What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[In_His_Grace]

You have to know what the Word of God is first.

From where do you get the knowledge of what the Word of God is?

Answer: Sacred Tradition.

I disagree. Scripture is not a Catholic book. We don’t get the knowledge of what scripture is from the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition. God’s people, the church, distinguished scripture from other religious writings. God was involved in every step of the process. The canon of scripture was not created by the church rather the church discovered or recognized it. God’s word was inspired and authoritative from its inception, it “stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89) and the church simply recognized that fact and accepted it. Why would God speak to us via scripture and then fail to guide the church in recognizing and preserving His speech? God gave scripture to the church, period.

Blessings

 

[In_His_Grace]

And you can make a better argument for “what denomination” from Scripture as well as history?

Hi JMM1957,

All of God’s elect throughout all time wherever they may be are part of God’s ecclesia and includes denominations such as Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal non-denominational, home churches etc. etc etc. and yes, even the Catholic denomination, God’s elect may not be involved in any denomination at all.

In His Grace

 

[eazyduzit]

What is your version of “one must remain in Christ to be saved”? Do “your” personal sins (since being saved) have any effect on your ultimate salvation? Is it necessary for “you” to repent of your sins (since being saved) in order to continue to be saved?

As i have said, the Cross was a propitiation for the sins of the whole world. However, there is one sin that is unto death. It is to disbelieve. Your destiny depends on what you believe, not on sins, because everyone sins. But if you really are a true believer you won’t want to sin. Even if you’re stuck in an addiction, you realize it’s wrong. David was already struggling with himself before the prophet came to him. But he had never lost his salvation although his joy was gone.
Law keepers always want to know , what is the minimum I can do? But a real relationship with Jesus is more like a marriage. We don’t think in terms of what is the minimum i can do and still get by.

Shalom

 

[PRmerger]

You ask this question because you misunderstand the nature of God. He is not an inflexible law keeper like some of us. Rather, He is the Just Judge who understands all the implications much better than we. He is not like us. Because of His supernatural love and justice, all babies are saved and all children before they reach their own personal" age of reason".

So a baby is saved, and then loses his salvation at the age of reason, until he says the sinner’s prayer and is saved?

So…saved, lost, then saved?

To take it one step further, what about those who commit suicide? Will they be saved or lost according to YOUR theology?

Our theology says this: it’s beyond our paygrade to determine whether someone is lost.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree. Scripture is not a Catholic book. We don’t get the knowledge of what scripture is from the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition. God’s people, the church, distinguished scripture from other religious writings.

Well, if you want to call the early Church “God’s people”, that’s fine.

But it still means this: ** you trust in men**–NOT THE BIBLE–to tell you some very, very important things about the Word of God, namely: what is inspired and what is not inspired.

God was involved in every step of the process

Indeed. And this is nothing but a testament to the fact that you believe in Sacred Tradition–God guiding the Church in every step of the process of Sacred Tradition.

The canon of scripture was not created by the church rather the church discovered or recognized it.

Yes. That’s what Sacred Tradition is. It is receiving the kerygma through the guideance of God. NOT FROM THE BIBLE.

God’s word was inspired and authoritative from its inception, it “stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89)

Amen! Very Catholic, this.

and the church simply recognized that fact and accepted it.

Yep. That’s what Sacred Tradition is.

Why would God speak to us via scripture and then fail to guide the church in recognizing and preserving His speech?

You have just given a great apologia for your belief in Sacred Tradition.

God gave scripture to the church, period.

Blessings

Indeed. The Church came first. Then it discerned the canon of the NT…through…
Sacred Tradition.

You have in the above response given a very good expository for the working of the Holy Spirit in Sacred Tradition.

 

[Porknpie]

all babies are saved and all children before they reach their own personal" age of reason".

Please provide a scripture verse that supports these two beliefs.

To take it one step further, what about those who commit suicide? Will they be saved or lost according to YOUR theology?

They may be saved. They may not. We don’t know.

The Catechism’s words below:

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

[eazyduzit]

So a baby is saved, and then loses his salvation at the age of reason, until he says the sinner’s prayer and is saved?

So…saved, lost, then saved?

Our theology says this: it’s beyond our paygrade to determine whether someone is lost.

No, at birth one is unsaved. As the bible says, we are born in sin. Catholics understand this,
Which is why they want to baptise infants, but if one should die, they will be saved due to the mercy and the character of God. There is a special area in heaven for children that died a violent death due to war or whatever because they need special care. There is another for aborted babies. A just God would not let innocents end up in hell. That is unthinkable. It is also almost a smear on the justice of God to baptize infants because you think He might let that happen. Are men more merciful than God? Really?

