What is the forum's take on "interfaith" efforts

[protestantinca]

Maybe the different religions are not as incompatble as you think they are? For instance the main difference between Muslims and Catholics is the belief in the trinity. But many Christians don’t believe in the Trinity either!

I would be cautious about declaring any religion as false, because you will be setting yourself up for a major if not devastating disappointment when the Christ returns - you may find that he cares as much about those ‘fa!se’ believers and does not think of you as more special.

Gee, it takes guts to say that. The main difference between Christianity and Islam is the divinity of Jesus, not the Trinity (intimately linked to Islam’s denial of Jesus’ death and resurrection). Those who call themselves “Christians” but who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus are not proper Christians. Despite their differences, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants who are deserving Christians agree that Jesus was divine, of the same essence as God the father.

That is one of the reasons I consider Islam to be a false religion (and in fact, any self described form of Christianity that denies Jesus’ divinity). The divinity of Jesus is key to understanding both His death and resurrection. Jesus is the way God told humanity he understands what’s like to be human and to suffer the most horrible of punishments for standing up for the truth. Islam doesn’t offer that, rather, a system of rewards and punishments that exists for the sole reason of pleasing Allah. The theology of Islam and Christianity could not be more different.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Gee, it takes guts to say that. The main difference between Christianity and Islam is the divinity of Jesus, not the Trinity (intimately linked to Islam’s denial of Jesus’ death and resurrection). Those who call themselves “Christians” but who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus are not proper Christians. Despite their differences, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants who are deserving Christians agree that Jesus was divine, of the same essence as God the father.

That is one of the reasons I consider Islam to be a false religion (and in fact, any self described form of Christianity that denies Jesus’ divinity). The divinity of Jesus is key to understanding both His death and resurrection. Jesus is the way God told humanity he understands what’s like to be human and to suffer the most horrible of punishments for standing up for the truth. Islam doesn’t offer that, rather, a system of rewards and punishments that exists for the sole reason of pleasing Allah. The theology of Islam and Christianity could not be more different.

In the same vein, the theology of Judaism and Christianity could not be more different; or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or even certain kinds of self-proclaimed Christianity.

 

[protestantinca]

In the same vein, the theology of Judaism and Christianity could not be more different; or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or even certain kinds of self-proclaimed Christianity.

True, which is why I am a Christian and not a Muslim, Jew, Hindu or Buddhist .

 

[openmind77]

Gee, it takes guts to say that. The main difference between Christianity and Islam is the divinity of Jesus, not the Trinity (intimately linked to Islam’s denial of Jesus’ death and resurrection). Those who call themselves “Christians” but who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus are not proper Christians. Despite their differences, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants who are deserving Christians agree that Jesus was divine, of the same essence as God the father.

That is one of the reasons I consider Islam to be a false religion (and in fact, any self described form of Christianity that denies Jesus’ divinity). The divinity of Jesus is key to understanding both His death and resurrection. Jesus is the way God told humanity he understands what’s like to be human and to suffer the most horrible of punishments for standing up for the truth. Islam doesn’t offer that, rather, a system of rewards and punishments that exists for the sole reason of pleasing Allah. The theology of Islam and Christianity could not be more different.

If recognizing the divinity of Jesus is what makes a religion ‘true’ and all who don’t are ‘false’ ones, then according to you, Judaism is a ‘false’ religion.

Actually whether someone considers Jesus divine or not may be important to you, but I don’t think Jesus himself particularly cares - what is important to him is whether you follow his teachings.

 

[protestantinca]

If recognizing the divinity of Jesus is what makes a religion ‘true’ and all who don’t are ‘false’ ones, then according to you, Judaism is a ‘false’ religion.

Actually whether someone considers Jesus divine or not may be important to you, but I don’t think Jesus himself particularly cares - what is important to him is whether you follow his teachings.

Sure, I also think that Judaism -understood as the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah predicted by the Old Testament- is a false religion.

