What is the "good news"?

[Servant19]

And there you have it; they did not prove power over death, hell or the grave, they have no power over it, they were just human. Jesus did both have power over death, hell and the grave and proved it. You are worshiping creations of God, instead of God Himself.

Then you must think the Jewish leaders of His day incredibly stupid. You must also not be reading the same Bible I’m reading, or perhaps its just that you don’t believe God?

Do you know that John the Baptist is called a prophet, but much more than a prophet? Why? Because he, John the Baptist, went about proclaiming the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Your problem is that you refuse to believe the claims of Christ. Muhammad did not make himself equal with God, Muhammad did not die and raise, Muhammad did not live a sin free life, Muhammad did not meet the criteria of Messiah, etc…

God’s love and justice meet in one place at one time; Christ on the Cross.

Thank you Kliska

I honour your passion and love for Jesus. You are very sweet.

A large proportion of the points you raise were discussed during the last 5-6 pages of the “Could Muhammad have been a Prophet?” Thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=784344

I’m happy to discuss further if you wish to discuss the validity or invalidity of the points you raise against Muhammad, and the historicity vs the true spiritual reality of resurrection…if you wish to start a thread on it?

In the meantime I would like to know why God would punish perfectly good souls living before Christs Coming? If there was a need for a Saviour, why not send Him the next day after the Fall and show humanity some love?

 

[Servant19]

Well first let’s talk about the Jews whom Jesus met in life. All they had to do was believe
on him. Some accused him of witchcraft and blasphemy, scorned him for the miracles he
worked on the Sabbath, and so forth, so they might be screwed. As for those who did be-
lieve, they are saved.
Now for those who died before, who were waiting for a long time in Sheol, when Jesus had
died and descended to the dead, he raised them all(?) to life. He opened Heaven’s doors,
and the souls of all(?) before entered therein. One person whom I can identify is the thief
on the cross next to Jesus who said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your
kingdom.”

Okay well I just discussed that first part above, so WHAT IS DEATH? What I think
would be a good thing for us to do is to look in Daniel concerning a prophecy with
an interesting wording:And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one (Messiah) be
cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and his end shall be with a flood,
and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

• (Daniel 9:26)
  To be “cut off” is Old Testament ‘slang’ if you will for “be put death.” So in physical death,
  you are “cut off” from the living (in flesh) and in spiritual death, you are “cut off” from God.
  Those who are “cut off” from God eternally are eternally dead, both physically and spirit–
  ually, because with God is living, without God is dead.

When the end of days come, and ALL are resurrected, given new indestructible bodies,
we will be held at judgement, and God will decide whether one is with him forever or be
in the lake of fire FOREVER. So in a sense, we all will be raised to life terms of the re-
surrection, but the damned will be “cut off” from saved, forever and without mercy.

So in the end, the difference between physically dead and spiritually dead is meaningless
in Christianity, because if one are not with God, if one is not regenerated through Messiah
Jesus, Son of the Living God, God himself, dead is just dead, and will become a lot more
obvious as to what Death really means after the Devil is entirely defeated.

Remember: For God so loved the world, as to give his only
begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him,
may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

• (John 3:16)

Judas you’re back!!! Hope you rested well brother

I’m about to go sleep here in Oz.

I’ll read your post and see if I can raise some areas we can discuss dear friend

 

[Kliska]

In the meantime I would like to know why God would punish perfectly good souls living before Christs Coming?

Why would you not think God existed prior to Jesus? Of course He did and He did indeed interact with mankind. Directly with Adam and Eve and then through His prophets. God expects people to respond in faith to what is revealed to them. He makes the rules, it’s our job to respond in faith.

Why do you think that He punished the faithful? You think David was punished after death?

If there was a need for a Saviour, why not send Him the next day after the Fall and show humanity some love?

You deny the need for a Saviour? That’s a terrifying thought.

Because we would not have learned our lesson well enough and mankind would not have responded. Jesus was sent at exactly the right time and place to maximize the salvation of souls.

 

[Servant19]

Why would you not think God existed prior to Jesus? Of course He did and He did indeed interact with mankind. Directly with Adam and Eve and then through His prophets. God expects people to respond in faith to what is revealed to them. He makes the rules, it’s our job to respond in faith.

Why do you think that He punished the faithful? You think David was punished after death?

You deny the need for a Saviour? That’s a terrifying thought.

