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Michael68
Guest
The NT was put together by the Catholic Church through the Oral Tradition already being taught.
What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?
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Cathoholic
Guest
Eazyduzit:
Do you affirm Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. CAN teach infallibly? Why or why not?
Once you deny this, then I will ask you, WHY you affirm Scripture. . . . OR . . . . Once you affirm this, then the question shifts to WHO can teach this way (and why did you say there is “no” such gift “listed in the Bible” when you are no asserting there is?).
Eazyduzit:
Eazyduzit:
QUOTE: Receiving any gift of the Spirit . . . depends on one’s . . . . willingness to prove himself worthy . . . .
IGotQuestions.
Your initial question concerned, “What is the difference in Protestants being “saved” and Catholic salvation?”
I think Eazyduzit’s statement helps in answering that question for you.
Now Protestants wouldn’t put it this way, but many of them (not all of them thankfully) seem to think they can “earn” their salvation or be “worthy” of grace or “any gift of the spirit” (grace of course is a gift of the Holy Spirit).
Eazyduzit:
When we “came forth” we earned our little “You Are Saved” card (all the while people in charge were telling us kids this is not “earning” salvation. Then they’d sit around and criticize Catholics for Baptism according to Jesus’ command because THAT WAS [according to them] earning salvation).
Catholics on the other hand teach . . . .
As Chapter VIII of Session 6 of the Council of Trent states:
COUNCIL OF TRENT
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, . . . without any merits on their part, they are called;
. . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
We are not “worthy” that the Lord should come under our roof. We cannot “merit” the grace of justification and I am hoping Eazyduzit walks back his comments about him being “worthy” of grace or clarifies (if I am misunderstanding him/her).
After we are justified, things change though (we then have channels of grace that we did not have before we were justified).
When we are justified, a REAL interior change occurs because of our Lord Jesus–something else incidentally, many [again not all] Protestants DENY – that a real actual change from receiving Christ in this special way* occurs [they assert there is a mere **covering of us by Christ but NOT a real actual interior change or an infused righteousness]).
Sure there is. If you want to begin a thread on it, I will back this point up.
Do you affirm Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. CAN teach infallibly? Why or why not?
Once you deny this, then I will ask you, WHY you affirm Scripture. . . . OR . . . . Once you affirm this, then the question shifts to WHO can teach this way (and why did you say there is “no” such gift “listed in the Bible” when you are no asserting there is?).
Eazyduzit:
(This is a partial truth)
Eazyduzit:
QUOTE: Receiving any gift of the Spirit . . . depends on one’s . . . . willingness to prove himself worthy . . . .
IGotQuestions.
Your initial question concerned, “What is the difference in Protestants being “saved” and Catholic salvation?”
I think Eazyduzit’s statement helps in answering that question for you.
Now Protestants wouldn’t put it this way, but many of them (not all of them thankfully) seem to think they can “earn” their salvation or be “worthy” of grace or “any gift of the spirit” (grace of course is a gift of the Holy Spirit).
Eazyduzit:
This “proving yourself worthy” routine was lived out when I was a kid and we “came forth” at a Bible camp campfire.
When we “came forth” we earned our little “You Are Saved” card (all the while people in charge were telling us kids this is not “earning” salvation. Then they’d sit around and criticize Catholics for Baptism according to Jesus’ command because THAT WAS [according to them] earning salvation).
Catholics on the other hand teach . . . .
As Chapter VIII of Session 6 of the Council of Trent states:
COUNCIL OF TRENT
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, . . . without any merits on their part, they are called;
. . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
We are not “worthy” that the Lord should come under our roof. We cannot “merit” the grace of justification and I am hoping Eazyduzit walks back his comments about him being “worthy” of grace or clarifies (if I am misunderstanding him/her).
After we are justified, things change though (we then have channels of grace that we did not have before we were justified).
When we are justified, a REAL interior change occurs because of our Lord Jesus–something else incidentally, many [again not all] Protestants DENY – that a real actual change from receiving Christ in this special way* occurs [they assert there is a mere **covering of us by Christ but NOT a real actual interior change or an infused righteousness]).
