What is the Goal of Jihad?

[Jay53]

Jay53;4627967:

The point isn’t really to change your opinion… it’s to validate it.

Here is an example. Suppose we pass by a house everyday, and I tell you that the inside of that house is painted blue. You could believe me, or not believe me. I could tell you that I heard from someone who heard from someone and so on that the inside of the house is painted blue. I could even show you pictures of blue walls and claim they are the inside of that house. And you could believe me.

Or you could go up to that house and look inside. Maybe the house would be blue–and you would have seen it with your own eyes to prove it!

Or you could just believe me. But how would you know

that the inside of the house is blue, without looking for yourself?

Very good point, although I don’t think I need my opinion validated. Jesus said “Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29). Maybe someday I will actually read the Quran. I honestly believe I’ve read enough verses to at least “get a feel” for the religion. Besides, if I was to become Muslim wouldn’t I have to accept ALL of the Quran - not just verses here or there? And there are definately practices in Islam that I will NEVER accept.

On the flip side, why can’t all Muslims read the Bible? They are told one thing by their sheiks and imams about what Christians believe, but are not allowed to read the Bible themselves. I just read a story about Saudi Arabia burning any Bibles brought into their country.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy;4627992:

Very good point, although I don’t think I need my opinion validated. Jesus said “Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29). Maybe someday I will actually read the Quran. I honestly believe I’ve read enough verses to at least “get a feel” for the religion. Besides, if I was to become Muslim wouldn’t I have to accept ALL of the Quran - not just verses here or there? And there are definately practices in Islam that I will NEVER accept.

But why wouldn’t you accept them? Now you can say you don’t believe they are from God. But Muslims only accept them because they are from God. If I am correct, Catholics take communion, drink wine and bread–but why? (I am hoping that the answer is because they were instructed by Jesus to do this… if that answer is incorrect please let me know.)

On the flip side, why can’t all Muslims read the Bible? They are told one thing by their sheiks and imams about what Christians believe, but are not allowed to read the Bible themselves. I just read a story about Saudi Arabia burning any Bibles brought into their country.

1. Nobody says Muslims can’t read the Bible. I know many who have–they found it helped them understand Islam better. I myself took a course specifically on the New Testament.
2. Sheikhs and Imams do not teach about what Christians believe. Nor do they prohibit Muslims from reading Christian texts.
3. Saudi Arabia burning Bibles is completely different, and to be quite honest, I have no idea why they do that. Probably intimidation, to seem tough or something.

 

[R_not]

Jay53;4627967:

The point isn’t really to change your opinion… it’s to validate it.

Here is an example. Suppose we pass by a house everyday, and I tell you that the inside of that house is painted blue. You could believe me, or not believe me. I could tell you that I heard from someone who heard from someone and so on that the inside of the house is painted blue. I could even show you pictures of blue walls and claim they are the inside of that house. And you could believe me.

Or you could go up to that house and look inside. Maybe the house would be blue–and you would have seen it with your own eyes to prove it!

Or you could just believe me. But how would you know

that the inside of the house is blue, without looking for yourself?

that is a good example, it is why I don’t believe you for the most part. Along with that are the actions of the violent ones and the deception of ones such as yourself about islam. Now that proves your koran.

So, I don’t know why you would use that analogy unless you are having doubts about the whole thing yourself. Did you read it BEFORE you reverted back to sin, oh, er I mean to islam?

I just don’t know how anyone could freely follow this if they have read it.

When I first read it I certainly didn’t have the opinion about islam that I now have. It took me reading it to get this opinion. I will admit though - I started reading islam’s history first before reading the koran. I had to find out #1. why do they hate us, and #2. what was driving them to kill for 1400 years. Admittedly the violence has ebbed and flowed, but it has still kept on going like water. And it has had a resurgence since the 20th century, helped along by Hitler and his Nazis. And also by oil money.

It all goes back to the koran and mohammed. mohammed started this mess and to call him a perfect man, or a man who should be emulated - well, only if one wants to just wage war, beat up women, set oneself up as a megalomaniac, mysoginistic dictator! then you could call it all a ‘cookbook’ to being that. Otherwise, for me it is a book of tactics against non-muslims.

