What is the "good news"?

[Servant19]

I notice that always gets overlooked. Doesn’t this come back to that question also by Jesus “Who do you say I AM?”

We will take turns Gary. Dear friend, you provide objective proof of this evidence from Jesus’ ministry and I will rpovide objective proof from the ministry of other Prophets and Messengers

.

 

[Servant19]

God was not punishing good souls. They were in the bosom of Abraham, not burning in unquenchable fire. Also, there were no “perfectly good souls” living before Christ, nor after Christ (save the Virgin Mary). That is why no man’s sacrifice was sufficient and why God himself had to become man and give himself as that sacrifice. Got it?

Servant, you are obviously welcome to ask any question you wish to ask, but I will ask you to please accept the answers given if you are truly interested in what we believe and are not just here to keep arguing the same point 30 different ways. It seems that when Baha’i posters get involved the merry-go-round begins and it gets very tedious in a hurry. I have had to stop participating on Baha’i threads for this very reason. It becomes a pointless exercise. Let’s not do that this time, okay?

Dear friend, Steve.

I genuinely believe there is a flaw in the logic of original sin and it is not the true teaching of Jesus.

I am here to discuss this with you all in order that you may be drawn closer to Jesus, not to doctrine.

Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections which Christianity and Jesus Himself places God under. When thoroughly and intellectually analysed, it either breaks apart itself, or breaks God apart as someone severely flawed and imperfect.

I’m here to explore this with you all

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Of course, heaven is a relative term…spiritual death is also a relative term.

No they aren’t!

In relation to all the souls who revered Moses, one could say that the Baal worshippers were also “spiritually dead”

Correct.

Jesus didn’t give eternal life, He opened the door further ajar
Thats not salvation, thats “increasing the exposure”
God always “increases His exposure” since His beauty is infinite…

Where in the Bible does it say that
Jesus only opened the door further
ajar? Read Carefully Now: And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can
never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat
down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a foot–
stool for his feet.For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanc-
tified.
– (Hebrews 10:11-14)

…how interesting, please compare with what another Messenger of God says:…
. . . . . .
. . . - Baha’ullah

Baha’u’llah, first off, isn’t a true Messenger of God, and second, when he says that
“allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures”, I am pretty sure that he is talk–
ing about not only the Old&New Testament, but the Avesta, Qur’an, Bhagavad Gita,
et cetera, so Baha’u’llah is SO NOT a true Messenger of God.

The fact that Abraham yearned for Jesus’ day does not mean that EVERY SOUL that died was aware that they were being “held back” by God. Abraham’s bosom was as heaven for them…

Yes, being with Abraham was the best their finite minds could imagine at the time.
And nobody was being held back by God, but by sin. Also, if Abraham knew, and
he was down in Sheol for a very long time with people in his loving embrace, why
do you insist that Abraham would have kept quiet that whole time?

Jews would say the same thing about Jesus…

Which ones?

If this is the WHOLE Truth then surely a more convincing argument can be outlayed for the need of Jesus as the ONLY Saviour ever…

Give me a break, I’m only revert and this
will be my second Christmas as a revert
to Catholicism.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m here to explore this with you all

.

Sounds like you want to debate more than explore… LOL

 

[GaryTaylor]

We will take turns Gary. Dear friend, you provide objective proof of this evidence from Jesus’ ministry and I will rpovide objective proof from the ministry of other Prophets and Messengers

OK sounds good I’ll start I believe Kliska makes a great point. I see no comparison to Jesus.

Why wouldn’t you believe the statistical probability of Jesus Christ being exactly who he claimed to be. The odds of one man fulfilling 48 prophecies let alone over 150 are 1X10 to the 157 power.

To put this in perspective that’s about the same as building a BOX which you could fit the entire universe in, then filling it with copper BBs, and adding one which is silver, and then picking out the silver by random chance on the first attempt. This would be trillions times more likely than the odds of one person fulfilling all the prophecies that Christ fulfilled. No occurrence in history or physical science has been verified with a higher degree of statistical certainty that the fact Christ is exactly who he claimed to be.

