What is the Eastern Orthodox stand on abortion, human cloning, and so-called same-sex "marriage"?

[sainthumbert]

Nine-Two and Misplaced Book, thank you both for your responses!!

“Why is it that the Catholic Church makes an exception for NFP, which though not involving modern medicine, nonetheless works to frustrate procreation within the sanctity of marriage?”

The Catholic Church makes the exception for NFP because God makes the exception. God made women with monthly fertility and non-fertility. If spouses decide not to have relations at certain times does that constitute “frustrating procreation?” Is not having relations with a spouse the exact same as having contraceptive relations with a spouse? The latter is certainly “frustrating procreation” but can the former really be put in the same category?

“What is the moral difference between a pill and charts/calendars?”

The difference is that one takes self-restraint and the other does not require any self-restraint or sacrifice. The difference is that God built infertile periods into a women’s cycle but God didn’t build a prophylactic into a women’s body for use anytime a baby is not desired.

“We are still thwarting “God’s plan” whether it is out of a box or on a clipboard. It is a distinction without a difference.”

No. The spouses are not thwarting God’s plan in the case of abstaining. They are not having relations. How can a non-act be considered the same as a contraceptive act?

“I would gently point out that even NFP and its predecessor, the Rhythm Method was also condemned.”

Please show me where the Catholic Church condemned the rhythm method. I will start looking but maybe you can point me right there. Thanks.

 

[prodromos]

Sainthumbert, do you know that in the Orthodox Church, we fast for approximately half the year, not including fasts prior to receiving Holy Communion. Do you know that apart from abstaining from eating meat and dairy as well as oil and alcohol, we also abstain from sexual relations? If we were to use only the methods allowed by the Catholic Church and wished to space our children, do you understand that there would only be a few infertile periods during the year when couples are not fasting?
Do Catholics also abstain from sexual intercourse when they are fasting, and how often do you fast?

 

[Nine_Two]

Once more (and I promise I’ll give up): If the primary purpose of marriage and sexual relations is procreation, than NFP is certainly frustrating that purpose just as someone taking an oral contraceptive is.

 

[livingwordunity]

Once more (and I promise I’ll give up): If the primary purpose of marriage and sexual relations is procreation, than NFP is certainly frustrating that purpose just as someone taking an oral contraceptive is.

The difference is that NFP is natural and has no side-effects, and NFP can also be used to help women get pregnant. It helps a woman to know her body. Artificial contraception has only on purpose and that is to prevent conception and, as a back up, to cause a micro abortion after conception occurs. Also, all one has to do is to pay attention to what they say are all the potential side-effects from being on the pill which include death.

 

[prodromos]

The difference is that NFP is natural and has no side-effects, and NFP can also be used to help women get pregnant.

This does not address the point raised. Perhaps one should ask whether Catholics use NFP primarily to avoid pregnancy or to conceive? If they are using it to avoid pregnancy then they are engaging in sexual intercourse with a view that opposes procreation. Is that not true?

 

[Nine_Two]

The difference is that NFP is natural and has no side-effects, and NFP can also be used to help women get pregnant. It helps a woman to know her body. Artificial contraception has only on purpose and that is to prevent conception and, as a back up, to cause a micro abortion after conception occurs. Also, all one has to do is to pay attention to what they say are all the potential side-effects from being on the pill which include death.

Don’t bring abortion into this. The Orthodox Church (all of them) strictly oppose anything that would kill an already fertilized egg. We are in fact in complete agreement with the Catholic Church on this. If you are going to claim to be for unity don’t seek division where there is none.

The issue against NFP isn’t its use to help get pregnant. Most people who are trying to get pregnant use a woman’s fertility cycle to do so (Christian, Atheist, Jew, Hindu, or Other). This isn’t a point of contention. The argument is against using it specifically to prevent pregnancy.

Pills do have side effects. All pills have side effects. But if you’re going to argue that is the reason to avoid them in this case, why are you allowed to take them in other cases? Given that the Church’s position is taken on a moral ground (or at least that is how it is presented), why are pills with side effects (and even Tylenol can kill you) allowed in the Church? Clearly it can not be the dangers posed by the pills themselves that are at issue.

The issue then comes back to preventing a human life from forming - which NFP does by specifically avoiding sex during that period.

I know I promised I’d give up after that last post, but apparently I’m a liar.

 

[livingwordunity]

The issue then comes back to preventing a human life from forming - which NFP does by specifically avoiding sex during that period.