I also read ‘the Art of War’ and it seems mohammed had an uncanny grasp of those rules as an illiterate pagan.

 

[Jay53]

But why wouldn’t you accept them? Now you can say you don’t believe they are from God.

Exactly.

But Muslims only accept them because they BELIEVE are from God

.

Fair enough, if you add the capitalized, Bolded word above.

If I am correct, Catholics take communion, drink wine and bread–but why? (I am hoping that the answer is because they were instructed by Jesus to do this… if that answer is incorrect please let me know.)

Yes, but it is not just bread and wine. It is the sacred Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

1. Sheikhs and Imams do not teach about what Christians believe. Nor do they prohibit Muslims from reading Christian texts.

Then why have I seen videos of Muslim clerics preaching about jews and “polytheists” (when the obvious meaning was Christians). That is a fallacy that they are perpetuating and “teaching” to their children.

1. Saudi Arabia burning Bibles is completely different, and to be quite honest, I have no idea why they do that. Probably intimidation, to seem tough or something.

Not sure, either. I see it as a way to keep the people from learning the truth.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, but it is not just bread and wine. It is the sacred Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Right, right. Does that make logical sense? To devour the flesh and blood of a human being? Or the flesh and blood of a god?

Then why have I seen videos of Muslim clerics preaching about jews and “polytheists” (when the obvious meaning was Christians). That is a fallacy that they are perpetuating and “teaching” to their children.

Let’s see them. Let’s see these videos.

Not sure, either. I see it as a way to keep the people from learning the truth.

Perhaps you might write King Abdullah a letter.

 

[Jay53]

Let’s see them. Let’s see these videos.

Here’s one. Although this one is admittedly more anti-Jew - and at the end anti-America. But the “polytheists” are mentioned at the beginning.
youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_LfghKTrk

It may take me a while to find the others. I don’t remember where they are at. I’ll look tonight when I get back home.

Perhaps you might write King Abdullah a letter.

And make myself and my family targets. No thanks.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Here’s one. Although this one is admittedly more anti-Jew - and at the end anti-America. But the “polytheists” are mentioned at the beginning.
youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_LfghKTrk

It may take me a while to find the others. I don’t remember where they are at. I’ll look tonight when I get back home.

And make myself and my family targets. No thanks.

Targets?

 

[Jay53]

Targets?

If he decides I’m an unbeliever or an idolator because I believe in the Trinity.

Qur’an 9:005: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

[Jay53]

QUOTE=Sister Amy;4628399]Right, right. Does that make logical sense? To devour the flesh and blood of a human being? Or the flesh and blood of a god?

This deals with transubstantiation. That is way off topic for this thread, but I’m sure there are plenty of other threads around the forums about this.

 

[planten]

Sister Amy;4627992:

Very good point, although I don’t think I need my opinion validated. Jesus said “Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29). Maybe someday I will actually read the Quran. I honestly believe I’ve read enough verses to at least “get a feel” for the religion. Besides, if I was to become Muslim wouldn’t I have to accept ALL of the Quran - not just verses here or there? And there are definately practices in Islam that I will NEVER accept.

Jay, please do not make up your mind on the refusal side too quickly before you have seen the wisdom of the sacred books. I damn care for any Shaikh who would tell me not to read the bible.

I believe there are some who would forbid any one reading the bibleNT/OT. If I had my way, I would invite the evangelists to my place and I would give them all facility to teach and preach the bible, providing them with a good stage, helped with food and drinks. I would do that for any Jew or Hindu too.

Any one who is forbidding the entry of bible in Arabia is not a Muslim. The only condition that I would apply on the evangelists would be that there should be no abuse of Islam. The evangelsits (christian preachers) should teach the good things (points) of their religion and not to abuse or attack any other faith.

But these are just my good wishes. They may never be realised in practice in many Muslim countries. They won’t allow freedom of speech. And yet they would like to be called the champions of Islam.