No one in history has been more recognized in the arts than Jesus Christ, not literature, painting, poetry, non fiction writing. More words have been written about Christ than any other event or person in history.

No theologian or historian would dispute the fact that Jesus Christ was the single most influential figure ever to walk the face of the earth.

His actions, words, and miracles changed the course of history. He has inspired entire societies to incorporate compassion and mercy into their cultures. He redefined the standards of morality. He not only changed the course of nations. He bought an unexplainable measure of purpose, peace and joy into the lives of hundreds of millions of people.

Historically and statistically speaking…there is no equal! This man named Jesus Christ had the ability to impart hope to those in despair, joy to those with broken hearts, and bought, taught and permeated a peace which is able to subdue even the most paralyzing fear. He transformed hating hearts to loving hearts, minds driven by greed to one overflowing with generosity, lives ruled by arrogance into one driven by the desire to serve others. He gave sight to the blind, delivered those in captivity, forgave the wrongdoer, and gave life to the dead.

I know of no other like this man, and that is because He is no man. He is exactly who He claimed to be…The Living God, and there certainly is every reason to believe He will come again.

Consider the facts

Born to a peasant couple in the middle of no-where.

Born in a country occupied by foreign conquerors

The only transportation he had was his legs.

No mass communication, he never left a 200 mile radius, he never wrote a word, and He only preached for 3-years. Three Years!

He was falsely accused and convicted in a rigged trail. He was sentenced to death by an individual who thought he was innocent.

He died the death of a criminal and died on a cross between two convicted criminals.

Only his mother and a few friends were present. Everyone else fled and hid. Only after he rose from the dead did his followers return. But they had no means to spread his story and teachings to a mass audience. There were no radios, televisions, printing press, in fact paper as we know was not even invented yet. Papyrus had to be painstakingly written by hand. And the only way to make a copy was to repeat the process and laboriously copy the original.

The idea of any individual but God actually accomplishing the above is in a word “laughable”

 

[Kliska]

How do you know none of them made the same claims?

This is an appeal to ignorance.

A lot of what the Buddha, Krsna and Moses said has been lost.

With Krishna it’s a bit different, but if we look at Buddha and Moses, we see plainly in the teachings that we do have that they did not believe they were God nor did they consider themselves to be inherently salvific; that just because of who and what they were they would save others. Rather Buddha had a system, and Moses had a covenant, Jesus Himself is the Way.

Besides what specific things are a MUST to be said in order for one to be a Saviour. A Saviour must save, and Jews, Buddhists and Hindus believe that they are saved through their respective Messengers/Prophets.

No, actually they don’t. Their view of salvation is very different than the view put forth by the Abrahamic faiths.

A plumber does not need to say “I am a plumber” in order to be able to fix your leaky tap. He just “is”…the proof is in the fruits, not in the words spoken.

Your analogy fails because it would be like someone knocking on the door, you opening it and saying, “Oh, you must be the plumber!” and the guy says, “Um… no I’m not.” Just as one example, Buddha outright denied divinity.

Finally, of course Jesus would say that God “only speaks through Him alone”.
He’s look pretty silly if He said that sometime in the future there will be a guy called Muhammad, then a thousand years later theres the Bab, then theres Baha’u’llah, then theres…

HE SPEAKS TO THE AUDIENCE, and tells them the way it is AT THAT TIME…

This view makes God and man out to be really silly and lacking the necessary IQ to communicate properly. The Jewish prophets had zero problem predicting and looking forward to the Messiah, Who we Christians know to be Jesus. It was extensively written about.

Will every Christian on the planet be saved? If not why not?

Yes, every person who is an actual Christian will be saved.

…thats what we are here for Kliska, to explore what is the “proper world view on sin” and our “relationship with God”

What is your understanding of these concepts?