- "Receiving Christ in this special way" = Baptism.
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andrewstx
Guest
I think I am getting where you are coming from. The first church I choose for myself was a
ALC Lutheran church. I still remember reading in the small cathecism that baptism forgives sin. That stuck with me and still does.
A few years later I began listening to THE LUTHERAN HOUR a program with Oswald Hoffman. And that sounded more Baptist. I got more and more confused…
Now I tend to trust Jon for Lutheran doctrine.
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PRmerger
Guest
How so?
Very Catholic, this!
Indeed. That’s Catholic teaching right there.
As is this.
And this.
And this is nothing but a correct articulation of the Catholic teaching on infallibility!
You do believe that men who are fallible can write infallible things.
#thatswhatinfallibilityis
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PRmerger
Guest
This “somehow” has a name, eazy: it’s called the charism of infallibility.
Well, if it’s not true of Sacred Tradition, then you cannot have any certainty that the Gospel of Matthew is theopneustos but the Gospel of Barnabas is not.
Very Catholic this.
Now this ^^…this is contrary to Scripture. For Scripture states that the “sure foundation” is…
the Church.
You’ve been duped into believing a man-made tradition, eazy, that says that Scripture is the “sure foundation”.
But you can read Genesis through Revelation, and you’ll never find that in a single page.
Some man said it, who heard another man say it, who heard another man say it…but no one read that Scripture is the “sure foundation” in the Bible.
Of course, Scripture does state that it is the Word of God (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness–2 Timothy 3:16)…but it doesn’t state it’s the "sure foundation’.
What the “sure foundation” is, according to the Bible is…
the Church.
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth–1 Timothy 3:15
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benhur
Guest
Interesting that it is scripture that tells you that.
This “somehow” has a name, eazy: it’s called the charism of infallibility.
Well, if it’s not true of Sacred Tradition, then you cannot have any certainty that the Gospel of Matthew is theopneustos but the Gospel of Barnabas is not.
Very Catholic this.
Now this ^^…this is contrary to Scripture. For Scripture states that the “sure foundation” is…
the Church.
You’ve been duped into believing a man-made tradition, eazy, that says that Scripture is the “sure foundation”.
But you can read Genesis through Revelation, and you’ll never find that in a single page.
Some man said it, who heard another man say it, who heard another man say it…but no one read that Scripture is the “sure foundation” in the Bible.
Of course, Scripture does state that it is the Word of God (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness–2 Timothy 3:16)…but it doesn’t state it’s the "sure foundation’.
What the “sure foundation” is, according to the Bible is…
the Church.
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth–1 Timothy 3:15
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benhur
Guest
I thought the Holy Spirit took care of the two , not Peter ?
Did Peter also run the council ?
It is the style of magisterium, the evolving of it as it stands today, that people question, not that there is no magisterium, no authority, no teaching.
Blessings
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powerofk
Guest
Not really. Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture cannot contradict each other. Remember, when it was decided which Christian writings were Sacred Scripture and which were not, one of the first requirements was to decide whether the writing conflicted with teachings that had been handed down for centuries. This meant that the Gospel of John was included, while the Gospel of Thomas was not.
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JMM1957
Guest
What’s so surprising about that?
J
JMM1957
Guest
Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.”
1 Cor. 4:15, “For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
1 Thess. 5:12, "But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work.
1 Peter. 5:2, “Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.”
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eazyduzit
Guest
What is the Church? It is made of men. No men, however holy, can ever be God’s sure foundation. This is very dangerous thinking. This is why Paul told the Galatians that they were not to put confidence in him,but rather in his gospel message as it was fist delivered, be it himself or an angel of God who would say any other thing. God had his way of confirming His word with signs and wonders . You might preach the Gospel of Thomas all day long, but God will not confirm it
This “somehow” has a name, eazy: it’s called the charism of infallibility.
Well, if it’s not true of Sacred Tradition, then you cannot have any certainty that the Gospel of Matthew is theopneustos but the Gospel of Barnabas is not.
Very Catholic this.