Because we would not have learned our lesson well enough and mankind would not have responded. Jesus was sent at exactly the right time and place to maximize the salvation of souls.

I never said that I deny the need for a Saviour. If you go back to my previous post above you will read that I believe salvation was given by different Saviours from age to age. Moses was also a Saviour, so was Buddha and Lord Krsna.

Do you know why salvation was so critical in Christianity?
And less stressed in other religions?

 

[Servant19]

Well first let’s talk about the Jews whom Jesus met in life. All they had to do was believe
on him. Some accused him of witchcraft and blasphemy, scorned him for the miracles he
worked on the Sabbath, and so forth, so they might be screwed. As for those who did be-
lieve, they are saved.
Now for those who died before, who were waiting for a long time in Sheol, when Jesus had
died and descended to the dead, he raised them all(?) to life. He opened Heaven’s doors,
and the souls of all(?) before entered therein. One person whom I can identify is the thief
on the cross next to Jesus who said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your

When Jesus descended to Sheol, was everyone spiritually dead or spiritually alive in there? If, Steve died in 12BC, was he still conscious as a soul within Sheol?

 

[GaryTaylor]

In the meantime I would like to know why God would punish perfectly good souls living before Christs Coming? If there was a need for a Saviour, why not send Him the next day after the Fall and show humanity some love?

Cherry-picking the Bible. Pretext without context/content. That’s for further up the yellow brick road.

 

[Servant19]

Remember: For God so loved the world, as to give his only
begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him,
may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

• (John 3:16)

“Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of heaven…”
(Matt 7:21)

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of heaven…”
(Matt 7:21)

You mean those who refused Jesus Christs grace love and mercy? My prayers are with them. That’s where the saying arrives, “we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not”. We love them all though because God wills all to be saved.

I think you know this Bible better than you would lead me to believe.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

When Jesus descended to Sheol, was everyone spiritually dead or spiritually alive in there? If, Steve died in 12BC, was he still conscious as a soul within Sheol?

In Steve’s case (I assume this is hypothetical?), I don’t know if he was conscious, can’t
be certain, though Jesus gave a parable concerning a Lazarus and a rich man. The rich
man was that kinda guy you wouldn’t want to be, had it all and was that arrogant type.
Then there was a beggar by the name of Lazarus with soars always hoping for at least
a little food. Both died.

Actually this next part of the story is interesting, for it may bring a correction on previ-
ous things I’ve said. The rich man was being tormented, but Lazarus was found in the
“Bosom of Abraham” (From this we can infer that Sheol has different parts). The man
begged for Lazarus to bring him some cooling water, but Abraham said that this can’t
be done, for they are separated (going back to "cut off ") **… **(You can read about it all
in Luke 16:19-31).

So it is likely that Sheol was a place in which one was conscious, whether Jesus saved
EVERYONE there or not is a mystery, at least to me, but there did seem to be some a-
wareness in The Grave.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

“Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of heaven…”
(Matt 7:21)

This is speaking of hypocrites and “not true believers.”

The man who goes to church every Sunday but shamelessly goes to the
“gentleman’s club” (ooh-la-la) every Wednesday may be in for a big sur–
prise when he comes to Jesus saying “Lord, Lord!!!” for then Jesus may
say, “I never knew you, depart from me, you who work iniquity.”

The Mormon might be shocked too, for he did all his temple works, learned all
the secret handshakes and passwords, did so many “good works”, spread the
Mormon-version of the Gospel, but when he goes to meet Jesus who he’ll think
is his spirit-brother from the “pre-existence”, looking forward to becoming a god,
he might say “Lord, Lord!!!” but Jesus would say thus, “I never knew you, depart
from me, you who work iniquity.”

Context is important. Gotta have the right heart given only by the right Jesus.

 

[Tom_Baum]

What is the “good news”?

As Jesus said, "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

Not loaded with details but it is simple, concise and all inclusive.

Sounds like GOOD NEWS to me.

It’s a shame that pretty much no one seems to believe it and it is even a greater shame that many do not want it to be.

 

[Kliska]

I never said that I deny the need for a Saviour. If you go back to my previous post above you will read that I believe salvation was given by different Saviours from age to age. Moses was also a Saviour, so was Buddha and Lord Krsna.