With respect to Jesus not caring, I couldn’t disagree more. I staunchly reject the position of those who think that they care about Jesus’ teachings as they pertain to “how to lead your life” but reject His divinity. In Matthew 16 Jesus is very clear to Peter that His church is built on Peter’s saying to Jesus “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God”.

If Jesus is not the Son of God, His teaching in other areas of life is completely pointless: an opinion which is as good as anybody else’s opinion. If He is the Son of God, then His teaching is the binding Word of God.

 

[openmind77]

Sure, I also think that Judaism -understood as the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah predicted by the Old Testament- is a false religion.

With respect to Jesus not caring, I couldn’t disagree more. I staunchly reject the position of those who think that they care about Jesus’ teachings as they pertain to “how to lead your life” but reject His divinity. In Matthew 16 Jesus is very clear to Peter that His church is built on Peter’s saying to Jesus “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God”.

If Jesus is not the Son of God, His teaching in other areas of life is completely pointless: an opinion which is as good as anybody else’s opinion. If He is the Son of God, then His teaching is the binding Word of God.

If you are already convinced that Judaism is a ‘false’ religion then why worry so much about Islam? Actually those two religions are very similar.

But Muslims also believe in Jesus as a true prophet of God (I don’t think all Jews believe that). So does that make Islam a ‘truer’ religion than Judaism?

 

[protestantinca]

If you are already convinced that Judaism is a ‘false’ religion then why worry so much about Islam? Actually those two religions are very similar.

But Muslims also believe in Jesus as a true prophet of God (I don’t think all Jews believe that). So does that make Islam a ‘truer’ religion than Judaism?

Judaism and Islam could not be more different. You are focusing on the surface, not the content.

Theologically speaking, Judaism is closer to Christianity in the sense that while it doesn’t accept Christ as the Messiah, it doesn’t override Jesus with other things either. Jews are “still waiting” and indifferent to whatever Jesus said.

Muslims go beyond that by explicitly rejecting Jesus as the Son of God and then adding their own “final revelation” that distorts and denies the gospel.

So I’d argue that actively denying the gospel (Islam’s position) is worse than being indifferent to it.

 

[mlz]

I don’t see the differences among Christians to be much of a problem if we proclaim Christ as taught within the Apostles or Nicene Creeds. While each may consider that they have the teachings that will bring one closer to Christ - the importance lies in whether they proclaim Christ crucified, dead, buried and risen as written in prophecies of the Old Testament and look for the ultimate return of Him to take us to eternity with Him.

Our focus should be on those outside of the Christian faith and is extremely important as it’s Jesus’ commandment to go out and preach the Gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. While we spend time with “infighting” how many souls are being lost either by our example or by not sharing the gospel with them.

I don’t have a problem with us taking the opportunity to debate here in the CA forums because I have found that, while we are different in many areas, we share the one important truth of celebrating God sending His Son into the world as He promised beginning just after the Fall and continuously in Old Testament scripture. The debating here on CAF is a good place to sharpen our Sword of Truth in order to proclaim the Good News and learning from each other. All else is adiaphora.

Let’s by all means continue to sharpen our swords by debating doctrine of each denomination but let’s all remember to do it in the love of Christ so that we’re prepared to go out in the world in whatever way we can to bring those with unbelief into the circle of Love God shared with us when He allowed His son to be crucified in order to bring all (if possible) to a saving faith in Him.

God bless all!! Let’s get out and share our Good News!

In Christ’s love,

Rita

It must be understood what those creeds mean… Although I never understood before, it now is clear that Holy Mother Church for whom these creeds profess is in One, Holy ,Catholic and Apostolic Church… Which was then and is now the Catholic Church!!! That is the Christian witness!!! Alleluia!
mlz

 

[openmind77]

Judaism and Islam could not be more different. You are focusing on the surface, not the content.

Theologically speaking, Judaism is closer to Christianity in the sense that while it doesn’t accept Christ as the Messiah, it doesn’t override Jesus with other things either. Jews are “still waiting” and indifferent to whatever Jesus said.

