What is the earliest time a vigil can begin?

[ccmcmg]

I must clarify that the neighboring diocese that has the 2:30 PM Saturday afternoon Mass labels it at “meets Sunday obligation”, not as a vigil Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

It is what it is.

Yes, and it’s “vespere” not “post meridiem” or anything else in Canon Law (as far as the obligation is concerned.)

Or in the case of official vigils, “nocte.” (I believe).

 

[Phemie]

The earliest time a Vigil Mass can begin is at whatever time the pastor wishes to schedule it.
The on the ground reality is that definitions, past practices etc. mean nothing.
Our local Vigil Mass begins at 3:30 and dusk did not occur here until after 7:30, more than four hours after Mass began.
It is what it is.

Only the Easter Vigil has to start at night.

Saturday ‘evening’ Masses are supposed to not start until 4 p.m. based on the definition of ‘evening Mass’ in the 1953 document Christus Dominus which allowed such Masses in the first place and forbid their celebration before 4 p.m.

 

[FrDavid96]

The actual time seems to vary by jurisdiction. The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, 1995 has:What is “the evening of the previous day”? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 PM) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say 5 or 6 PM…

Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus e.g. if in such a diocese a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on Saturday, that person would have fulfilled the obligation … of this canon [1248]

The author is changing the plain meaning of the words of the canon. The canon says “evening” but the author says “early afternoon.”

Evening doesn’t begin at mid-day.

If the canon read “mid-day” the author would have a valid point. It does not.

We cannot go through canon law with a pen, cross out one word and write in something else.

And let’s remember that those words are nothing more than the author’s personal interpretation. The text has no force of law.

I did read the article years ago. The author completely changes the plain meaning of the canon. The canon doesn’t read “mid-day” (for that matter, it doesn’t say evening either) it says “vespere” which is Latin for 4 PM.

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes, and it’s “vespere” not “post meridiem” or anything else in Canon Law (as far as the obligation is concerned.)

Or in the case of official vigils, “nocte.” (I believe).

As far as the “proper vigils” like Pentecost and Christmas, the rubrics say that they can be used on the day before, without a requirement to wait until night; in fact, they can be used either before or after Evening Prayer 1. The Mass text can be used, but my opinion is that we shouldn’t use the word “vigil” unless the Mass itself is indeed in the night.

 

[FrDavid96]

Actually, Father, it was in 1955 when the proper times were restored for the Triduum celebrations, the Easter Vigil included. This was a major part of Ven. Pius XII’s restored Holy Week rites.

Right. Thanks. I typed too quickly, thinking of the “new” changes to the calendar (ok, new as in 40 years old )

 

[Vico]

The author is changing the plain meaning of the words of the canon. The canon says “evening” but the author says “early afternoon.”

Evening doesn’t begin at mid-day.

If the canon read “mid-day” the author would have a valid point. It does not.

We cannot go through canon law with a pen, cross out one word and write in something else.

And let’s remember that those words are nothing more than the author’s personal interpretation. The text has no force of law.

I did read the article years ago. The author completely changes the plain meaning of the canon. The canon doesn’t read “mid-day” (for that matter, it doesn’t say evening either) it says “vespere” which is Latin for 4 PM.

SinceThe New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, and Thomas J. Green
andThe Canon Law: Letter & Spirit (1995, Sheehy, Morrisey, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Canadian Canon Law Society)
are both respected commentaries on Canon Law, and they do not agree, tolerance may be the answer.

Following are translations on the Vatican website. Notice that the German translation uses “Vorabend” (Eve), rather than “der Nachmittag” (afternoon) or “der Abend” (evening), which seems to be the figurative use which is broader.

 

[ProVobis]

SinceThe New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, and Thomas J. Green
andThe Canon Law: Letter & Spirit (1995, Sheehy, Morrisey, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Canadian Canon Law Society)
are both respected commentaries on Canon Law, and they do not agree, tolerance may be the answer.

Following are translations on the Vatican website. Notice that the German translation uses “Vorabend” (Eve), rather than “der Nachmittag” (afternoon) or “der Abend” (evening), which seems to be the figurative use which is broader.

Yes, but I think it was Br JR who pointed out that Rome doesn’t operate under English Law (or German Law) for that matter, regardless of their translations. I think we make the mistake of thinking otherwise.

 

[Aramis]

The CIty of Fairbanks (seat of the Diocese of Fairbanks) won’t have sunset until 21:45hrs on Easter (19 April) 2014… but at Christmas it will be 14:42hrs 24 Dec 2014…

And Barrow (in the same diocese) will have no sunrise for Christmas day (nor until Jan. 23 2015)… and easter will have sunset at 23:08hrs.

