What is the "good news"?

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t undertsand sister Rebecca. Can you please clarify what you mean here please?

Non-Catholics, including my before-Catholic self, sometimes interpret Original Sin to mean the same thing as personal sin. That is, some think Catholic doctrine is saying we inherit the sin of Adam and Eve. This is not what we believe.

Original Grace, which refers to the state of Adam and Eve before the fall, encompasses the belief that God created us to live in His immediate presence, not experiencing death, sorrow, pain, etc. In this state, their children (us) would have inherited their state, and also lived in the immediate presence of God, not experiencing death, pain, etc.

Sin, by definition, removes us from the presence of God. The physical expulsion from the Garden, removed Adam and Eve from the presence of God. Sin entered the world, and the wages of sin is death.

We lost our inheritance, because Adam and Eve were no longer in a state of grace. They no longer had “the something”, eternal life in the presence of God, for us to inherit. The Good News is Jesus Christ, who has restored us to our inheritance. In Him, with Him, and through Him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Still doesn’t make it loving nor just, sister Rebecca.

This is God we are talking about.

I think I can pull off better justice and better love than whats presented as God’s Truth here…

.

How would you pull it off?

I’m headed to sleep, and have a busy day ahead, but will check back and respond when I’m able.

Peace be with you.

 

[Servant19]

I own a business. I get my staff to do ABCDEF…

One of them doesn’t do what I ask, so I tell them ALL they are not going to get paid. They have to wait in this room for 25 years.

All the future staff I hire also don’t get paid, even though they all do ABCDEF perfectly, but they get nothing either. They have to wait in a room too…

Many many years later, I hire a manager who I send to humbly release all the staff members from the room as compensation for what the very first staff member did.

I think if you did this today in America, you would see the death penalty pretty quickly…

Is this what we have reduced God to??

 

[Servant19]

How would you pull it off?

I’m headed to sleep, and have a busy day ahead, but will check back and respond when I’m able.

Peace be with you.

I would do the opposite to what I posted above

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

So how do you know Christianity today represents ancient Christianity???

You cant dismiss Jewish teaching like that…

Modern Judaism rejected the Deuterocanon, altered Scripture (as seen
in earlier manuscripts), had to develop new practices in light of the fact
that they have no more Temple.

Believe it or not, Judaism during the first century BCE had certain ideas
reminiscent to what Christianity believes today, such as the preexistent
Messiah, the personified Word of YHWH, possibility that the Messiah
would be God himself, but after Christianity came, Judaism saw a lot
of revisions. This is a historical fact.

Christianity is actually the one with closer association
to ancient Judaism than Modern Judaism, shocking, I
realize that!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I own a business. I get my staff to do ABCDEF…

One of them doesn’t do what I ask, so I tell them ALL they are not going to get paid. They have to wait in this room for 25 years.

All the future staff I hire also don’t get paid, even though they all do ABCDEF perfectly, but they get nothing either. They have to wait in a room too…

Many many years later, I hire a manager who I send to humbly release all the staff members from the room as compensation for what the very first staff member did.

I think if you did this today in America, you would see the death penalty pretty quickly…

Is this what we have reduced God to??

Both Jews and Catholics have a communal understanding. We are saved, as a people, and sin affects us, as a people. We’re in this together.

Certainly it is important to realize Jesus died for you, personally. We are saved individually, together.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I would do the opposite to what I posted above

.

Well, how?

 

[Servant19]

Well, how?

Well I would personally create human beings and put them in an environment that could test them. Provide them guidance and reward them if they follow my commandments and guidance and if they didnt the consequences are manifest at some point after the fact.

If they follow my commandments there is all-encompassing love. A just outcome for resisting the tests of teh environment and being able to transcned it to follwo my guidance.

Justice and love all in one act…

 

[Servant19]

I told you, there was no eternal life before Jesus died. The Jews did wait
for the resurrection, they did believe in it, but they expected it to come
after the end of the world.

So if a Jew had no eternal life before Jesus coming, how did he attain eternal life with the coming of Jesus?