Sin is a lack of faith; whatsoever is not of faith is sin. For sin comes death both of a spiritual nature and a physical nature. God, in His justice, has set forth consequences, and God in His mercy and love, has set forth an answer. Anyone that has missed the mark, anyone that sins separates themselves from God. Jesus on the cross is where God’s Justice and Mercy meet and He has provided this Way to be back in right relationship to Him. If you deny Jesus’ sacrifice was both necessary and sufficient to do so, you lack faith, and are spitting on the sacrifice of God Himself that was done for you.

There is one entrance to the sheepfold, we are trying to help you see that entrance.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sounds like you want to debate more than explore… LOL

Let’s just say, exploration through debate.

 

[Servant19]

Sounds like you want to debate more than explore… LOL

I think when the majority of my posts are actually posing legitimate questions, maybe debating is not really what I am doing.

I am spending a long time trying to make the several loose ends to meet with this concept…and I need your help

.

 

[Servant19]

OK sounds good I’ll start I believe Kliska makes a great point. I see no comparison to Jesus.

Why wouldn’t you believe the statistical probability of Jesus Christ being exactly who he claimed to be. The odds of one man fulfilling 48 prophecies let alone over 150 are 1X10 to the 157 power.

To put this in perspective that’s about the same as building a BOX which you could fit the entire universe in, then filling it with copper BBs, and adding one which is silver, and then picking out the silver by random chance on the first attempt. This would be trillions times more likely than the odds of one person fulfilling all the prophecies that Christ fulfilled. No occurrence in history or physical science has been verified with a higher degree of statistical certainty that the fact Christ is exactly who he claimed to be.

No one in history has been more recognized in the arts than Jesus Christ, not literature, painting, poetry, non fiction writing. More words have been written about Christ than any other event or person in history.

No theologian or historian would dispute the fact that Jesus Christ was the single most influential figure ever to walk the face of the earth.

His actions, words, and miracles changed the course of history. He has inspired entire societies to incorporate compassion and mercy into their cultures. He redefined the standards of morality. He not only changed the course of nations. He bought an unexplainable measure of purpose, peace and joy into the lives of hundreds of millions of people.

Historically and statistically speaking…there is no equal! This man named Jesus Christ had the ability to impart hope to those in despair, joy to those with broken hearts, and bought, taught and permeated a peace which is able to subdue even the most paralyzing fear. He transformed hating hearts to loving hearts, minds driven by greed to one overflowing with generosity, lives ruled by arrogance into one driven by the desire to serve others. He gave sight to the blind, delivered those in captivity, forgave the wrongdoer, and gave life to the dead.

I know of no other like this man, and that is because He is no man. He is exactly who He claimed to be…The Living God, and there certainly is every reason to believe He will come again.

Consider the facts

Born to a peasant couple in the middle of no-where.

Born in a country occupied by foreign conquerors

The only transportation he had was his legs.

No mass communication, he never left a 200 mile radius, he never wrote a word, and He only preached for 3-years. Three Years!

He was falsely accused and convicted in a rigged trail. He was sentenced to death by an individual who thought he was innocent.

He died the death of a criminal and died on a cross between two convicted criminals.

Only his mother and a few friends were present. Everyone else fled and hid. Only after he rose from the dead did his followers return. But they had no means to spread his story and teachings to a mass audience. There were no radios, televisions, printing press, in fact paper as we know was not even invented yet. Papyrus had to be painstakingly written by hand. And the only way to make a copy was to repeat the process and laboriously copy the original.

The idea of any individual but God actually accomplishing the above is in a word “laughable”

Hi Gary, we all know Jesus existed, and we all know He was crucified, but I did not see one piece of objective, independent evidence about one aspect of Jesus’ life in your post.

(hint: you will find some in the Quran, and Baha’i Writings)

Can you please provide one?

 

[SteveVH]

Dear friend, Steve.

I genuinely believe there is a flaw in the logic of original sin and it is not the true teaching of Jesus.