I hope I have not over done anything or caused displeasure to any one here. May Allah guide us all to the right peaceful path of all religions.

On the flip side, why can’t all Muslims read the Bible? They are told one thing by their sheiks and imams about what Christians believe, but are not allowed to read the Bible themselves. I just read a story about Saudi Arabia burning any Bibles brought into their country.

I hope my reply in my above paras is sufficient for all times.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53;4628019:

Jay, please do not make up your mind on the refusal side too quickly before you have seen the wisdom of the sacred books. I damn care for any Shaikh who would tell me not to read the bible.

I believe there are some who would forbid any one reading the bibleNT/OT. If I had my way, I would invite the evangelists to my place and I would give them all facility to teach and preach the bible, providing them with a good stage, helped with food and drinks. I would do that for any Jew or Hindu too.

Any one who is forbidding the entry of bible in Arabia is not a Muslim. The only condition that I would apply on the evangelists would be that there should be no abuse of Islam. The evangelsits (christian preachers) should teach the good things (points) of their religion and not to abuse or attack any other faith.

But these are just my good wishes. They may never be realised in practice in many Muslim countries. They won’t allow freedom of speech. And yet they would like to be called the champions of Islam.

I hope I have not over done anything or caused displeasure to any one here. May Allah guide us all to the right peaceful path of all religions.

I hope my reply in my above paras is sufficient for all times.

That was a very gracious post. Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

I haven’t found the other videos I was looking for yet, but in the mean time I found this:

Another example is the edict issued by Sheikh Gad-El Haq, the former Imam of Al-Azhar, when answering a question regarding the marriage of a Muslim woman from a Christian man. To answer that question, the former Imam of Al-Azhar issued an edict based on thorough Islamic jurisprudential research which concluded that Jews and Christians are infidels therefore a Muslim woman should not be given into marriage to a non-Muslim whether a Christian or a Jew or others, and the followers of both religions are considered infidels and polytheists. (Consultant Mohamed Said El-Ashmawy, in “An edict and an article” in El-Ahaly newspaper 10/4/1996).

Not sure that this is real credible though because why would Jewish people be considered polytheists? Or is there something about Judaism that I am ignorant on?

 

[Sister_Amy]

If he decides I’m an unbeliever or an idolator because I believe in the Trinity.

Qur’an 9:005: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

King Abdullah–the King of Saudi Arabia, he could probably care less that you’re a Christian. Wouldn’t care if you were an idol-worshipper (like worshipping real idols, like a picture of an elephant with extra arms or something.)

More to the point, you don’t live in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I haven’t found the other videos I was looking for yet, but in the mean time I found this:

Not sure that this is real credible though because why would Jewish people be considered polytheists? Or is there something about Judaism that I am ignorant on?

Jews certainly wouldn’t be called polytheists. And to me it doesn’t seem very credible at all.

We have a local paper here in Raleigh and some of the things I read from it are truly embarassing. These people aren’t scholars–they’re not even journalists, but trying to be activists and often don’t do their research. Shameful, I think.

 

[Jay53]

King Abdullah–the King of Saudi Arabia, he could probably care less that you’re a Christian. Wouldn’t care if you were an idol-worshipper (like worshipping real idols, like a picture of an elephant with extra arms or something.)

More to the point, you don’t live in Saudi Arabia.

LOL! Very true. However, if I start sending him letters as you suggested to change the practice of burning Bibles and the oppression of women in his country, I will then be on his radar. If I annoy him enough he may send someone else to get rid of his annoyance.

Ishaq: 676 “[Context note: Asma bint Marwan was a writer. She wrote critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him, like this:] ‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’

Don’t worry, I don’t plan to write him and I really don’t think he cares about me in po-dunk Ohio.

 

[R_not]

religion of peace?

Jihad is not peaceful, even if the muslims on these threads tell us time and again that it is peaceful. The History of jihad speaks for itself and it is not nowhere near peaceful.

Centrality of jihad in islam

“Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world… If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them.” World peace, according to Islamic teaching, “is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam.”