Yet none of them made the same claims as Jesus and backed up what they said with objective proof. Jesus then said that God speaks now through Him alone whereas before He spoke in diverse manner. You either believe it based on the evidence provided by Jesus or not.

Do you know why salvation was so critical in Christianity?

Because God is Love and He wishes everyone would be saved. But, alas, not all will be. However, He loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes, puts their faith on Jesus for salvation, will be saved. He has made it as straightforward and accessible as He possibly can, it is our choice to believe it or not.

And less stressed in other religions?

They don’t have a proper worldview when it comes to sin, separate, relationship to God, etc… God has dealt with mankind in a particular way, we either learn the way of Truth, or the way of error. Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Kliska]

“Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of heaven…”
(Matt 7:21)

Saying Lord, Lord isn’t enough. Neither is doing good works and relying on them to save you. You have to trust Jesus as the once and for all sacrifice for sin and that His actions, His works, His sacrifice are what saves. After all the works He wrought, after all He went through and did, He now offers all humanity a gift and it’s completely unmerited on our part.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yet none of them made the same claims as Jesus and backed up what they said with objective proof. .

I notice that always gets overlooked. Doesn’t this come back to that question also by Jesus “Who do you say I AM?”

 

[SteveVH]

In the meantime I would like to know why God would punish perfectly good souls living before Christs Coming?

God was not punishing good souls. They were in the bosom of Abraham, not burning in unquenchable fire. Also, there were no “perfectly good souls” living before Christ, nor after Christ (save the Virgin Mary). That is why no man’s sacrifice was sufficient and why God himself had to become man and give himself as that sacrifice. Got it?

Servant, you are obviously welcome to ask any question you wish to ask, but I will ask you to please accept the answers given if you are truly interested in what we believe and are not just here to keep arguing the same point 30 different ways. It seems that when Baha’i posters get involved the merry-go-round begins and it gets very tedious in a hurry. I have had to stop participating on Baha’i threads for this very reason. It becomes a pointless exercise. Let’s not do that this time, okay?

 

[SteveVH]

The “Good News” to me is that, while we were sinners, our God loved us so much that he gave his own sinless, holy life that we might have eternal life with him. We slapped him in the face, scourged him and nailed him to a cross, and yet he welcomes us into his own family for eternity.

“Amazing Love, how can it be
that you, my King, would die for me.”

 

[Servant19]

In Steve’s case (I assume this is hypothetical?), I don’t know if he was conscious, can’t
be certain, though Jesus gave a parable concerning a Lazarus and a rich man. The rich
man was that kinda guy you wouldn’t want to be, had it all and was that arrogant type.
Then there was a beggar by the name of Lazarus with soars always hoping for at least
a little food. Both died.

Actually this next part of the story is interesting, for it may bring a correction on previ-
ous things I’ve said. The rich man was being tormented, but Lazarus was found in the
“Bosom of Abraham” (From this we can infer that Sheol has different parts). The man
begged for Lazarus to bring him some cooling water, but Abraham said that this can’t
be done, for they are separated (going back to "cut off ") **… **(You can read about it all
in Luke 16:19-31).

So it is likely that Sheol was a place in which one was conscious, whether Jesus saved
EVERYONE there or not is a mystery, at least to me, but there did seem to be some a-
wareness in The Grave.

Thanks for this Judas, so if people upon physical death were taken to Abrahams bosom, and they were conscious, they were ALIVE! Jesus did not necessarily herald eternal life…

As far as their consciousness was concerned they were in heaven, simply because they knew of nothing more heavenly than Abraham’s bosom (They certainly didn’t know about Jesus) …as Tom Baum has indicated above, Jesus “drew” them all into “His bosom” (for want of a better phrase)

Is it possible that with the coming of each Messenger of God we have a situation that upon death, the souls are transferred to closer and closer communion with God?

I sense that is what Jesus did for all the souls stemming from Abrahamic beliefs, and I know that this is what Baha’u’llah has suggested too…

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Thanks for this Judas, so if people upon physical death were taken to Abrahams bosom, and they were conscious, they were ALIVE! Jesus did not necessarily herald eternal life…

Well you need to be born again, simple as that. Does the deep sea fish understand what
air is? How would it describe such a thing? Before Jesus came, everyone died and were
dead, doesn’t matter how you view death, what matters is death in God’s Eye.

