What is the Earliest Dogmatic text condemning abortion?

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;12643197:

Weareyoung;12642427:

This is just a quick question.

Can someone please tell me what the earliest dogmatic (infallible) text is (from the proximate rule of faith, i.e., approved or promulgated by a Roman Pontiff) which explicitly condemns abortion?

There is a false premise in your question. The false premise is that everything True is defined dogmatically. Dogma are not defined as dogmatic until there is some question as to the subject, and then the issue generally continues unresolved for an extended period. Since, from earliest times, abortion was known to be the intrinsic evil of killing and innocent child in her mothers womb, it was never dogmatically defined. The very idea that it is licit to kill and innocent child was first propagated in law barely 50 years ago.

It was not my intention to make an assertion. I was honestly interested in finding out more about what the Popes have taught on this matter and if the Popes have condemned abortion with the fullness of their authority.

Hi weareyoung,

I wasn’t criticizing, just addressing the apparent presumption that everything is dogmatically proclaimed whenever a truth is determined. As I pointed out above, they are not defined as dogmatic until there is some question as to the subject, and if the issue continues questioned even in the face of the Truth of the situation for an extended period.

Again, abortion was undeniably known to be the intrinsic evil of killing and innocent child in her mothers womb from the very beginning.

 

[Weareyoung]

No religious dogma is necessary however to establish the immorality of killing human beings.

I agree.

 

[on_the_hill]

I’m not sure of the intent of your question. It doesn’t really matter.

I think OP’s intent is clear and simple: he (she?) wanted to know what the earliest dogmatic text condemning abortion is.

It doesn’t matter that the Greeks wrote about it in the B.C. years, or that it ties into the Ten Commandments, or that it’s always been regarded as intrinsically evil. OP wanted to know what Catholic dogmatic source first stated. it.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Do you acknowledge the portions on faith and morals of Trent as infallible?

The Catholic Church does not acknowledge them as infallible, so neither do I (I am hardly qualified to make this determination apart from the Magesterium of the Church). The minute the Catholic Church makes this distinction manifestly evident, I will accept it as infallible. But, even though it has not been recognized as infallible, I accept it COMPLETELY because it is authoritative. That is not the same as infallible, but it is equally as binding upon the guy in the pew. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE to the guy in the pew.

Do you acknowledge *Unam Sanctam *as infallible?

No. ibid.

According to Trent dogmatic statements are for all people, to determine truth from error

They certainly are. That doesn’t make them infallible. All Catholics are expected to accept ALL Church doctrine. Whether or not it has been defined as infallible is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the guy in the pew. Only a small handful of Church teachings have been acknowledged, by the Church, as infallible. To the average layperson, it would not matter if NOTHING had ever been defined as infallible, and it would make no difference if the Church had never even defined infallibility (and I wish it hadn’t - it just confuses people).

INFALLIBILITY IS IRRELEVANT TO EVERYBODY EXCEPT A HANDFUL OF THEOLOGIANS ANC CANON LAWYERS.

It makes no difference to you or I.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I was having a discussion with my friend who thought that he only has to accept “ex cathedra statements” which is clearly false.

This is the whole reason why I wish the Church had never defined infallibility or acknowledged anything as infallibility taught. Some people think it matters. It doesn’t. It never did. It’s not like people were free to reject ALL Papal teaching before Vatican-1.

And people STILL try to apply their Vatican-1 checklists to determine, in their own judgment, which teachings PRIOR to Vatican-1 were infallibly proclaimed. I guarantee you that you or I are not considered qualified, by the Church, to make this distinction.

When the Church says

No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident. [Code of Canon Law, #749 §3]

I guarantee that the Church is not saying it is manifestly evident to you or I (but not to Tom or Joe). And now, you and I are getting out our Kaptian Katholik DeKoder rings and trying to prove to Tom and Joe that *Unam Sanctam *is (or is not) infallible, when it doesn’t make a bit of difference to any of us.

 

[Ignatius]

It doesn’t matter that the Greeks wrote about it in the B.C. years, or that it ties into the Ten Commandments, or that it’s always been regarded as intrinsically evil. OP wanted to know what Catholic dogmatic source first stated. it.

Actually, as StevenFrancis pointed out No religious dogma is necessary however to establish the immorality of killing human beings

No religious dogma is necessary however to establish the immorality of killing human beings.