 

[Porknpie]

My apologies Porknpie, we appear to have misunderstood one another.

No apologize were needed In His Grace. Just providing a little (name removed by moderator)ut from what I’ve observed on CAF.

I agree that Catholics are able to make a reasonable though very unconvincing argument for Catholicism from scripture (as well as history).

I’d say most reasonable… one reasonable question is what authority did men have in the 16th c., to disagree with the apostolic teaching of the Church, consistently so, for 1,500+ years?

That:

• Baptism was not salvific, but a symbolic profession of one’s faith?
• That baptism should be delayed to the age of reason?
• That the Eucharist was symbolic only, and not the actual Body and Blood of the Resurrected Christ?
• That there are only 66 books in the bible, and not 73?

Agreed, I also accept tradition (small t) BUT tradition must conform to the word of God.

Hmm. Catholic’s profess Tradition but are not bound to tradition. And the Word of God is not contained in a book. You won’t find that anywhere in the written Word. In fact, that written word itself conflicts with this thought, St Paul saying:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

And there is nothing in scripture, that conflicts with Tradition, for scripture itself comes from Tradition.

 

[Porknpie]

I disagree. Scripture is not a Catholic book. We don’t get the knowledge of what scripture is from the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition.

In His Grace, who were these men that met and discerned - led by the Holy Spirit - what was the Written Word?

Where did they meet?

In what year(s)?

What criteria did they use to discern what was and was not inspired and inerrant?

 

[eazyduzit]

Please provide a scripture verse that supports these two beliefs.

They may be saved. They may not. We don’t know.

The Catechism’s words below:

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

“We don’t know” is a good answer. That’s what the Pharisees answered when Jesus asked them about the baptism of John.

 

[eazyduzit]

No apologize were needed In His Grace. Just providing a little (name removed by moderator)ut from what I’ve observed on CAF.

I’d say most reasonable… one reasonable question is what authority did men have in the 16th c., to disagree with the apostolic teaching of the Church, consistently so, for 1,500+ years?

That:

• Baptism was not salvific, but a symbolic profession of one’s faith?
• That baptism should be delayed to the age of reason?
• That the Eucharist was symbolic only, and not the actual Body and Blood of the Resurrected Christ?
• That there are only 66 books in the bible, and not 73?

Hmm. Catholic’s profess Tradition but are not bound to tradition. And the Word of God is not contained in a book. You won’t find that anywhere in the written Word. In fact, that written word itself conflicts with this thought, St Paul saying:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

And there is nothing in scripture, that conflicts with Tradition, for scripture itself comes from Tradition.

If we see something unscriptural, then we have the same duty to disagree as Paul did with Peter.
The word of God is not to be added to. That is found in Pr.30:5,6 “Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

 

[opulumpu]

No, at birth one is unsaved. As the bible says, we are born in sin. Catholics understand this,
Which is why they want to baptise infants, but if one should die, they will be saved due to the mercy and the character of God. There is a special area in heaven for children that died a violent death due to war or whatever because they need special care. There is another for aborted babies. A just God would not let innocents end up in hell. That is unthinkable. It is also almost a smear on the justice of God to baptize infants because you think He might let that happen. Are men more merciful than God? Really?

What are your sources for all these fantastic claims: the Bible, perssonal revelation or ??? Please explain how a baby that died a violent death goes to a different part of heaven from one that was aborted. Don’t you consider abortion a violent death for the aborted baby. What kind of special care do babies who died a violent death need. Why will they need care since there is no suffering or inconvenience in heaven. How many parts does heaven have.

 

[eazyduzit]

No apologize were needed In His Grace. Just providing a little (name removed by moderator)ut from what I’ve observed on CAF.

I’d say most reasonable… one reasonable question is what authority did men have in the 16th c., to disagree with the apostolic teaching of the Church, consistently so, for 1,500+ years?

That:

• Baptism was not salvific, but a symbolic profession of one’s faith?
• That baptism should be delayed to the age of reason?
• That the Eucharist was symbolic only, and not the actual Body and Blood of the Resurrected Christ?
• That there are only 66 books in the bible, and not 73?

Hmm. Catholic’s profess Tradition but are not bound to tradition. And the Word of God is not contained in a book. You won’t find that anywhere in the written Word. In fact, that written word itself conflicts with this thought, St Paul saying:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

And there is nothing in scripture, that conflicts with Tradition, for scripture itself comes from Tradition.

What are your sources for all these fantastic claims: the Bible, perssonal revelation or ??? Please explain how a baby that died a violent death goes to a different part of heaven from one that was aborted. Don’t you consider abortion a violent death for the aborted baby. What kind of special care do babies who died a violent death need. Why will they need care since there is no suffering or inconvenience in heaven. How many parts does heaven have.