But, avoiding sex for a period of time isn’t unnatural. Saint Paul even recommends it for a married couple. And no Christian Church accepted contraception as morally permissible before 1930.

1 Corinthians 7:5

“Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.”

NFP vs. Contraception

“Isn’t NFP the same as contraception if a married couple is using it to postpone or avoid a pregnancy that they are not ready for?”

The short answer is “No.” The reason is, contraception involves the deliberate frustration of the marriage act; NFP does not. In some ways, that may seem like a small difference, but in reality, the difference is huge and very important.

Traditionally, the Catholic Church has always taught that married couples have the right to “plan” their families, provided this is done in a responsible and just manner, and is done with the proper motivation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of births. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. (emphasis in original text)

So, it is not “birth regulation” that the Church opposes, but selfishness and any immoral means of accomplishing that.

Father Richard Hogan has written: “Some people think that a decision by a couple to time their acts of love in order to space children using NFP is the same as the decision by a couple to avoid pregnancy through contraception. This is a confusion of purposes and means. The purpose may be the same, but the means are different. The NFP couple delaying another pregnancy and the contraceptive couple delaying a pregnancy are engaging in two radically different acts…The NFP couple, while engaging in non-procreative intercourse by making use of the infertile times, give themselves to each other totally and completely as they are at that moment. The contracepting couple withholds their fertility from each other in an anti-procreative act and do not give themselves totally. Remember, love is defined as a total self-gift…Further, the contracepting couple alters either both of their bodies or one of them, and in doing so they violate the integrity of their own bodies.” (The Human Body…a sign of dignity and a gift, page 9)

Author Christopher West addresses the difference between contraception and NFP in his book, Good News About Sex & Marriage:

Suppose there were a religious person, a nonreligious person, and an antireligious person walking past a church. What might each do?

Let's say the religious person goes inside and prays, the nonreligious person walks by and does nothing, and the antireligious person goes inside the church and desecrates it. (I'm framing an analogy, of course, but these are reasonable behaviors to expect.) Which of these three persons did something that is always, under every circumstance, wrong? The last, of course.

Husbands and wives are called to be procreative. If they have a good reason to avoid pregnancy, they are free to be non-procreative. But it's a contradiction of the deepest essence of the sacrament of marriage to be anti-procreative.

To use West’s terms, NFP couples are both procreative and non-procreative, depending upon what parts of the cycle they choose to have marital relations. Contracepting couples are always anti-procreative. (Source)

Contraceptive drugs (including “the pill”) act in three major ways: 1st, they prevent the release of the egg from the ovaries; 2nd, they thicken the mucus in the reproductive tract, making it more difficult for the sperm to reach the egg; and 3rd, should the egg manage to be released and fertilized, thus forming a new human being, they cause the wall of the uterus to prevent implantation, thus causing the new child to be aborted. (Source)

 

[prodromos]

Do you Catholics also abstain from sexual intercourse when you are fasting, and how often do you fast?

 

[livingwordunity]

Do you Catholics also abstain from sexual intercourse when you are fasting

I think it would be appropriate to abstain from sexual intercourse while fasting, but I don’t think the Church teaches that it’s mandatory.

how often do you fast?

Catholics are required to fast for at least one hour before receiving Holy Communion at Mass. And other than that:

The practice of abstinence (doing without certain things) goes back to the Old Testament and the Jewish dietary laws which were carried over into parts of the early Christian church until the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The theological reasoning is that it is a method of atoning for sin since chastising the body brings it under control of the spirit. Abstinence is first mentioned in a Church document in a decree of the Council of Toledo in the year A.D. 447 where the custom was to abstain primarily from meat on all Fridays and on days of penance. Canon 1251 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law prescribes “abstinence from meat, or from some other food as decided upon by the Episcopal Conference (conference of bishops) on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.” The National Conference of Catholic Bishops of the United States made abstinence from meat mandatory on Ash Wednesday and all Fridays of Lent and recommended that it be observed on all Fridays of the year but has allowed individual Catholics to substitute another penance on Fridays if they could not abstain from meat. For purposes of abstinence, fish is not considered to be meat because it comes from a cold-blooded animal rather than a warm-blooded one. Secondarily, early Christian art and literature used fish as a symbol of the Eucharist because the Greek word for fish, ichthus, is an acrostic (the first letters form the word) for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.” The 40 days of Lent (Sundays are excluded from the count since we celebrate the resurrection of the Lord on this day) signify the change which we wish to make in our life. Throughout Holy Scripture, the number 40 signifies a time of change. During this time abstinence from something, whether it be sweets, coffee or TV is an offering to God and a method of prayer. Every time we are tempted by whatever we have decided to abstain from, we are to remind ourselves that we have given this up for God so that He can bring us closer to Him. (Source)

 

[prodromos]

I think it would be appropriate to abstain from sexual intercourse while fasting, but I don’t think the Church teaches that it’s mandatory.

