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JMM1957
Guest
I think the church in the second picture may have gone out of business.
What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?
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PRmerger
Guest
Or maybe it’s expanding due to increased membership.
(And this increased membership is most likely composed mostly of ex-Catholics. :sad_yes:
I read somewhere that the largest group of Christians is Catholics, and then the next largest group is ex-Catholics. So very sad.)
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JMM1957
Guest
You know, you may be right, the ladder outside could be a sign of remodeling. And is that a dumpster in the foreground? :yup:
Or maybe it’s expanding due to increased membership.
(And this increased membership is most likely composed mostly of ex-Catholics. :sad_yes:
I read somewhere that the largest group of Christians is Catholics, and then the next largest group is ex-Catholics. So very sad.)
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clem456
Guest
Not true. Scripture is useful for correction, it is not required. There are violations of reason (aka common sense) which are useful for correction. Using scripture to correct a nonbeliever can actually hinder the effort. This is why it is essential to have the authoritative Church to help us integrate faith and reason (neither of which should be at odds with scripture).
Tradition cannot be secondary to scripture, or you would have no scripture. Consider…we do not believe in “Jesus the almighty book”, we believe in Jesus the Word made flesh. Jesus is a person not a book.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. Christians are a people of the Word–not a people of the Book, like Jews or Muslims.
We do not get our doctrines from a book, no matter how holy.
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PJM
Guest
Or receive the Sacrament of the Final Anointing; which very much like Sacramental Baptism perfects the Soul for Immediate access ; so long as they do not sin again before their death.
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clem456
Guest
Christ is the truth. He is the head of the Christian body and the source of everything that is. Scriptures reveal him, as does tradition, as does the living transmission that he left behind for us, aka Magisterium.
No Christian can avoid the truth that Christ is a person, who lived among persons, and charged them with the mission to tell His story. Before there was a New Testament, there was a campfire, with human faces gathered round. These human face had eyes and ears, and listened intently to our Lord Jesus. He died and rose and ascended to his father. The human faces spread the Good News of his person. The Gospel is a person, not just a book.
Jesus Christ is a person, not a book.
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In_His_Grace
Guest
Hi eazyduzit,
For the most part I’m with you. I’ve been considering Catholicism for about three years but it’s not likely I’ll ever convert though I do try to keep an open mind and will follow God wherever He leads me. By the way, it’s impossible to dialogue with Catholics from scripture alone as it’s just not part of their way of understanding, their beliefs, about God and His revelation of Himself to man. The following you may find helpful …
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965
- Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 2, 42, Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort. (7)
It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.
source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
Kudos and God bless you.
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zz912
Guest
Catholicism is like trying to drink from the fire hydrant.
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In_His_Grace
Guest
Ha! Interesting way of putting it.Catholicism is like trying to drink from the fire hydrant.
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zz912
Guest
Your wife will always be Catholic based upon her baptism. But she is not living out her Catholic faith.
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JMM1957
Guest
So, if someone disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture, its because their view is too slanted? If you or anyone else was confident in their understanding of Scripture, not just their personal understanding, but the understanding of the body of believers they associate with every Sunday, couldn’t someone accuse any of them of having a “so-called” slanted view?
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clem456
Guest
Yes it is clear, it is simple.
St John is a person who wrote the book, not just the name on the book. St John lives in Christ as a person even now. St John is not a dead letter. Can you see the difference?
The God you reference above is a person. The Son of God is a person. These persons are realities that are prior to scripture. Scripture reveals God, it is not the essence of God. Tradition reveals God, it is not the essence of God. God is himself a being. He is being itself, he identifies himself as “I Am”. The book cannot be the whole of your faith. That is idolatry and denies the relationship that is required between God who is a divine person and man who is a human person.
Faith must account for the interaction between these persons, between God and man, it is not merely an acknowledgement and adherence to the written word. This interaction between God and man is tradition. Tradition is not the same thing as “customs” or “disciplines”. Tradition and Scripture are inseparable as God’s revelation. Tradition is the living revelation of God to and through human beings, of which Christ was one. Christ has human nature and walked the earth in time and space. He did not land on the earth as a book.