Muslims go beyond that by explicitly rejecting Jesus as the Son of God and then adding their own “final revelation” that distorts and denies the gospel.

So I’d argue that actively denying the gospel (Islam’s position) is worse than being indifferent to it.

That is very confusing - you are saying that acknowledging Jesus as a true prophet but not divine (which is the Muslim view) is far worse than considering him just an ordinary preacher (the jewish view)? If Muslim had been ‘indifferent’ to Jesus that would have made it a better religion??

In what way are Judaism and Islam different anyway (leaving out the total rejection of Jesus by Judaism)?

 

[PRmerger]

Those who call themselves “Christians” but who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus are not proper Christians.

Just curious–who gets to decide whether someone is a “proper” Christian?

Is there a list of beliefs that one must believe in order to be considered a “proper” Christian?

 

[protestantinca]

That is very confusing - you are saying that acknowledging Jesus as a true prophet but not divine (which is the Muslim view) is far worse than considering him just an ordinary preacher (the jewish view)? If Muslim had been ‘indifferent’ to Jesus that would have made it a better religion??

In what way are Judaism and Islam different anyway (leaving out the total rejection of Jesus by Judaism)?

Sure, Jesus knew that people would ignore Him and he was fine with that. What Islam does is different: it does not ignore Him, it distorts completely what He said in ways that explicitly contradict His original message.

I cannot find who exactly said this for the first time, but there is a quote in the Christian tradition that says that Islam is either “the final revelation by God” (the Islamic view) or “the ultimate heresy” (the Christian view).

When talking about the differences between Islam and Judaism you cannot “leave out” the rejection of Jesus by Judaism and the misappropriation of Jesus by Islam since the latter is core to Islam (together with the anointment of Muhammad as the last prophet).

Your profile says you are Hindu and therefore you might not be familiar with the core teachings of Christianity (I don’t say this as disrespect; I have met many people from India and I thought that what is common knowledge over here is also common knowledge over there but I was wrong). Christianity is fundamentally about acknowledging Jesus as the son of God and recognizing His death and resurrection as the ultimate divine sacrifice (basically the content of the Nicene creed). The so called “law” (ie rules for daily life) are subordinate to the contents of the Nicene creed even for Catholics that acknowledge “works” as “means of grace”.

In that regard, that the “rules” of Islam bear some resemblance to the “rules” or Orthodox Judaism is a very minor point (it’s the “surface”, not the “content”). Theologically speaking, Islam does not recognize any Messiah (as Judaism does), only the prophets (making Jesus ones of them) and says that Muhammad is God’s final prophet. That’s the core difference that makes Islam and Judaism be so different. And since Judaism is indifferent to Jesus, it is, in my opinion, a lesser offender to Jesus than Islam.

 

[protestantinca]

Just curious–who gets to decide whether someone is a “proper” Christian?

Is there a list of beliefs that one must believe in order to be considered a “proper” Christian?

1st Corinthians 15:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZK.HTM

Long to read, but it will answer your questions. The reference to the “son” is in verse 28, but you need to read the whole thing.

 

[MaryT777]

True, which is why I am a Christian and not a Muslim, Jew, Hindu or Buddhist .

Do you are your synod have an opinion on the eternal fate of those who are not proper Christians?

Mary.

 

[hasantas]

"It is fallacious reasoning to use embarrassing incidents to claim that they “prove” a particular religion is false. "

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but my arguments to claim that all religions outside Christianity are false are nothing of that sort

You are so fanatic on your thought. Maybe you are the most true one but you cannot help anyone in that excessive manner.

The excessive love/advocacy for someone/something blind the eyes for faults of lover. And the excessive hostility blind eyes for kindness and fairness of adversary.

Every belief have some true and facts so we cannot deny a belief totaly. We can say that some part of it is wrong. But that does not mean that entirely of it is wrong. So if Islam or any other religion does not accept some part of Christianity then that does not mean those are wrong.