I mentioned this only as an illustration of the goodness of God. It has been independently reported by several people who have seen heaven.

Babies don’t automatically become mature by living in heaven. Young ones need help and personal love just as they do here.

 

[pablope]

I disagree. Scripture is not a Catholic book. We don’t get the knowledge of what scripture is from the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition. God’s people, the church, distinguished scripture from other religious writings.

Yes…and they were bishops of the Catholic Church, starting in AD 382 when the sifting began in earnest under the direction of Pope Damasus.

God was involved in every step of the process. The canon of scripture was not created by the church rather the church discovered or recognized it.

You are contradicting yourself here in your statement above. You said the church distinguished the scriptures from other writings…which is precisely how the canon came to be.

The canon of the Bible was developed from the desire of God’s people, the church…to have a standard set of readings to be read at the Divine Liturgy…that is how the church discovered. For this to be recognized, God’s people needed an authority to make this happen…and this authority were the bishops of the Catholic Church…starting with Pope Damasus in Ad 382.

God’s word was inspired and authoritative from its inception, it “stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89) and the church simply recognized that fact and accepted it.

But as you stated above…someone had to sift through the various writings to trim the writings that would eventually become the Bible.

Why would God speak to us via scripture and then fail to guide the church in recognizing and preserving His speech? God gave scripture to the church, period.

Blessings

So can you show how God gave the Scripture to the Church?

Actually, God, via the Holy Spirit, continues to guide the Church, not individuals to come up with their own interpretations.

God does not speak in via Scripture…He speaks via the Church. The Scripture cannot speak on their own…the Scriptures need a voice.

 

[In_His_Grace]

… History affirms that today’s CC is the One Founded by Jesus…

With Patrick’s statement above we are at the heart of the matter. Authority. This is what originally drew me to consider the Catholic Church. I’ve read many books by Catholic scholars and as of yet remain unconvinced that this is in fact true. Maybe one of our Catholic brothers or sisters at CAF will be the first, at least for me anyway, to prove that Patrick’s statement is true.

Blessings

 

[Porknpie]

If we see something unscriptural, then we have the same duty to disagree as Paul did with Peter.
The word of God is not to be added to. That is found in Pr.30:5,6 “Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

Then you would agree that nothing should be taken away from scripture.

Including the removal of 7 books, after 1,100 years of Christian belief.

 

[Porknpie]

“We don’t know” is a good answer. That’s what the Pharisees answered when Jesus asked them about the baptism of John.

Many times we don’t have a definitive answer. If scripture is silent, and there is no apostolic Tradition, the result is “we don’t know” for sure.

And we definitely can not add to, nor take away from scripture, to fit our own personal theology.

 

[Porknpie]

If we see something unscriptural, then we have the same duty to disagree as Paul did with Peter…

True this. That is a great reason to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, that the bread and wine become the resurrected Body and Blood of our Lord.

Just as scripture itself says.

Just as Jesus himself says.

And just as the Church has professed now for 2,000 years.

St. Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of St. John, the same St. John who wrote the Gospel and was taught by Jesus for three years.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Then men, 1,500 years later, without any authority whatsoever, took away from scripture, saying that Jesus was speaking symbolically.

 

[Porknpie]

With Patrick’s statement above we are at the heart of the matter. Authority. This is what originally drew me to consider the Catholic Church. I’ve read many books by Catholic scholars and as of yet remain unconvinced that this is in fact true. Maybe one of our Catholic brothers or sisters at CAF will be the first, at least for me anyway, to prove that Patrick’s statement is true.

Blessings

In His Grace,

Perhaps you could name what other Church existed for the first 1,000 years or so (understanding that the Orthodox split around 1,050)?

Where was this other Church?

What was it called?

 

[PRmerger]

No, at birth one is unsaved. As the bible says, we are born in sin. Catholics understand this,

Yes. You are correct.

Which is why they want to baptise infants, but if one should die, they will be saved due to the mercy and the character of God.

Bible verse for this, please?

There is a special area in heaven for children that died a violent death due to war or whatever because they need special care.

And for this!

There is another for aborted babies

And for this!

A just God would not let innocents end up in hell. That is unthinkable.

Absolutely true.

But, as you already said, no one is innocent. We are all born in sin, right–didn’t you just say that?

At least, until that cute little baby is baptized.

So at least the Catholic model makes sense.

It is also almost a smear on the justice of God to baptize infants because you think He might let that happen. Are men more merciful than God? Really?

Of course God is merciful. Very Catholic, this!