(1) The command to wage jihad is laid on all Muslims. (2) Jihad must be carried out until the whole world has been brought under the power of the Islamic state. (3) Even when Muslims lack the present ability to wage jihad, the hope of jihad remains alive in their hearts, enabling them to wait for generations for a new chance to spread the faith. And finally, (4) jihad is not a recent revival of the late 20th century but has periodically erupted during long ages of apparent Muslim quiescence.

And if islam was so peaceful then we wouldn’t be seeing this:
Jewish basketball team attacked
UK: Synagogue burned, Jews being attacked
UK: Jihadists draw up hit list of Jews
France: car bomb hits Synagogue
Toronto: muslims shouting Hitler didn’t do a good job and yell out: When the peace-loving thugs shout, “You are the product of monkeys, you are the product of pigs!,” they are referring to the passages in the Qur’an in which Allah curses Jews and transforms them into apes and pigs (2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166). (‘moderate’ muslims are certainly not hiding these passages on the streets!)

Israel: hamas rocket aimed for Israeli kindergarten

Here we have the face of ‘peacefulness’ on our own shores
while the muslims do nothing about their own hiding behind children

And in France 700 ‘sensitive urban zones’ exist where no police go into and where it is unsafe for non-muslims. While muslims fully demand that they be safe in our lands - go figure this double standard and a country willing to just hand over its lands to these people. (Newmax, Jan. 2009, America Faces Stealth Jihad by Tim Collie)

 

[planten]

religion of peace?

Jihad is not peaceful, even if the muslims on these threads tell us time and again that it is peaceful. The History of jihad speaks for itself and it is not nowhere near peaceful.

Centrality of jihad in islam

**Jihad is of two types. 1. The struggle to improve ones soul by acting against bad wishes (desires). And to preach the message of truth peacefully.
2. The struggle to root out evil which threatens life and liberty.

The first type is the greatest Jihad. The second one is the lesser Jihad. There is no need of any armed Jihad now in any place of the world.**

And if islam was so peaceful then we wouldn’t be seeing this:
Jewish basketball team attacked
UK: Synagogue burned, Jews being attacked
UK: Jihadists draw up hit list of Jews
France: car bomb hits Synagogue

** The above may all be some kind of retaliation of the oppressed, persecuted Muslims. It need not be called Jihad. We are discussing religion here, not any political activity.**

Toronto: muslims shouting Hitler didn’t do a good job and yell out: When the peace-loving thugs shout, “You are the product of monkeys, you are the product of pigs!,” they are referring to the passages in the Qur’an in which Allah curses Jews and transforms them into apes and pigs (2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166). (‘moderate’ muslims are certainly not hiding these passages on the streets!)

Israel: hamas rocket aimed for Israeli kindergarten

** That is all politics. It shows how much you all christians love the Muslims and how much they love you in return. It has nothing to do with Islam**.

Here we have the face of ‘peacefulness’ on our own shores
while the muslims do nothing about their own hiding behind children

And in France 700 ‘sensitive urban zones’ exist where no police go into and where it is unsafe for non-muslims. While muslims fully demand that they be safe in our lands - go figure this double standard and a country willing to just hand over its lands to these people. (Newmax, Jan. 2009, America Faces Stealth Jihad by Tim Collie)

** It is all meaningless one sided propaganda. It has nothing to do with the virtues of christianity and it has nothing to do with any bad things of islam. Better we talk about each other’s religion only and not malign each others religions with false ideas.**

 

[R_not]

**Jihad is of two types. 1. The struggle to improve ones soul by acting against bad wishes (desires). And to preach the message of truth peacefully.
2. The struggle to root out evil which threatens life and liberty.

The first type is the greatest Jihad. The second one is the lesser Jihad. There is no need of any armed Jihad now in any place of the world.**

** The above may all be some kind of retaliation of the oppressed, persecuted Muslims. It need not be called Jihad. We are discussing religion here, not any political activity.**

** That is all politics. It shows how much you all christians love the Muslims and how much they love you in return. It has nothing to do with Islam**.