You are welcome to your opinion. Are you willing to admit that you might not have all the information necessary in order to form an accurate opinion? Is that possible?

I am here to discuss this with you all in order that you may be drawn closer to Jesus, not to doctrine.

When you speak of Jesus and I speak of Jesus we are speaking of two completely different people. You speak of a man who did not rise physically from the grave and who cannot save us from our sins. Your interest is in bringing people closer to Baha’u’llah, not Jesus.

Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

Free will is not a flaw in the system. It is one of the attributes of being created in the image and likeness of God. God did not create puppets or robots but rather beings with a rational mind and the free will to make choices. It is the choices made by us free-willed beings that caused the need for our loving God to save us. My I ask you, Servant, how do you explain the evil which is present in the world and which ensnares all of us to varying degrees?

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections which Christianity and Jesus Himself places God under. When thoroughly and intellectually analysed, it either breaks apart itself, or breaks God apart as someone severely flawed and imperfect.

And Catholic exegetes for the last 2000 years have been so intellectually weak that they have missed this, yet you, in your enlightened state have thoroughly analyzed all aspects of this doctrine and are now here to give us the real truth.

I’m here to explore this with you all

Then I would begin with learning what we really teach. You might want to start by googling original sin and the early Church Fathers. See for yourself what the early Church in the first few centuries believed. Then your arguments might have some credibility. Right now its just another opinion based upon flawed information.

 

[Servant19]

With Krishna it’s a bit different,

Lets explore this why do you think its different with Krsna?

but if we look at Buddha and Moses, we see plainly in the teachings that we do have that they did not believe they were God nor did they consider themselves to be inherently salvific; that just because of who and what they were they would save others. Rather Buddha had a system, and Moses had a covenant, Jesus Himself is the Way.

Why can’t a Founder of a religion offer eternal life, not as God, but as a perfect Representative of God? Why can’t Buddha’s system and Moses’s Law provide eternal life in blissful union with their Creator?

(and before you say that Buddhism does not believe in a Creator, I can give you the names of several ancient Buddhist traditions that believe in a Creator)

No, actually they don’t. Their view of salvation is very different than the view put forth by the Abrahamic faiths.

My apologies, by “saved” in that passage I posted, I should have written “eternal life”…it’s evident that eternal life was available to ALL, long before Jesus…

Your analogy fails because it would be like someone knocking on the door, you opening it and saying, “Oh, you must be the plumber!” and the guy says, “Um… no I’m not.” Just as one example, Buddha outright denied divinity.

I do not recall ever reading any passage where Moses was asked if He was the Saviour, nor with Buddha, or anyone else prior to Jesus. My point is that through Moses, Buddha, and Krsna there was eternal life, and if there was any documentation of them being asked if they have within their grasp the power to “save” a dying soul, they would say YES.

Why? Because Moses brought a spiritless nation of peoples towards a spiritual communion with YHWH. Were Moses to never exist, they would have been spiritually dead for another millennium, but Moses “saved” them and gave them LIFE!

This view makes God and man out to be really silly and lacking the necessary IQ to communicate properly. The Jewish prophets had zero problem predicting and looking forward to the Messiah, Who we Christians know to be Jesus. It was extensively written about.

In Psalms we read that “He made His ways known to Moses…” and eventually God’s way became Moses’s way and lead the children of Israel.

In Hindu Scripture we read:
“Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 7.6)

Why should we believe that Jesus is “the way” and the ONLY way?

Yes, every person who is an actual Christian will be saved.

Really? Even those that commit heinous crimes?
Ok so will all Muslims and Jews be saved?

Sin is a lack of faith; whatsoever is not of faith is sin. For sin comes death both of a spiritual nature and a physical nature. God, in His justice, has set forth consequences, and God in His mercy and love, has set forth an answer. Anyone that has missed the mark, anyone that sins separates themselves from God. Jesus on the cross is where God’s Justice and Mercy meet and He has provided this Way to be back in right relationship to Him. If you deny Jesus’ sacrifice was both necessary and sufficient to do so, you lack faith, and are spitting on the sacrifice of God Himself that was done for you.