The main difference between ıslam and Christianity is in Trinity. Trinity include the divinity, sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus.

There have been thousand prophets and those had never said anything about Trinity. The Trinity is not declaration of faith in Gospels. But Trinity is a Doctrine of Churc which is established from strained interpretation from Gospels. If trinity was so obvious in Bible and in Quran did not say that is a excessive degree in faith I would believe in. But I can say countless conflicts about trinity. So you must convince me but not to blame me. Salam!

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

If Jesus is not the Son of God, His teaching in other areas of life is completely pointless: an opinion which is as good as anybody else’s opinion. If He is the Son of God, then His teaching is the binding Word of God.

Good Morning Protestantinca: It’s good to hear from you again. I have a question if I may. With His words, Jesus taught about such tings as loving others and feeding the hungry and providing clothing and shelter for the most destitute among us. With his actions, he taught about caring for the sick, visiting the lonely and forgiveness and a host of other useful and sensible things. Are these teachings pointless, and are they only relevant if they come from some authority who has the ability to reward or punish you? If we follow the teachings of Jesus only because of His authority or His position as Son of God, would the root cause of our being Christians simply be a desire for reward in heaven and fear of punishment in hell, or perhaps just the desire to live forever? And if these are our motives, how much did we learn by listening to the words of Jesus, and how worthy are we of being His disciples? How worthy are we then of heaven? I ask this because we already knew how to want things and to fear things and to work the system to gain what we want and avoid what we don’t want long before Jesus came along.

All the best,
Gary

 

[pnewton]

I think we can gain a little humility when we consider that God is transcendent in nature. What we know of God is but a drop in the bucket. The Jewish drop and the Islamic drop is less than our drop, but the difference in between what we know and the area in which others are wrong is infinitesimal in comparison to the gap between what the most contemplative saint knows about God, and what God is. We are like ants arguing over who is the tallest and closest to the top of a redwood.

 

[spedteacherita]

Do you are your synod have an opinion on the eternal fate of those who are not proper Christians?

Mary.

Hi, Mary!

Could you clarify for me what you mean by “proper” Christians? Do you mean those who do not attend church and are not involved in the sacraments? Or, do you mean those who state they are Christians but do not have a church home - but just state they are Christian.

I want to make sure that when I try to answer this that I’m working on the right area.

Thanks and have a blessed day!

Rita

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, Mary!

Could you clarify for me what you mean by “proper” Christians?

I think this is a reference to protestaninca’s definition which was those “who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus” are NOT proper Christians.

 

[PRmerger]

1st Corinthians 15:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZK.HTM

Long to read, but it will answer your questions. The reference to the “son” is in verse 28, but you need to read the whole thing.

I see.

Can someone be a “proper Christian” if he affirms the divinity of Christ but denies, say, that baptism saves you?

What about if he denies that Sunday is the Lord’s day but affirms that Christ is divine?

Or if he affirms that Sunday is the Lord’s day but denies that the soul is immortal?

I guess my point is: where is this list of what makes someone a “proper Christian”?

(Please don’t say: it’s found right here: vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM

I’d like a list of what we must believe in order to be considered proper. And where this list comes from. And who has the authority to determine if someone is abiding by this list or not.)

 

[spedteacherita]

Do you are your synod have an opinion on the eternal fate of those who are not proper Christians?

Mary.

I cannot point to a specific reference in the LCMS’ on people who die without knowing their true hearts. We can basically “hope” that they knew Christ in the last minutes before they are taken for us.

I think many of us would focus on what we see on the outside but not what could be going inside as they recognize they have only moments left with death imminent. They could be recanting the sinful acts of their life for all we know.

If their sins have not been recanted they may not enter the Kingdom of heaven. But, if like the thief on the cross they realize that they have led an improper life, they can take those precious moments to confess their sins to God

I hope others with more knowledge of our doctrines in this area can help and give a more detailed elaboration of what the LCMS stance is as to the question you asked concerning those who are not “proper” Christians.