What is the "good news"?

[meltzerboy]

How very Mormonitious of you.

I’ve never been called “Mormonitious” before. It’s likely not a compliment methinks, but it does have a certain appeal.

 

[meltzerboy]

There’s a ton of theology here, lets start with my quote;

2 Corinthians 5: 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Remember the Isaiah verses; Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5** But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities**: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So, the good news is that indeed all sin was laid upon the Lamb; Jesus, and the sacrifice was in payment. The judgment of God the Father was landed on God the Son, and the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, and did not raise physically til 3 days later, and only ascended after that in a glorified state.

Thanks for all the information. But not Isaiah, please: it’s so controversial in that Judaism interprets the “suffering servant” as Israel since the prophet explicitly calls Jacob (Israel) G-d’s suffering servant several times in the verses that precede this passage. In rebuttal, one might say that there is a double meaning, in which Jesus may be the new Israel. However, the counter-rebuttal to this argument is that Isaiah appears to be talking about the end of days when the other nations of the world recognize and atone for the harm they inflicted upon Israel and are finally able to live together in peace. One must read and study the whole Book of Isaiah to get a better idea concerning what the words of this most challenging prophet may mean and whether or not they are truly messianic.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I’ve never been called “Mormonitious” before. It’s likely not a compliment methinks, but it does have a certain appeal.

Mormonitious
– To change from one essential doctrinal religious imperative to another without explanation.
There is an appeal to the word, kinda. Shawn McCraney who invented the word said it sounds almost like a cookie!

You were talking about “translation errors” and so forth, when it was actually the
Jewish people themselves who changed Scripture, led by men like Rabbi Akiva.

Example: Psalm 45 - “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,” changed to, “Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever.”

See the Qumran Scrolls and the Epistle to the Hebrews which attests to the original version.

 

[Servant19]

(Your quotes shortened for space)
Alright, so Baha’u’llah good, Bible not good, not God-Breathed.

Nope, I didn’t say that Judas
Have I ever misquoted you Judas…lets focus brother

That’s very Mormon of you, you know.

…and what you are saying is very Westboro Baptist Churchian of you
…lets try to be more mature in our responses brother, please…

Now did Jesus break the Law of Moses? I have an easy to follow link,
ask that you continue looking for Apologetics on this matter, but according to the link
Jesus did not break the Law but would have if the woman was stoned:
http://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/did-jesus-contradict-the-bible-by-not-stoning-the-woman-caught-in-adultery/
Now why don’t we stone adulteresses today? Because Jesus fulfilled the Law for us,
was made sin for us though he was sinless, and has made the perfect atonement to
satisfy God’s displeasure towards us.

My friend, we can extrapolate and interpret what Jesus actually did in this narrative, and it is all mere speculation.
What is not speculation is the fact that this Law of Moses is not in any way practiced by Christians today…why is that?
Is the Church contradicting the Law of Moses?

Well I would cite John 14:10-11 and Colossians 2:9. Also, I know you discount the Christian interpretation of
John 1, but the Word was (eternally) God, was made flesh, pitched his tent among us, can be described as a
walking tabernacle so to speak.

Friend, can’t you see that the words “the Word is God” completely ingnores the phrase “the Word was with God”?

Why does Christianity focus on ONLY the things that make Jesus into God, but rather ignores the phrases that contradict that assertion?

“God-Breathed”, “Inspired by God”, and so forth in the context of Scripture means that the Holy Book says what it says because God willed it.

Yes, God “willed” it to “happen”, but it is not the Fountain of the Word of God…only Jesus gave you that in the Christian dispensation.
For the Holy Spirit to manifest itself in all its purity and majesty, it must emanate from a sinless being. Only the Manifestation of God is sinless. They are the judge on what is and what is not sin, and are the PERFECT embodiment of the Holy Spirit.
Again, this is an insight which has come about as a result of the historical authenticity of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and their Apostles, who also, were endowed with the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."

At no point does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit enables one to speak the authentic Word of God, like Jesus did…

Such is the work of the Holy Spirit, to inspire the Prophets and the Apostles and those who knew them to write everything down that God wants
do be written down. To question the Scriptures is to deny the sovereignty of the Spirit, which sounds like what you are doing, as though you are
suggesting that God was never ever behind the Bible.

No, to question the Scriptures, ESPECIALLY when it puts words into Jesus’ mouth which were never stated is to question, not the Holy Spirit, but the sinful condition of all human beings, and that includes the Apostles. They were not Jesus and never will be, unless you believe in a Trinity that is shared with the Apostles…a Dodecahedrinity (I think)…

Either God was or God was not, simple as that, because you can’t say that the Scriptures
were inspired by God at one point, only then say that God liked it for time, thought it was all fun, but later just left it to rot.