In some places, you have to simply give an administrative decision to have anything resembling common sense. In Alaska, last I heard, the three Roman dioceses used 17:00hrs as the earliest start for anticipated masses and 21:00 as the earliest for use of the formal vigil masses. The local roman parish has typically had an 20:00hrs anticipated mass, a 23:00 vigil mass (and parking issues), an 0800hrs and 1100hrs masses on the holy day for both easter and christmas

 

[Vico]

Yes, but I think it was Br JR who pointed out that Rome doesn’t operate under English Law (or German Law) for that matter, regardless of their translations. I think we make the mistake of thinking otherwise.

Yes, lots of dispensations are given.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy and dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university, notes the evening requirement in passing in his answer to a question regarding attendance at the Orthodox liturgy.

**Sunday Precept and the Orthodox Divine Liturgy
**

…
A Latin Rite Catholic may fulfill the precept by attending any Catholic Mass from Saturday evening through all day Sunday.
Many, but not all, canonists state that Saturday evening means after 4 p.m.; others say after 12 noon. In some dioceses the bishop has determined the hour by decree, and this is a legitimate exercise of his authority in an area that has not been determined by the Holy See.
The Latin Catholic fulfills the Sunday precept even if the liturgy celebrated was not that of the corresponding Sunday, for example, if he attended a wedding, funeral or even an evening Saturday Mass in a religious community which habitually celebrated its daily Mass in the evening…

 

[FrDavid96]

SinceThe New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, and Thomas J. Green
andThe Canon Law: Letter & Spirit (1995, Sheehy, Morrisey, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Canadian Canon Law Society)
are both respected commentaries on Canon Law, and they do not agree, tolerance may be the answer.

Following are translations on the Vatican website. Notice that the German translation uses “Vorabend” (Eve), rather than “der Nachmittag” (afternoon) or “der Abend” (evening), which seems to be the figurative use which is broader.

The vernacular translations can be a useful tool, but they have no force of law. Only the Code in Latin is what really matters. Regardless of how “vespere” might be rendered into a vernacular, the only definition that counts is the Latin definition.

Now, what we have to acknowledge is the fact that the Roman method of calculating hours was different from our own. While we have fixed hours of 60 minutes, they divided the day into 12 equal night hours and 12 equal day hours.

I think what we truly need here is clarification from the Holy See on just what the law means. I respect the authority of the local ordinary to interpret and apply the law; yet I very much think that we need some definitive clarification so that we have consistency throughout the world. It just doesn’t make sense that a person who lives near a diocese line might go to Mass in one parish and fulfill the obligation, but go to another parish and not-fulfill it.

We need clarity.

 

[ProVobis]

I think what we truly need here is clarification from the Holy See on just what the law means. I respect the authority of the local ordinary to interpret and apply the law; yet I very much think that we need some definitive clarification so that we have consistency throughout the world. It just doesn’t make sense that a person who lives near a diocese line might go to Mass in one parish and fulfill the obligation, but go to another parish and not-fulfill it.

We need clarity.

I agree but maybe the Holy See intended for the local bishops to make decisions based on local laws and customs. I think we in the U.S. especially are used to reading the law based on precise times, such as someone’s term expiring at 12:00 pm EDT per some pendulum or atomic clock in Colorado (or wherever). Other countries are perhaps not so precise and provide leeway or make their laws conditional. As you say, vespere translates into the English “evening,” but AFAIK, “evening” doesn’t exactly have a legal definition under English law.

I don’t know how vespere translates into other languages but again they’re only translations, each one taking on its own nuance. I think we forget that the 1917 Latin Code of Canon Law was deliberately not officially translated into vernacular and probably for good reasons. The venue of avoiding mistranslations was chosen over the laity’s being able to understand and use the law in their legal terms, or at least it seems that way.

 

[TARRAT]

I am attending a gathering of catholic men in Pittsburgh on April 12th. It will be having a Palm Sunday vigil mass with Bishop David Zubik at 3:00. At least that is the time as advertised.

 

[FrDavid96]

I agree but maybe the Holy See intended for the local bishops to make decisions based on local laws and customs. I think we in the U.S. especially are used to reading the law based on precise times, such as someone’s term expiring at 12:00 pm EDT per some pendulum or atomic clock in Colorado (or wherever). Other countries are perhaps not so precise and provide leeway or make their laws conditional. As you say, vespere translates into the English “evening,” but AFAIK, “evening” doesn’t exactly have a legal definition under English law.