** It is all meaningless one sided propaganda. It has nothing to do with the virtues of christianity and it has nothing to do with any bad things of islam. Better we talk about each other’s religion only and not malign each others religions with false ideas.**

As usual the usual junk from you planten.

islam is concerned with spreading islam, and to have it dominate, and you don’t do that with your ‘inner struggle’.

‘The individual Believer is akin to a recruit to an army. If he leaves, that is regarded as treason. His duty is that of mental submission – no independent questioning, no comparing what his duties are with what reason, or morality, tell him should be his duties. His not to reason why, but to follow scrupulously the rules as to what is prohibited and what is commanded.’

All your doing is trying to convince infidels that the greater jihad is muslim individuals struggling with their inner consciences. Nice try, but unfortunately if you want us to believe that then go tell your own that because proof is in the actions. And I have read and viewed so called ‘peaceful’ muslims yelling out obscenitites that Hitler would have been proud of - ‘go back to the ovens’, attacking Synagogues, Jews, and rioting worldwide.

Qur’anic commentators and Muslim jurisconsults and Muslim historians all agree that the “Jihad” means that “struggle” to spread Islam, and that the “internal struggle” is simply a later invention by a few Muslim would-be reformers who realized that “Jihad” would not be wise or even possible in a world of overwhelmingly more powerful Infidels, and that therefore the idea should be given a different interpretation. Or at least they would try to do the impossible and hope that some Muslims might actually accept that interpretation.

We have 1400 years of history of jihad and it is violence against the non-muslims - and it is directed against unarmed civilians, and armies. They follow mohammed’s example.

Those propagandists have to deal with an unprecedented situation – that of millions of Muslims living within the Lands of the Infidels, the Bilad al-Kufr. They have to stave off any inquiry, or critical analysis, or study of, Islam that might lead Infidels, quite naturally, to become keenly worried – as they discover that Islam is not a “religion” but also, and mainly, a politics and a geopolitics within a Total Belief-System that is based on the notion of uncompromising and permanent hostility between Believer and Infidel, a hostility that does not lessen if the Infidel moves heaven and earth to prove his own good will and surpassing generosity.

You can say that the 700 areas where muslims have made it so that it is dangerous for non-muslims to be is propaganda all you want. They exist and it shows the intolerance, danger and pure arrogance of muslims in other’s lands. Their unwillingness to be a part of the society that they migrate to and their arrogance to think that everyone should be subjugated to them.

As for theology - I have tried that with you and you don’t like to discuss it and ignore it completely. This thread is ‘What is the Goal of JIhad’ and I am just stating it according to historical precidence - past and present - and to show that the muslims on these threads are doing exactly what is expected of them - to try to mislead us as to what islam is.

 

[planten]

**For R_not, all I know is that the christian Padres entered the countries of Asia and Afrika with their christian soldiers of the western countries, killed and subdued the local people of Asia and Africa and ruled over them. The padres became active in those occupied countries with their biblical JIHAD trying to convert the poor oppressed occupied / enslaved people.

Would that not be a JIHAD of name sake christians? That is a history of the previous two centuries, quite recent**.

 

[R_not]

**For R_not, all I know is that the christian Padres entered the countries of Asia and Afrika with their christian soldiers of the western countries, killed and subdued the local people of Asia and Africa and ruled over them. The padres became active in those occupied countries with their biblical JIHAD trying to convert the poor oppressed occupied / enslaved people.

Would that not be a JIHAD of name sake christians? That is a history of the previous two centuries, quite recent**.

Then you don’t know too much. While you talk about something that happened centuries ago - I am talking about something that is happening right now with muslim jihadists.

Those padres did wrong - and this has been explained to you so many times that it gets old. And not all padres did such things - We have a Saint - Father Junipero Sierra - who is a fine example of such a man who did indeed follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. While the same CAN INDEED BE SAID OF THE VIOLENT JIHADISTS OF ISLAM - they do what their ‘prophet’ did - kill, enslave, loot, destroy and bring chaos and eventually decay to the people they subjugate or convert.

And they do it to this day.