Are you able to find out?

Catholics are required to fast for at least one hour before receiving Holy Communion at Mass.

For Orthodox it is the day before, or at the very least from sundown

The practice of abstinence (doing without certain things) goes back to the Old Testament and the Jewish dietary laws which were carried over into parts of the early Christian church until the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The theological reasoning is that it is a method of atoning for sin since chastising the body brings it under control of the spirit. Abstinence is first mentioned in a Church document in a decree of the Council of Toledo in the year A.D. 447 where the custom was to abstain primarily from meat on all Fridays and on days of penance. Canon 1251 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law prescribes “abstinence from meat, or from some other food as decided upon by the Episcopal Conference (conference of bishops) on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.” The National Conference of Catholic Bishops of the United States made abstinence from meat mandatory on Ash Wednesday and all Fridays of Lent and recommended that it be observed on all Fridays of the year but has allowed individual Catholics to substitute another penance on Fridays if they could not abstain from meat.

For Orthodox it is every Wednesday and Friday because Jesus was betrayed on the Wednesday and crucified on the Friday. Exceptions are the periods immediately after Easter and Christmas where there is no fasting on any day.

For purposes of abstinence, fish is not considered to be meat because it comes from a cold-blooded animal rather than a warm-blooded one.

For Orthodox, any animal which has blood is considered as meat. Fish is only allowed if a major feast day falls during a fasting period. Seafoods such as shellfish, squid, octopus and prawns etc are considered as fasting foods because they are bloodless.

Secondarily, early Christian art and literature used fish as a symbol of the Eucharist because the Greek word for fish, ichthus, is an acrostic (the first letters form the word) for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.”

I haven’t heard that the fish was used as a symbol for the eucharist. Is there any source included in the article?

The 40 days of Lent (Sundays are excluded from the count since we celebrate the resurrection of the Lord on this day) signify the change which we wish to make in our life. Throughout Holy Scripture, the number 40 signifies a time of change.

Lent in the Orthodox Church goes for eight weeks and only counts the week days as the Sabbath and Sunday are not technically part of Lent. Eight times five equals forty. We still fast on the weekend but the fast is relaxed, allowing consumption of alcohol and the use of oil in meals.

During this time abstinence from something, whether it be sweets, coffee or TV is an offering to God and a method of prayer. Every time we are tempted by whatever we have decided to abstain from, we are to remind ourselves that we have given this up for God so that He can bring us closer to Him.

The Church has determined what we are to abstain from, although that can be adjusted due to health and circumstances under the guidance of our spiritual father.

Is it becoming clear that we Orthodox are already held to a much higher standard than that required of Catholics? NFP might be fine in the Catholic discipline but it would put Orthodox in a position where they can only have sexual intercourse a few times a year if they were spacing their children. Ideally, our marriage relationship will mature spiritually such that we will live chaste lives together and only have intercourse for the purpose of procreation. Most of us are not there yet though.

Do you think it is right for Catholics to pass judgment on Orthodox praxis when Catholics don’t even do the half of what is required of us?

 

[sainthumbert]

Thank you Orthodox commentators.

NINE-TWO, there are many threads that debate the difference between NFP and contraceptives. Either Casti Connubii or Humanae Vitae or both specifically address the topic as well. I don’t have much interest (or the time) to debate that specific point right now. The key to keep in mind is that the sexual act cannot be frustrated when there is no involvement of the sexual faculties. To say so would be saying that every time you sit down to eat dinner you are frustrating the sexual act!!

PRODROMOS makes the argument that the Orthodox fast and abstain from relations many days of each year. Therefore, if contraceptives are not permissible, then the Orthodox spouses will have very few days left during the year to have relations. The argument is poor because it bases the morality of an action (contraception) on the number of time spouses can have relations.

PRODROMOS makes the argument that those who use NFP engage “in sexual intercourse with a view that opposes procreation.” To make this argument, you would also have to allege that those who are post menopause who engage in relations are opposing procreation.

My original question remains. Why does the Eastern Orthodox now permit contraceptives when they were not permitted by any Christians since the beginning of Christianity? We don’t even need to argue the merits of NFP or contraception to address this question. The question is how can something be true in one age but not another? How can something be gravely sinful in one age but not another?