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PJM
Guest
Permit me my friend to try again to point you in the direction wherein truth HAS to be singular per defined issue
FACTS [historically and biblically provable]
There is bit One true God
That One true God can [because even God con’t do otherwise]; Have just One set of Faith beliefs [OT & NT]
And Just as Yahweh choose only One Chosen people in the OT
Jesus choose Only One True protected and guided church in the NT [Mt 10: 1-8; Mt 16: 15-19; John 17: 11-26; Mt 28:16-20]
Eph. 4: 1-7
" I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity.Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body [MEANS just One Church] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord,** one faith**, [Means just that: One and Only One set of faith beliefs] one baptism.One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ
It is reasonable that Jesus would wait over 1,500 years for the Protestant Revolution to make known what have to be his singular truths? OF COURSE NOT
Evidence of One God, One Faith and One Church is proven by the THOUSANDS of differing understandings of JUST ONE truth. So if [Heaven forbid] the Catholic Church is not the ONE True Church; which one is and how do you prove it?
God Bless you,
Patrick
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clem456
Guest
The unity you speak of is reflected in the basic reality of Christianity, the Trinity.Permit me my friend to try again to point you in the direction wherein truth HAS to be singular per defined issue
FACTS [historically and biblically provable]
There is bit One true God
That One true God can [because even God con’t do otherwise]; Have just One set of Faith beliefs [OT & NT]
And Just as Yahweh choose only One Chosen people in the OT
Jesus choose Only One True protected and guided church in the NT [Mt 10: 1-8; Mt 16: 15-19; John 17: 11-26; Mt 28:16-20]
Eph. 4: 1-7
" I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity.Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body [MEANS just One Church] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord,** one faith**, [Means just that: One and Only One set of faith beliefs] one baptism.One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ
It is reasonable that Jesus would wait over 1,500 years for the Protestant Revolution to make known what have to be his singular truths? OF COURSE NOT
Evidence of One God, One Faith and One Church is proven by the THOUSANDS of differing understandings of JUST ONE truth. So if [Heaven forbid] the Catholic Church is not the ONE True Church; which one is and how do you prove it?
God Bless you,
Patrick
God is three distinct and unique persons, yet is a unity. So we are uniquely diverse human beings, yet we can and should be united.
Christ, as the head of his Church, has given himself up for his Church, that we may all be one. It is God’s will that we all be one. God’s desire for unity is not merely a desire for “good feelings” among us all. His will and desire is “of substance”. The unity God desires for us is substantial in time and space, it is not merely an ephemeral spiritual unity. Why does God’s unity require a substantial manifestation, or a Church? Because the word ecclesia means body of believers, and Jesus Christ is the Word made Body. Jesus Christ himself became “of substance”. Human substance.
This is the image we are created in. The substantial is an essential part of our unity. So we are asked to give our whole persons, body and soul, to unity. This must include obedience (listening) to others who have the charism of authority from Christ.
If Christ had not taken on human flesh, none of this would matter one bit.
J
JMM1957
Guest
This may be “the” classic proof text for OSAS. This sounds good until you look at verse 27, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” The word “follow” doesn’t only mean acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah or the Good Shepherd, but following him in his ways, which means believing in His Word, and NO SINNING. The major problem with believers in OSAS, is that they look at sin, their sin after being saved, as being non-existent in the view of God, because Jesus covers it all up with His sacrifice on the cross. Once you sin again after being “saved” you cease to be truly following Jesus, because Jesus has no part in sin. The only way Jesus will make good on His promises in verse 28 is “IF” you continue to follow Him.
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
The first century church taught the truth yes , but parts of the church began to drift from the truth, which was corrected,
Like I said many of the so called denominations are marginal/heretical not Protestant , many are splits on jurisdiction not creed , there is nowhere near 30,000 it’s more like 2000-4000 max , and this is the thing to remember denominations are just Subdivisions of the churches , like I said there are only 7 Churches that are Evangelical Catholic / Protestant .
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PRmerger
Guest
This is absolutely INCORRECT.
There are 100 churches,* each teaching different doctrines*, just within my metropolitan block.
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Refer to the part about marginal " denominations"
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PRmerger
Guest
Who decides what’s marginal and what’s not?
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