I don’t know how vespere translates into other languages but again they’re only translations, each one taking on its own nuance. I think we forget that the 1917 Latin Code of Canon Law was deliberately not officially translated into vernacular and probably for good reasons. The venue of avoiding mistranslations was chosen over the laity’s being able to understand and use the law in their legal terms, or at least it seems that way.

But still, it doesn’t matter what “evening” means, or what any other language uses as the equivalent of evening. Even though evening doesn’t have an established, legal definition in English, the word “vespere” does have a definite meaning in Latin.

But that both clears things and confuses them. Vespere is actually the start of the 4th hour after mid-day, or 2 hours before sunset (the onset of the night hours, and the start of the next day). That’s if we use the ancient system of exactly 12 hours per night and 12 per day. So, we have one Latin definition of evening as calculated by the position of the sun, but another modern one according to today’s clocks (of equal-length hours).

I just wish we had some clarity. I could envision a system where it’s left somewhat to the local bishop. After all, if it’s after sunset (like in much of Alaska in December) I think we can say that evening has certainly begun, regardless of what the clock says. But if we’re in a tropical zone and the sun is just barely past its zenith, there’s just no way that anyone could justify calling that “evening.”

If Rome decides to change the canon to be “midday” instead of evening, I would have no problem with that.

Anyway, rather than start a new post, I’ll just continue with this one.

The whole “evening begins at noon” thing really gets to me (if you haven’t noticed) because the reasoning to justify it is such a complete distortion of canon law.

It’s been a while since I’ve read it, but the argument goes like this:

1. We follow the vernacular translation of the code, not the Latin (first mistake).
2. We ignore any proper definition of evening (2nd)
3. We use a slang definition of evening (that’s 3 if you’re counting).

The whole argument is being presented by someone who is not even from the United States who tries to use a U.S. Southern slang usage of the word evening. One which is itself anachronistic. Only older people use it that way, so it’s not just slang, it’s outdated slang. Someone is watching too many reruns of Dukes of Hazzard (on BBC maybe?), and then interpreting canon law through Uncle Jesse. What more can I say?

If someone could show me other examples of where vernacular slang is used to interpret canon law, and that usage is considered acceptable, I’d like to see it.

 

[malphono]

If Rome decides to change the canon to be “midday” instead of evening, I would have no problem with that.

I would. The use (and correct interpretation) of “vespere” seems to me to fit the bill much better. And that precisely because it’s based on the “old” reckoning of the day in 2 equal parts. Saying the “4th hour post-meridiem” is clearer to me than using “midday” (which, in the temperate zones – which comprise most of the globe) is closer to the 6th hour). This is one of those cases where I think it’s best to leave well enough alone.

 

[Vico]

Historically, 1917 canon law 821.1 did not allow mass begun after 1PM. Allowing the mass to fulfill the obligation on the previous day was created in order to make it easier to fulfill the obligation, especially for inflexible work schedules, such as shift work. Three circumstances were recognized (see CLD 4: 277 ff.) (See Christus Dominus of Pope Pius XII, 1953 which mitigated some of the 1917 canon law 821.1)1. shift work in certain industries
2. seaport workers that work on holy days of obligations
3. religious or social festivity of great numbers of people from distant places

In 1957 Pope Pius XII (Sacram Comunionem) extended mass times in the afternoon to every day, but restricted to four PM or later. In 1964 it was allowed to fulfill the Sunday obligation at a mass after first Vespers on Saturday. When the canon law was revised in 1983, the commission intentionally left the canon vague, when asked stated: “Consulto formula generalis adhibetur ut casuistica et anxietates vitentur.”

See Adolfo N. Dacanay, S.J. - ‎1992 The time of the “anticipated” Sunday mass: an introductory comment on c. 1248

 

[ProVobis]

[/INDENT]In 1957 Pope Pius XII (Sacram Comunionem) extended mass times in the afternoon to every day, but restricted to four PM or later. In 1964 it was allowed to fulfill the Sunday obligation at a mass after first Vespers on Saturday. When the canon law was revised in 1983, the commission intentionally left the canon vague, when asked stated: “Consulto formula generalis adhibetur ut casuistica et anxietates vitentur.”

See Adolfo N. Dacanay, S.J. - ‎1992 The time of the “anticipated” Sunday mass: an introductory comment on c. 1248

The decline of church attendance started in the late 50’s and further in 1964 so action taken by the Vatican makes sense.