Yes God is God. The Words of Jesus are the Words of God. Everything else is lesser to that and merely “inspired” extrapolation from Jesus’ Words and teachings.

When Baha’u’llah exhorts us to read the Word of God every day and night, He means the Words of Baha’u’llah or the bab, NOTHING ELSE. Although Baha’is rever Abdu’l-Baha enormously, His words are not the Word of God…

Well for # 1:

But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart,
that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep
part of the price of the land? Whilst it remained, did it not re-
main to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power?
Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast
not lied to men, but to God.

• (Acts 5:3–4)

Again, I think the Apostles are talking epistemologically again. For ontology, I think the Words of Jesus are closer to the truth rather than Luke or Paul.

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” John 14:26

Again, please consider that the Holy Spirit is not God, but is an EMANATION of the Father which is showered forth upon humanity “constantly” so that humanity may show forth its fruits…

.​

 

[Servant19]

Very good question, because the Devil wants to split of Christianity. Not everyone agrees with each other on various matters, but
that doesn’t make Christianity not true. We are ALL in agreement on the most fun-
damental points of Christianity, though some’ll
question the need of a pope, others hate bishops, everybody wants to be their own
priest, but here’s a video worth considering:youtube.com/watch?v=MZ5tEzXxSvs

So the Devil is winning in its battle over God?

Why is the video worth considering when it is saying that the Catholic Church is the only true denomination?
Why is Westboro Baptist Church not the right denomination?

Didn’t the Holy Spirit pour out on all flesh? Who is the true embodiment of the Holy Spirit?
Which denomination and why?

Yes, both describe the Holy Spirit.

If the Spirit of Truth is also the Holy Spirit, then this Spirit must have ears and eyes and must be able to hear, see and talk. I didn’t know a spirit can do that…

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." - John 16:12

It is evident that the Spirit of Truth is not the Holy Spirit. The Helper is the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit of Truth is a human being…

No it doesn’t. God can give himself for us to study and to learn, but
we can’t know everything about God which is what you’re suggest–
ing, because there CAN’T BE a mystery about God. And the Incar-
nation and the Eucharist are not exactly decent parallels.

I’m not at all suggesting we can know everything about God. I am suggesting that what we do know about God does not contradict other things we know about God, which is what is happening when we emphasize that the Word IS God without also emphasising that the Word is WITH God…

Because I prefer 2,000 year old true books over false prophets.

And so do I

There’s not even a better word I could use in response to this than “Stupid.” Why? Daniel is not talking about the Bible, but a
single scroll, the seals of which which Jesus himself would break. Not talking about
the same thing here. Now, Jesus came to
be the Revelation of God the Father, and to whom was he revealed most? The Apostles.

If the Apostles knew Jesus so well, and they insist that Jesus IS God, why was Jesus not quoted as saying as such?

They weemed to be able to quote almost everything else that Jesus said, but they couldn’t quote Jesus telling them that He was God?

No, God can be in one place and everywhere all at the same time. You limit God in that
respect, saying that it just can’t be, my human brain cannot understand that therefore it
isn’t true. Sorry, no.

My friend, if He is within the walls of the Temple and also unlimited at the same time, then the “TOTALITY” of God is not within the walls of the Temple…maybe therefore it wasn’t God within those 4 walls after all

Why would I worship a god that I can fully understand? If I fully understand God then I am his equal.
As a Christian, I don’t think it’s cool to bring man up to the level of God or to bring God down to our
level. There really can’t be a way to bridge the difference between Creature and Creator, is it that dif-
ficult to understand?

The “epistemological God” called Jesus, otr Baha’u’llah, is as good as a human being can know or comprehend about the “ontological God”…its really very simple.

Why? Because they were manifested as human beings, which we can instantly relate to in thought, example and language…

The Holy Spirit apparently stopped guiding the Church very early on in your view, because the
Baha’i say that Christianity is not true, that it doesn’t understand the nature of God or of Jesus,
so it is a reasonable conclusion that in the Baha’i Faith, the Holy Spirit never was there in the
first place.

Again, no, I never said that. The Holy Spirit worked through the Church and produced wonderful fruits which were manifested so beautifully in its righteous communities, which were praised by many observers.

Again, I never said that Christianity is not true either, just as muuch as you do not saiy that Judaism is not true. We continuation of Revelation to another Revelation is clearly obvious, but the veils of man-made knowledge needs to be burned away in order to see it

.