Now this ^^…this is contrary to Scripture. For Scripture states that the “sure foundation” is…
the Church.
You’ve been duped into believing a man-made tradition, eazy, that says that Scripture is the “sure foundation”.
But you can read Genesis through Revelation, and you’ll never find that in a single page.
Some man said it, who heard another man say it, who heard another man say it…but no one read that Scripture is the “sure foundation” in the Bible.
Of course, Scripture does state that it is the Word of God (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness–2 Timothy 3:16)…but it doesn’t state it’s the "sure foundation’.
What the “sure foundation” is, according to the Bible is…
the Church.
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth–1 Timothy 3:15
To make man equal to the Word is the most dangerous thing ever. Why? It leaves a door open for Satan. If you don’t believe this is possible, then read the true 3rd prophecy of Fatima, that the popes would never reveal, because it shows how corrupt the Church can become by listening to itself.This is how cults work. People think their leaders have something special from God. Then people can be easily manipulated. This is why there is no gift or charism of “infallibility” in the Bible. God knows that we are dust(Ps103). The light of the world is God’s Word. It is the only sure thing.
God’s Word does not depend on the inspiration of men. It is independently inspired of itself. Even a donkey could speak the Word if necessary. His word is the source of life. Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Mt4:4.
A man who has a high view of the Word of God will never fail.
J
JMM1957
Guest
easy, do you believe in the apparitions of Mary at Fatima?What is the Church? It is made of men. No men, however holy, can ever be God’s sure foundation. This is very dangerous thinking. This is why Paul told the Galatians that they were not to put confidence in him,but rather in his gospel message as it was fist delivered, be it himself or an angel of God who would say any other thing. God had his way of confirming His word with signs and wonders . You might preach the Gospel of Thomas all day long, but God will not confirm it
To make man equal to the Word is the most dangerous thing ever. Why? It leaves a door open for Satan. If you don’t believe this is possible, then read the true 3rd prophecy of Fatima, that the popes would never reveal, because it shows how corrupt the Church can become by listening to itself.This is how cults work. People think their leaders have something special from God. Then people can be easily manipulated. This is why there is no gift or charism of “infallibility” in the Bible. God knows that we are dust(Ps103). The light of the world is God’s Word. It is the only sure thing.
God’s Word does not depend on the inspiration of men. It is independently inspired of itself. Even a donkey could speak the Word if necessary. His word is the source of life. Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Mt4:4.
A man who has a high view of the Word of God will never fail.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
Scripture does tell us some things.
But not everything.
Surely you already knew that Catholics believe in Scripture, yeah?
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PRmerger
Guest
I am sorry, eazy. But that is exactly what the Bible says. The Church is God’s “sure foundation.”
You have such an entrenched man-made tradition that even though I know you love and accept Scripture, you are willing to profess something so contrary to Scripture.
The Bible is not the sure foundation.
The Church is.
And either way, even if we concede that the Bible were the sure foundation, it would still have been written by men, and put together by men…(Catholic men, BTW)…and that would still be a problem for you if you believe what you posted above.
Now, you may say, “Well, these men were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And that’s why the Bible is the ‘sure foundation’.”
And we say, “Yep. That’s exactly why you can believe that the Church, full of men, can be the ‘sure foundation’. They don’t act on their own but with the assistance of the HS.”
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JMM1957
Guest
Definition of “dominion”: Power and influence over others.
Definition of “lord it over”: Domineer over, act arrogantly toward, to direct and control someone.
You incorrectly understand the role of the Magisterium easy, you keep wanting to compare it to a dictatorship (definition: a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.) Why is it you only want to take the “negative” view of authority? The verses I gave you above in post # 861 reflects how the Magisterium works.
And when it comes to infallibility on issues of faith and morals, let me just ask you this, did the 12 Apostles and Paul believe that the Gospel they were preaching was infallible?