When you died before Jesus coming, there was no afterlife. That was the end…how did Jesus reverse that?
**
For the purposes of this exploration can we please clarify what we mean by death? Can we use the words “physical death” or “spiritual death” so we can all be on the same page please?**

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

For the purposes of this exploration can we please clarify what we mean by death? Can we use the words “physical death” or “spiritual death” so we can all be on the same page please?

“Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12).

“The soul that sins shall die” (Ezek. 18:20);

Council of Orange, then Trent.

CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was “changed for the worse” through the offense of Adam’s sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, “The soul that sins shall die” (Ezek. 18:20); and, “Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?” (Rom. 6:126); and, “For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved” (2 Pet. 2:19).

CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam’s sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12).

 

[GaryTaylor]

Servant19

Trent further elaborated on the Council of Orange. Nevertheless from a strictly Christian perspective as a whole. the Council of Orange admits a wider understanding of the Christian view with its various implications and understandings of for example, God willed all men to be saved. Or negative reprobate. Should suffice for the conversation though.

 

[Servant19]

Thankyou for this Gary.

What is your understanding of this?

That physical and spiritual death is inherited?

 

[GaryTaylor]

That physical and spiritual death is inherited?

Basic Christian perspective, for sure we inherited our first parents fallen human nature, thus the redemption of Jesus Christ.

Biblically the word iniquity is frequented. For example with Isaiah…

“But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.”

 

[meltzerboy]

There was no Eternal Life in Judaism. Judaism didn’t teach that people went to Heaven.
Yes you have some prophets taken up before they died (where we believe they never
would die), but the Jews believed in Sheol, the Jews are from whom I got the word,
and that was the Grave, from which none returned.

There is no such thing as “the Jews,” neither in ancient times nor modern times. Jews have always had different views about many issues, including the afterlife. The Pharisees and Sadducees had different ideas and the ideas of these movements differed from those of the Essenes and Karaites. Further, there was an evolution in ancient Judaism regarding the issue of the afterlife as can be seen if one compares the earlier parts of the Hebrew Bible to the later portions. Finally, the afterlife was never a great concern of Jews in general; it is the here and now that is the main focus of Judaism, in both ancient and modern times.

 

[Servant19]

Basic Christian perspective, for sure we inherited our first parents fallen human nature, thus the redemption of Jesus Christ.

Biblically the word iniquity is frequented. For example with Isaiah…

“But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.”

Hi Gary, this suffering for our iniquities has been experienced by the Founders of all the Major Global Religions.

Why would Christianity only acknowledge Jesus’s suffering and death for God’s rectification and grace?

In no uncertain terms, the moment a Founder of one of the major global religions announced Himself, all souls born into this world from there on in, were fallen. Only by recognising God’s Representative would one be saved…

.

 

[Kliska]

Hi Gary, this suffering for our iniquities has been experienced by the Founders of all the Major Global Religions.

Quite the contrary. There is no other leader who taught that they were God incarnate, lived a perfect life, became Sin itself by taking on all sin of mankind, died, descended, and then rose bodily 3 days later. Who do you suppose has done that other than Jesus?

Why would Christianity only acknowledge Jesus’s suffering and death for God’s rectification and grace?

Because only His sacrifice is efficacious enough for all of us for all time.

In no uncertain terms, the moment a Founder of one of the major global religions announced Himself, all souls born into this world from there on in, were fallen. Only by recognising God’s Representative would one be saved…

Wow. No. Buddha never claimed he was God nor divine in any way; do as I do, he taught. Mohammed never claimed he was God nor divine in any way, do as God says, he taught. Moses never claimed he was God nor divine in any way, do as God says, he taught. Only Jesus has ever made the claim He made and the proved Himself by raising from the dead.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hi Gary, this suffering for our iniquities has been experienced by the Founders of all the Major Global Religions.

Why would Christianity only acknowledge Jesus’s suffering and death for God’s rectification and grace?

In no uncertain terms, the moment a Founder of one of the major global religions announced Himself, all souls born into this world from there on in, were fallen. Only by recognising God’s Representative would one be saved…

.

Hi

Christian perspective in the Trinity, Christ the logos.

Gospel of John,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

 

[Servant19]

Quite the contrary. There is no other leader who taught that they were God incarnate, lived a perfect life, became Sin itself by taking on all sin of mankind, died, descended, and then rose bodily 3 days later. Who do you suppose has done that other than Jesus?