 

[tawny]

According to your understanding of Christianity, what is the good news (the gospel)?

The Proclamation of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Kliska]

Thanks for all the information. But not Isaiah, please: it’s so controversial in that Judaism interprets the “suffering servant” as Israel since the prophet explicitly calls Jacob (Israel) G-d’s suffering servant several times in the verses that precede this passage. In rebuttal, one might say that there is a double meaning, in which Jesus may be the new Israel. However, the counter-rebuttal to this argument is that Isaiah appears to be talking about the end of days when the other nations of the world recognize and atone for the harm they inflicted upon Israel and are finally able to live together in peace. One must read and study the whole Book of Isaiah to get a better idea concerning what the words of this most challenging prophet may mean and whether or not they are truly messianic.

You’re welcome, and I understand. The debates of Isaiah have being going for quite a long time. Obviously as a Christian having studied the book I do think it applies quite specifically to Jesus as Messiah, but have read the debates back and forth. I offered as evidence as to what we believe and why, as it is linked from the OT to the New.

Peace to you.

 

[Servant19]

Face-Value is the exact same thing. You focus on one verse, then derive the
meaning of that one verse all by yourself, refusing thus to let the Bible explain.

Please tell me where the Bible “explains” that Jesus is God.
I’m happy to take the Bible in its entirety, but if you are going to take the Apostles word for it that Jesus is “ontologically” God, then I can assure you, you are in error.

Let me explain:

Imagine that you have NEVER EVER seen, eaten, smelled or heard about an orange. If I were to one day, give you an orange, you would say “What is it?”. If I asked you to describe it, you would use descriptive words to refer to its attributes. Only when someone who knows for sure that its an orange TELLS you that its an orange will you refer to it as an orange. It is only thereafter with that “knowledge” that you can refer to another orange as an “orange”…

Now, in this like manner, unless Jesus had specifically said that He is God to the Apostles, (which would undoubtedly be recorded like so many other parables, statements etc) the Apostles would only have had a man-made understanding of God right?

So unless the Apostles had an ontological understanding of God before they met Jesus, would they have been able to match that understanding with Jesus’ Person, unless Jesus specifically matched Himself with the Godhead, which He didn’t, so it can only be concluded that the Apostles were mistaken on an ontological level to call Jesus God…

That is an assumption on your part that the “greater” is in reference to some sort of capacity.

Whatever the “greater” means, in any language “greater” does not mean “equal”…you seem to be stuck, dear friend…liberate yourself brother…

No no, you missed what I meant. You don’t want to see the Word as God, so you avoid
what the text says and insert your own meanings into the Gospel. That is depressing.

Let us assume that the Apostles were right to conclude that Jesus is God, why would you not take the Bible in its entirety yourself?
You deny that the Father is greater than the Son, or you create man-made terms such as “office” to assist the obvious flaw in theology…
Even if this “office” scenario is the truth, then how can anything exist that is greater than God “in office”?
Nothing is greater than God, not …one…thing

When Jesus identified himself with the I AM, when Thomas saw the resurrected Christ and explained
TO Jesus “My Lord and My God” (yet no rebuttal from Jesus), any verse in which the original Greek
uses the word monogenes in reference to Jesus, indicating that he is the unique Son of God, not just
one in creation or adoption, but is of the exact same nature as God the Father, the same being.

We have already discussed that the “I am” is still a created entity. God is beyond eternity and timelessness. If you think God is an eternal Being, you have described God…God is indescribable…

How so?

Because you introduce “offices” etc etc, none of which is found in the scriptures, even the word office only appears once in the Bible and it most definitely is not talking about the station of the Father and Son

That’s right, Jesus is not his own Being, but his own Person. He is One with the Father
and the Holy Spirit, yet is distinct in Person. That is what the Bible indicates, you can’t
accept that, so you need to twist Scripture to have it meet your own conclusions.

There are lot of things the Bible “indicates”…some conclude correctly on these indications, some incorrectly. I am so delighted to have the Lord validate to mankind the correct “indications” so that we may all be liberated from prejudice and ungodliness…

Equivocation is a logical fallacy, You can’t just use the word “greater” in one and only one
way in every instance. Now each person of the Trinity VOLUNTARILY assumes a different
role in the salvation of humanity.
It is very typical in Islam to assume that if one has a greater role, obviously
that one must be far better than his other counterparts. Not surprising then
that Baha’u’llah follows that same false philosophy.
In Christianity, The Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit VOLUNTARILY take on different roles,
not because one is stronger than the other, as you presume, but rather it is a willful choice
that the Son submits to the Father and that the Holy Spirit submits to the will of the Father
and the Son. “Greater” does not mean better in this case, don’t read into it.