There is one entrance to the sheepfold, we are trying to help you see that entrance.

The Jews before Jesus had faith. You cannot say they were “lacking in faith”. Were they therefore sinners? Why were they denied anything beyond Abraham’s bosom? They had incredible faith…

Why would God deny this “entrance to the sheepfold” to all those souls that had faith in God?

 

[Servant19]

You are welcome to your opinion. Are you willing to admit that you might not have all the information necessary in order to form an accurate opinion? Is that possible?

When you speak of Jesus and I speak of Jesus we are speaking of two completely different people. You speak of a man who did not rise physically from the grave and who cannot save us from our sins. Your interest is in bringing people closer to Baha’u’llah, not Jesus.

Free will is not a flaw in the system. It is one of the attributes of being created in the image and likeness of God. God did not create puppets or robots but rather beings with a rational mind and the free will to make choices. It is the choices made by us free-willed beings that caused the need for our loving God to save us. My I ask you, Servant, how do you explain the evil which is present in the world and which ensnares all of us to varying degrees?

And Catholic exegetes for the last 2000 years have been so intellectually weak that they have missed this, yet you, in your enlightened state have thoroughly analyzed all aspects of this doctrine and are now here to give us the real truth.

Then I would begin with learning what we really teach. You might want to start by googling original sin and the early Church Fathers. See for yourself what the early Church in the first few centuries believed. Then your arguments might have some credibility. Right now its just another opinion based upon flawed information.

Steve are you saying that “original sin” and “free will” are one and the same thing?

.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Gary, we all know Jesus existed, and we all know He was crucified, but I did not see one piece of objective, independent evidence about one aspect of Jesus’ life in your post.

(hint: you will find some in the Quran, and Baha’i Writings)

Can you please provide one?

May I ask why we are to believe that the Quran and Baha’i writings should be considered “objective”, “independent” sources as to the life of Christ but that the Christian Scriptures should be excluded? Are you kidding me? By their very nature they are bias sources at best.

 

[Servant19]

May I ask why we are to believe that the Quran and Baha’i writings should be considered “objective”, “independent” sources as to the life of Christ but that the Christian Scriptures should be excluded? Are you kidding me? By their very nature they are bias sources at best.

You are correct Steve, they are subjective to Islam or the Bahai Faith. But by objective here, we are trying to locate non-Christian sources to verify the historicity of the Gospel accounts.

For example, there is no objective proof of the virgin birth, but this is verified in the Baha’i Writings to be true, so this adds veracity to this Christian claim…

 

[SteveVH]

Steve are you saying that “original sin” and “free will” are one and the same thing?

.

You have a habit of ignoring or glossing over my specific points and questions. Please go back through my post and address my points one by one.

As to this specific question, original sin came about because of free will, not because there was some flaw in God’s system. Adam and Eve were not forced to disobey God. They chose, through their own free will, to disobey God. When they did, human nature was changed forever. We suffered spiritual death, as God promised Adam and Eve should they ever eat of the tree. It would take God himself to restore the supernatural life with which we were originally created.

Original sin is the lack of spiritual life which we have inherited. This life is restored through Baptism by which we enter the family of God as through a door. This was made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I will wait for your comments on the rest of my post.

 

[Servant19]

You have a habit of ignoring or glossing over my specific points and questions. Please go back through my post and address my points one by one.

My apologies, my intention was not to gloss over (how did this become a habit? ), but I feel its obvious that I do not have a full grasp of the concept, hence the questions. I also feel, maybe most Christians do not have a good grasp of the concept either. Maybe there is no good grasp of the concept existent.

The rest of your points I felt were for another thread…don’t require individual addressing

As to this specific question, original sin came about because of free will, not because there was some flaw in God’s system.