 

[steve_b]

Abortion is murdering a human child, at the child’s most vulnerable.

Take it back to the command of God Himself, Exodus 20 verse 13
5. You shall not murder

bible.oremus.org/

Of course the Church speaks for God,
but God’s own words are the source of that teaching.

good answer

I would just add, Pulling from the OT, applying it to your response

Dt 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life

Abortion = choose death.

 

[StevenFrancis]

INFALLIBILITY IS IRRELEVANT TO EVERYBODY EXCEPT A HANDFUL OF THEOLOGIANS ANC CANON LAWYERS.

It makes no difference to you or I.

Thank you. Very good, and important point. It shouldn’t be a stumbling block against, nor even a reason FOR one’s membership in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[steve_b]

This is just a quick question.

Can someone please tell me what the earliest dogmatic (infallible) text is (from the proximate rule of faith, i.e., approved or promulgated by a Roman Pontiff) which explicitly condemns abortion?

I like Ron’s answer too

#10

 

[StevenFrancis]

DavidFilmer;12643906:

INFALLIBILITY IS IRRELEVANT TO EVERYBODY EXCEPT A HANDFUL OF THEOLOGIANS ANC CANON LAWYERS.

It makes no difference to you or I.

Thank you. Very good, and important point. It shouldn’t be a stumbling block against, nor even a reason FOR one’s membership in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the average parishoner.

 

[steve_b]

DavidFilmer;12643906:

Thank you. Very good, and important point. It shouldn’t be a stumbling block against, nor even a reason FOR one’s membership in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the average parishoner.

It most certainly** IS** important, and it’s important for the faithful to know it. If Infallibility isn’t in the Catholic Church on faith and morals, and it could make mistakes in those areas, then how could the Catholic Church possibly be the pillar and foundation of truth ? [1 Timothy 3:15](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+3:15&version=RSVCE)

 

[steve_b]

INFALLIBILITY IS IRRELEVANT TO EVERYBODY EXCEPT A HANDFUL OF THEOLOGIANS ANC CANON LAWYERS.

It makes no difference to you or I.

It most certainly** IS** relevant. And it DOES make a difference to EVERYONE!

Everyone needs to know that when teaching on faith and morals, the Church is infallible. This is NOT for only a handful of theologians to know.

• Everybody needs to know and should know this protection from error is there
• they should know why that protection from error is there
• and who gives that protection from error.
• That’s just good catechesis

It’s what makes the Catholic Church the pillar and foundation of truth [1 Timothy 3:15](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+3:15&version=RSVCE) and gives the faithful the kind of confidence error free teaching provides…

 

[StevenFrancis]

It most certainly** IS** important, and it’s important for the faithful to know it. If Infallibility isn’t in the Catholic Church on faith and morals, and it could make mistakes in those areas, then how could the Catholic Church possibly be the pillar and foundation of truth ? [1 Timothy 3:15](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+3:15&version=RSVCE)

Also a very good point. In retrospect, I should likely have not posted in this thread, because I see the point from your perspective as well as that of the other poster I was tacitly agreeing with. In any event, I believe it’s very important, but also wouldn’t want it to keep someone from exploring the Church, or getting themselves into RCIA or anything. Authority and infallibility become self evident as someone honestly approaches conversion.

 

[steve_b]

This doctrine was uncontested in the Church until recently, so you find a definitive judgment from the Roman Pontiff on the issue–the teaching of the universal, ordinary Magisterium was sufficient.

However, in more recent times this truth has come under attack. As a result, in the encyclical Evangelium Vitae, St. John Paul II notes that “the Cardinals unanimously asked me to reaffirm with the authority of the Successor of Peter the value of human life and its inviolability, in the light of present circumstances and attacks threatening it today.”

And so he did:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

If this is not manifestly evident of a definitive and infallible judgment by the Roman Pontiff in his role as successor of Peter proclaiming a doctrine of morals for the whole Church, then nothing is, IMO.

Excellent point. I noticed no one responded to this, so I wanted to give you kudos for this point you make.

Originally Posted by St. John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae
Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being.

The language used by the pope (emphasis mine) for defining an infallible doctrine is there.

nice going

 

[TimothyH]

You shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13)

 

[steve_b]

You shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13)

**Actually the word there in vs 13 is murder which is what abortion is. . **לֹ֥֖א תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח׃ ס