As far as their consciousness was concerned they were in heaven, simply because they knew of nothing more heavenly than Abraham’s bosom (They certainly didn’t know about Jesus) …as Tom Baum has indicated above, Jesus “drew” them all into “His bosom” (for want of a better phrase)

Oh your wrong. Would you believe it
if it came out of Jesus’ own mouth? Abraham your father rejoiced that he might
see my day: he saw it, and was glad.:extrahappy:
– (John 8:56)

Is it possible that with the coming of each Messenger of God we have a situation that upon death, the souls are transferred to closer and closer communion with God?

Not in the way Jesus can bring us closer to God. The most the prophets (speak–
ing of biblical prophets) did was to sustain the Truth given to the children of Israel.
It’s not like with every prophet our souls got closer and closer, then Jesus came,
and we need only a couple more . . . no.

God sent prophets to proclaim that there is no god but God, that those loyal to God
will be brought a Savior, that there will be a resurrection, and end to all evil, and that
our God longs for a relationship with us, though God won’t going to stop us from re–
jecting him, but once you truly know God through Jesus there’s no way (so far as I’m
aware) that you even CAN.

 

[Servant19]

Well you need to be born again, simple as that. Does the deep sea fish understand what
air is? How would it describe such a thing? Before Jesus came, everyone died and were
dead, doesn’t matter how you view death, what matters is death in God’s Eye.

Of course, heaven is a relative term…spiritual death is also a relative term.
In relation to all the souls who revered Moses, one could say that the Baal worshippers were also “spiritually dead”

Jesus didn’t give eternal life, He opened the door further ajar
Thats not salvation, thats “increasing the exposure”
God always “increases His exposure” since His beauty is infinite…

Oh your wrong. Would you believe it
if it came out of Jesus’ own mouth? Abraham your father rejoiced that he might
see my day: he saw it, and was glad.:extrahappy:
– (John 8:56)

…how interesting, please compare with what another Messenger of God says:

“Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God’s Will, than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.” - Baha’ullah

The fact that Abraham yearned for Jesus’ day does not mean that EVERY SOUL that died was aware that they were being “held back” by God. Abraham’s bosom was as heaven for them…

Not in the way Jesus can bring us closer to God. The most the prophets (speak–
ing of biblical prophets) did was to sustain the Truth given to the children of Israel.
It’s not like with every prophet our souls got closer and closer, then Jesus came,
and we need only a couple more . . . no.

God sent prophets to proclaim that there is no god but God, that those loyal to God
will be brought a Savior, that there will be a resurrection, and end to all evil, and that
our God longs for a relationship with us, though God won’t going to stop us from re–
jecting him, but once you truly know God through Jesus there’s no way (so far as I’m
aware) that you even CAN.

Jews would say the same thing about Jesus…

If this is the WHOLE Truth then surely a more convincing argument can be outlayed for the need of Jesus as the ONLY Saviour ever…

 

[Servant19]

Yet none of them made the same claims as Jesus and backed up what they said with objective proof. Jesus then said that God speaks now through Him alone whereas before He spoke in diverse manner. You either believe it based on the evidence provided by Jesus or not.

Hi Kliska,

How do you know none of them made the same claims?
A lot of what the Buddha, Krsna and Moses said has been lost.
Besides what specific things are a MUST to be said in order for one to be a Saviour. A Saviour must save, and Jews, Buddhists and Hindus believe that they are saved through their respective Messengers/Prophets.

A plumber does not need to say “I am a plumber” in order to be able to fix your leaky tap. He just “is”…the proof is in the fruits, not in the words spoken.

Finally, of course Jesus would say that God “only speaks through Him alone”.
He’s look pretty silly if He said that sometime in the future there will be a guy called Muhammad, then a thousand years later theres the Bab, then theres Baha’u’llah, then theres…

HE SPEAKS TO THE AUDIENCE, and tells them the way it is AT THAT TIME…

Because God is Love and He wishes everyone would be saved. But, alas, not all will be. However, He loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes, puts their faith on Jesus for salvation, will be saved. He has made it as straightforward and accessible as He possibly can, it is our choice to believe it or not.

Will every Christian on the planet be saved? If not why not?

They don’t have a proper worldview when it comes to sin, separate, relationship to God, etc… God has dealt with mankind in a particular way, we either learn the way of Truth, or the way of error. Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

…thats what we are here for Kliska, to explore what is the “proper world view on sin” and our “relationship with God”

What is your understanding of these concepts?

.