As I stated earlier, I cannot find anything that says the Catholic Church ever forbid the rhythm method. I have certainly seen several quotes from Church fathers that would be directly opposed to the rhythm method but Church fathers can be wrong.

There is a good article about Orthodox and contraceptives here:

orthodox-christianity.com/2011/11/orthodoxy-and-contraceptiona-change/

 

[Nine_Two]

I think that article makes some excellent points about the prevention of birth, which is why it should only be done with the advice of a spiritual father under certain circumstances.

However many of those patristic arguments similarly would cover NFP.

I think it all goes back to the purpose of marriage, of sex, being procreation. Utilizing measures for stopping that from becoming reality is sin according to the letter of the law. According to the spirit it is sin without good reason.

 

[livingwordunity]

My original question remains. Why does the Eastern Orthodox now permit contraceptives when they were not permitted by any Christians since the beginning of Christianity? We don’t even need to argue the merits of NFP or contraception to address this question. The question is how can something be true in one age but not another? How can something be gravely sinful in one age but not another?

I doubt you’ll get an answer to that question.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

I doubt you’ll get an answer to that question.

Sure you will.

All contraception was denounced by The Early Church Fathers who bothered to address it at all. They did not differentiate between methods.

The same question could be asked of the Latins. The Rhythm Method was not universally accepted in 1930. Many interpreted Pius XIs Casti Conubii as covering the Rhythm Method as well. It wasn’t until Pius XII where you had “clarification” and it evolved down to the present position.

We would invoke the principle of Economia and the Authority of the Church on these matters.

01

 

[Nine_Two]

Sure you will.

All contraception was denounced by The Early Church Fathers who bothered to address it at all. They did not differentiate between methods.

The same question could be asked of the Latins. The Rhythm Method was not universally accepted in 1930. Many interpreted Pius XIs Casti Conubii as covering the Rhythm Method as well. It wasn’t until Pius XII where you had “clarification” and it evolved down to the present position.

We would invoke the principle of Economia and the Authority of the Church on these matters.

01

I think the answer they are waiting on is, “Our position is wrong.”

 

[sainthumbert]

Thanks again all Orthodox commentators. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this matter with you!

I guess I don’t see any real effort by any of you to defend the moral good of contraceptives. The argument seems to be more of, “Well, then the Catholic Church is wrong too because they allow natural family planning.” It seems like you wouldn’t even deny that the Orthodox Church held one truth yesterday and a new truth today.

I guess I will have to re-read Casti Connubii to see if I can spot the condemnation of natural family planning.

Have a joyful Christmas!! I assume you all celebrate Christmas at the same time as we do.

 

[dvdjs]

I think the answer they are waiting on is, “Our position is wrong.”

No: your position has changed, and the change is wrong.
However one might like to invoke economy, the fact is that EOs, with their change, are the complicit with the modern contraceptive culture which has led to great evil.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m a bit confused…

Being freed from an inclination (same-gender attraction) seems to be the same as changing orientation (same-gender attraction).

One may conquer sexual urges (ie: resisting temptation and not acting upon the urges), but the inclination is still there…

It is a matter of chastity. Heterosexuals are called to the same chastity. It is not the inclination that matters, necessarily, as a single heterosexual must also conquer sexual urges even though the inclination is there. I would agree that resisting temptation and not acting upon the urges is the real healing, whether heterosexual or homosexual.

 

[Nine_Two]

Thanks again all Orthodox commentators. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this matter with you!

I guess I don’t see any real effort by any of you to defend the moral good of contraceptives. The argument seems to be more of, “Well, then the Catholic Church is wrong too because they allow natural family planning.” It seems like you wouldn’t even deny that the Orthodox Church held one truth yesterday and a new truth today.

I guess I will have to re-read Casti Connubii to see if I can spot the condemnation of natural family planning.

Have a joyful Christmas!! I assume you all celebrate Christmas at the same time as we do.

No one used the argument that the Catholic Church is also wrong if contraceptives are wrong.

You were given an answer and then it was pointed out that the Catholic Church had a troubling policy.

 

[livingwordunity]

No one used the argument that the Catholic Church is also wrong if contraceptives are wrong.

You were given an answer and then it was pointed out that the Catholic Church had a troubling policy.

The policy of the Catholic Church on contraception has never changed. NFP, as taught by the Catholic Church, is basically what St. Paul taught when he said, “Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.” - 1 Corinthians 7:5