Yes, that may be so, but the flaw is found in God’s design to allow it to be “inherited” without pre-empting as such. It denies Him omnipotence…and justness…and love…

(because if death is the result, it’s not much fun for my children…I know better)

If you can’t see this flaw, then maybe the Christians are “debating” rather than “exploring” objectively…

Adam and Eve were not forced to disobey God. They chose, through their own free will, to disobey God. When they did, human nature was changed forever. We suffered spiritual death, as God promised Adam and Eve should they ever eat of the tree. It would take God himself to restore the supernatural life with which we were originally created.

That’s the flaw…right there…

Also, if Adam and Eve were the “models” of God’s “original creation” why did they sin?
Does this mean that when Jesus comes again and “restores” the “supernatural life” of men, that we can still sin?

Original sin is the lack of spiritual life which we have inherited.

I just don’t see that accurately reflected in early age children at all. A babies entire life revolves around love for the mother.

An inherited “lack of spiritual life” would manifest more strongly in childhood than in adults.
A good look around you will tell you that it is the opposite.

This life is restored through Baptism by which we enter the family of God as through a door. This was made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I will wait for your comments on the rest of my post.

Again, a good look around you will show quite clearly that there are many baptised individuals who have no “restoration of the spiritual life”…I will not dwell on individual cases within the world of Christianity, but its not hard to see that to remove the “inherited lack of spiritual life” through baptism in a lot of cases fails…

.

 

[SteveVH]

You are correct Steve, they are subjective to Islam or the Bahai Faith. But by objective here, we are trying to locate non-Christian sources to verify the historicity of the Gospel accounts.

The New Testament and much of the Old Testament is very historical. It names times and places and people that comport perfectly with history. And we have the writers of the New Testament themselves who were eye-witnesses to the life of Christ. I would ask you to find something in the Bible that you believe contradicts historical reality. Then we might have something to discuss. As a Christian, the last place I would go for verification is to the very entity that desires Christianity to be wiped off the face of the earth (Islam) or holds Jesus in the same realm as mere prophets (Baha’i).

 

[SteveVH]

My apologies, my intention was not to gloss over (how did this become a habit? ), but I feel its obvious that I do not have a full grasp of the concept, hence the questions.

If you believe that you do not have a full grasp of the concept then why do you feel you can criticize it? Wouldn’t that be better done after you have a full grasp of the concept? Should I make a critique of Buddhist beliefs before I really even know what those beliefs are?

I also feel, maybe most Christians do not have a good grasp of the concept either. Maybe there is no good grasp of the concept existent.

Well, unfortunately, many times our “feelings” are not correct. The Catholic Church understands the concept very well.

Yes, that may be so, but the flaw is found in God’s design to allow it to be “inherited” without pre-empting as such. It denies Him omnipotence…and justness…and love…

(because if death is the result, it’s not much fun for my children…I know better)

Is there a flaw in God’s design which allows innocent infants to be born with a genetic disease inherited from a parent which may result in their death? How do you explain that?

If you can’t see this flaw, then maybe the Christians are “debating” rather than “exploring” objectively…

Your statement is predicated on the assumption that it is a flaw. I don’t agree in the least with that assumption.

Also, if Adam and Eve were the “models” of God’s “original creation” why did they sin? Does this mean that when Jesus comes again and “restores” the “supernatural life” of men, that we can still sin?

No, because Christ has defeated sin. We will no longer be disposed toward sin after our purification and entrance into the life of God.

I just don’t see that accurately reflected in early age children at all. A babies entire life revolves around love for the mother.

An inherited “lack of spiritual life” would manifest more strongly in childhood than in adults.
A good look around you will tell you that it is the opposite.

Do you have children? What is absolutely evident in all children is that they must learn to give up their selfish desires. When a small child sees a toy that they desire it is not uncommon for them to rip it out of the arms of another child and take it as their own. When they are hungry they will cry until they are fed, no matter how tired the poor mother may be. A child must be taught to share, to sacrifice for others… to love. And we must do this with patience. But the entire life of a child revolves around satisfying his innate desires and this carries into adulthood if not addressed early on. Love requires sacrifice and sacrifice is not easy, nor is it natural. Actually, it is supernatural.