Because only His sacrifice is efficacious enough for all of us for all time.

Wow. No. Buddha never claimed he was God nor divine in any way; do as I do, he taught. Mohammed never claimed he was God nor divine in any way, do as God says, he taught. Moses never claimed he was God nor divine in any way, do as God says, he taught. Only Jesus has ever made the claim He made and the proved Himself by raising from the dead.

Hi Kliska,

On your first point why would they need to die and resurrect? The point is suffering and sacrifice, for the edification of souls and the outpouring of grace, and they all did that.

On your final point, Jesus never said He was God, and neither did Muhammad. They have a lot in common after all.

Jesus actually clearly outlined how He was a Messenger of God, and so did Muhammad.

Buddhist clearly feel they have an eternal afterlife too

Anyway this is getting a little off topic…let’s refocus on the questions asked about Gods love and His justice…

 

[Kliska]

On your first point why would they need to die and resurrect. The point is suffering and sacrifice, for the edification of souls and the outpouring of grace, and they all did that.

And there you have it; they did not prove power over death, hell or the grave, they have no power over it, they were just human. Jesus did both have power over death, hell and the grave and proved it. You are worshiping creations of God, instead of God Himself.

On your final point, Jesus never said He was God

Then you must think the Jewish leaders of His day incredibly stupid. You must also not be reading the same Bible I’m reading, or perhaps its just that you don’t believe God?

Jesus actually clearly outlined how He was a Messenger of God, and so did Muhammad.

Do you know that John the Baptist is called a prophet, but much more than a prophet? Why? Because he, John the Baptist, went about proclaiming the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Your problem is that you refuse to believe the claims of Christ. Muhammad did not make himself equal with God, Muhammad did not die and raise, Muhammad did not live a sin free life, Muhammad did not meet the criteria of Messiah, etc…

Anyway this is getting a little off topic…let’s refocus on the questions asked about Gods love and His justice…

God’s love and justice meet in one place at one time; Christ on the Cross.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

So if a Jew had no eternal life before Jesus coming, how did he attain eternal life with the coming of Jesus?

Well first let’s talk about the Jews whom Jesus met in life. All they had to do was believe
on him. Some accused him of witchcraft and blasphemy, scorned him for the miracles he
worked on the Sabbath, and so forth, so they might be screwed. As for those who did be-
lieve, they are saved.
Now for those who died before, who were waiting for a long time in Sheol, when Jesus had
died and descended to the dead, he raised them all(?) to life. He opened Heaven’s doors,
and the souls of all(?) before entered therein. One person whom I can identify is the thief
on the cross next to Jesus who said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your
kingdom.”

When you died before Jesus coming, there was no afterlife. That was the end…how did Jesus reverse that?
**
For the purposes of this exploration can we please clarify what we mean by death? Can we use the words “physical death” or “spiritual death” so we can all be on the same page please?**

Okay well I just discussed that first part above, so WHAT IS DEATH? What I think
would be a good thing for us to do is to look in Daniel concerning a prophecy with
an interesting wording:And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one (Messiah) be
cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and his end shall be with a flood,
and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

• (Daniel 9:26)
  To be “cut off” is Old Testament ‘slang’ if you will for “be put death.” So in physical death,
  you are “cut off” from the living (in flesh) and in spiritual death, you are “cut off” from God.
  Those who are “cut off” from God eternally are eternally dead, both physically and spirit–
  ually, because with God is living, without God is dead.

When the end of days come, and ALL are resurrected, given new indestructible bodies,
we will be held at judgement, and God will decide whether one is with him forever or be
in the lake of fire FOREVER. So in a sense, we all will be raised to life terms of the re-
surrection, but the damned will be “cut off” from saved, forever and without mercy.

So in the end, the difference between physically dead and spiritually dead is meaningless
in Christianity, because if one are not with God, if one is not regenerated through Messiah
Jesus, Son of the Living God, God himself, dead is just dead, and will become a lot more
obvious as to what Death really means after the Devil is entirely defeated.

Remember: For God so loved the world, as to give his only
begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him,
may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

• (John 3:16)