“For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” 1 Thess. 1:5
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benhur
Guest
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Michael68
Guest
We are not a cult!What is the Church? It is made of men. No men, however holy, can ever be God’s sure foundation. This is very dangerous thinking. This is why Paul told the Galatians that they were not to put confidence in him,but rather in his gospel message as it was fist delivered, be it himself or an angel of God who would say any other thing. God had his way of confirming His word with signs and wonders . You might preach the Gospel of Thomas all day long, but God will not confirm it
To make man equal to the Word is the most dangerous thing ever. Why? It leaves a door open for Satan. If you don’t believe this is possible, then read the true 3rd prophecy of Fatima, that the popes would never reveal, because it shows how corrupt the Church can become by listening to itself.This is how cults work. People think their leaders have something special from God. Then people can be easily manipulated. This is why there is no gift or charism of “infallibility” in the Bible. God knows that we are dust(Ps103). The light of the world is God’s Word. It is the only sure thing.
God’s Word does not depend on the inspiration of men. It is independently inspired of itself. Even a donkey could speak the Word if necessary. His word is the source of life. Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth o a high view of the Word of God will never fail.
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benhur
Guest
Good response ez.What is the Church? It is made of men. No men, however holy, can ever be God’s sure foundation. This is very dangerous thinking. This is why Paul told the Galatians that they were not to put confidence in him,but rather in his gospel message as it was fist delivered, be it himself or an angel of God who would say any other thing. God had his way of confirming His word with signs and wonders . You might preach the Gospel of Thomas all day long, but God will not confirm it
To make man equal to the Word is the most dangerous thing ever. Why? It leaves a door open for Satan. If you don’t believe this is possible, then read the true 3rd prophecy of Fatima, that the popes would never reveal, because it shows how corrupt the Church can become by listening to itself.This is how cults work. People think their leaders have something special from God. Then people can be easily manipulated. This is why there is no gift or charism of “infallibility” in the Bible. God knows that we are dust(Ps103). The light of the world is God’s Word. It is the only sure thing.
God’s Word does not depend on the inspiration of men. It is independently inspired of itself. Even a donkey could speak the Word if necessary. His word is the source of life. Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Mt4:4.
A man who has a high view of the Word of God will never fail.
Key word that comes to mind is “conditionality”. As you kind of say, truth is its own authority. The church is authoritative and a foundation only where she is right as per your gospel of Thomas analogy. Peter had no authority when he was two faced with the Jews and called out by Paul. But when Peter was properly aligned with truth (per his previous vision) ,he had authority , as shown in council of Jerusalem on similar matter. Quite conditional.
His Word as you say is perfect, and constant. Yes, His truth rests upon the church (as it did on Israel once) but that is not to say sometimes imperfect and not constant things compete to rest on her also. (and of course the church uses His Word to help discern the difference).
Blessings
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Michael68
Guest
I can’t believe anybody is still using this baseless accusation. Why are people entertaining an individual that is accusing us of being a cult?
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JMM1957
Guest
The Church has something special from God…Truth. When individuals themselves try to interpret Scripture, you end up with thousands upon thousands of different interpretations, which is what we have today.What is the Church? It is made of men. No men, however holy, can ever be God’s sure foundation. This is very dangerous thinking. This is why Paul told the Galatians that they were not to put confidence in him,but rather in his gospel message as it was fist delivered, be it himself or an angel of God who would say any other thing. God had his way of confirming His word with signs and wonders . You might preach the Gospel of Thomas all day long, but God will not confirm it
To make man equal to the Word is the most dangerous thing ever. Why? It leaves a door open for Satan. If you don’t believe this is possible, then read the true 3rd prophecy of Fatima, that the popes would never reveal, because it shows how corrupt the Church can become by listening to itself.This is how cults work. People think their leaders have something special from God. Then people can be easily manipulated. This is why there is no gift or charism of “infallibility” in the Bible. God knows that we are dust(Ps103). The light of the world is God’s Word. It is the only sure thing.
God’s Word does not depend on the inspiration of men. It is independently inspired of itself. Even a donkey could speak the Word if necessary. His word is the source of life. Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Mt4:4.
A man who has a high view of the Word of God will never fail.
So, you are incorrect when you say there is no special gift or infallibility given to the Church, there is, the Holy Spirit. And it is Biblical, “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” John 16:13.
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