Again, a good look around you will show quite clearly that there are many baptised individuals who have no “restoration of the spiritual life”…I will not dwell on individual cases within the world of Christianity, but its not hard to see that to remove the “inherited lack of spiritual life” through baptism in a lot of cases fails…

Baptism carries a responsibility. It is not a matter of waving a wand and “poof” we have a perfect Christian. We must live out our Baptismal calling as children of God. Again, we can choose to reject the grace received in Baptism, and, unfortunately we do this every time we sin. But God has provided a way to restore that grace through his sacraments.

 

[GaryTaylor]

we are trying to locate non-Christian sources to verify the historicity of the Gospel accounts.

For example, there is no objective proof of the virgin birth, but this is verified in the Baha’i Writings to be true, so this adds veracity to this Christian claim…

What sources outside Baha’l do you have beside the Quran and Bible etc? Each one denounces the other as the objective truth.

What do you have that Baha’l has, outside objective evidence in this regard? Who verifys anything you say is true and is objective evidence, you? Certainly not any of the faiths you read sola scripture into.

Its a Straw man.

 

[Kliska]

Lets explore this why do you think its different with Krsna?

“Krishna” is a part of the Hindu religion. If I were to answer this it would be with a direct attack against the idea of Krishna, and the Hindu religion, where it came from and what it is based on. I’m not going there.

Why can’t a Founder of a religion offer eternal life, not as God, but as a perfect Representative of God? Why can’t Buddha’s system and Moses’s Law provide eternal life in blissful union with their Creator?

They sure can offer it! The difference is who can deliver.

(and before you say that Buddhism does not believe in a Creator, I can give you the names of several ancient Buddhist traditions that believe in a Creator)

And I can give you plenty that describe an atheism.

My apologies, by “saved” in that passage I posted, I should have written “eternal life”…it’s evident that eternal life was available to ALL, long before Jesus…

All humans, by fact of being human, are eternal in the sense that they won’t cease to exist, however, the eternal life Jesus talks of isn’t just eternal existence. And, yes, all people have always had a chance to faithe on God, not all did.

I do not recall ever reading any passage where Moses was asked if He was the Saviour, nor with Buddha, or anyone else prior to Jesus. My point is that through Moses, Buddha, and Krsna there was eternal life, and if there was any documentation of them being asked if they have within their grasp the power to “save” a dying soul, they would say YES.

Now you are speaking for these people? I have no comeback to imagined dialogue.

Why? Because Moses brought a spiritless nation of peoples towards a spiritual communion with YHWH. Were Moses to never exist, they would have been spiritually dead for another millennium, but Moses “saved” them and gave them LIFE!

No, Moses was used by God, with his will, to deliver the Israelites out of Egypt and to est. a covenant between the chosen people and God. God was their Saviour and Moses was a messiah and type of The Messiah.

Why should we believe that Jesus is “the way” and the ONLY way?

Because that is specifically what He taught, and specifically what He proved by being born of a virgin, living a sin-free life, dying, and raising 3 days later.

Ok so will all Muslims and Jews be saved?

Short answer: It depends. Long answer: It depends on their level of knowledge. God will judge us on what we know and respond to, not what we don’t know.

The Jews before Jesus had faith. You cannot say they were “lacking in faith”. Were they therefore sinners? Why were they denied anything beyond Abraham’s bosom? They had incredible faith…

Indeed righteous OT saints had faith and are hence with God in Heaven. They aren’t denied anything beyond Abraham’s bosom, they are currently in Heaven with God.

Why would God deny this “entrance to the sheepfold” to all those souls that had faith in God?

The church is different. God is a covenant making God; His covenant with the Jewish people is not the same covenant I’m a part of. Jesus was the fulfillment of the old, and the Institute of the new. Just because the covenant is different doesn’t mean the destination is. The OT saints are in Heaven.