Please show me “any instance” where greater is the same as equal…

I do not presume anything about the meaning of “greater”…you will notice, that I do not ever say what exactly it means, I just know that it means “greater”

Christianity on the other hand has made grandiose assumptions and presumptions and come up with the term “office”

If this is from God and not man-made, then I propose Fred Phelps is the God also !!



.

 

[Servant19]

This is not a scriptural description of what Jesus’s sacrifice did, and certainly doesn’t explain away the fact that He actually bought us. Jesus became sin for us, and enabled us to have peace between us and God.

How is this peace manifested Kliska?
Do non-Christians not have peace with God?

And that is one reason why I say you preach another gospel. There is a sacrifice and it is a once and for all sacrifice. No more sacrifice now remains for sin; Jesus paid it all

Why would God make humanity wait for thousands of years for this to be done?
All those wasted lives before Jesus’ coming…(where is the love?)

And, understand, we are warning for a reason. I understand your intent, and that you believe differently, but we are Christians for a reason, and believe if you pass away while rejecting Jesus as God, bad things are going to happen. Also, it being a public forum we are aware others are reading.

I accept Jesus for EXACTLY what He Himself said He was, a Messenger of God who worked in tandem with the Father, but was sent by the Father all the same…

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Yes, as I’ve been saying to Judas, you seem to conveniently avoid the bit that says “the Word was WITH God”

When you are WITH something you cannot also BE that something, especially on an ontological level…(please read my posts to Judas)

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Kliska, do you know the context in which the letter to the Galatians was written?
This was a letter responding to a DIRECT attack on the righteous nature of the community of Jesus.
You yourself know that when a Messenger like Jesus comes, a new gospel is preached, which is why adulterers are not stoned to death today in the Christian community. If its good enough for Christianity to relativize the Law, then its good enough for Baha’u’llah to relativize the gospel.

 

[Servant19]

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Baha’u’llah does not deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh…

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. **24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. **25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Again, Baha’u’llah does not deny Jesus is the Christ…

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

How have you “tried the Spirit” of Baha’u’llah Kliska?

“Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God”, meaning that should a spirit confess that Jesus DID come in the flesh, then they are of God.

Baha’u’llah on numerous occasions lauds Jesus and deifies Him immensely, and unhesitatingly confesses that Jesus did come in the flesh

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Etc, etc…

Again, Baha’u’llah acknowledges the salvific role Jesus played in His ministry, so how exactly is He a false Prophet again?

I also am still waiting for where in the Baha’i Writings Jesus is disrespected…

.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Do you mean that Jesus literally “became sin for us”? And, if so, are you saying that G-d can become sin or do you mean that only the human Jesus became sin, or both? Do you believe that Jesus, who is purported to have been sinless during his physical human existence on earth, became the epitome of sin in his death? How could He enter heaven then and join the Father if He is so full of sin; wouldn’t He have to be cleansed and free of sin? Finally, is this strictly a Protestant view or do Catholics also believe that Jesus literally took on all the sins of humanity and, in so doing, paid its ransom?

Sometimes we have to use human terminology when we speak of things that are really beyond words.

Jesus took ALL of the sins of all of humanity of all time upon Himself.

Jesus did not take these sins to just His human side or just His Divine side, so to speak, because there is no human side or Divine side, Jesus Is Jesus, so He took these sins upon Himself, Himself being totally human and totally Divine, just as we do not, so to speak, have our mother’s side or our father’s side but we are who we are.

When Jesus cried out from the cross, “My God, My God why have thou forsaken Me?”, He wasn’t saying this because He thought it was a good time to say a psalm but because what was written long before was becoming true as He spoke.

It was as if God turned His Back on God and in this, God stretched Himself out, so to speak, beyond the uttermost depths of hell.

Jesus went to, experienced, however one wishes to look at it, to everyone’s hell since hell is not some monolithic place but is custom built by everyone by their wrongdoings, sins or however one wishes to think about it to be called.

There was much more going on at the cross than just the physical.

Jesus did pay the “ransom” and He paid it for everyong, this is how he “won” the “keys” and He will use these keys in due time, God’s Time.

I am not a theologian, just a simple messenger.

The “Good News” is simple in its ultimate message which is that God reconciled ALL with God.

Many seem to be more interested in the “details”, than in the simple message of the Good News.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Nope, I didn’t say that Judas
[needed space]

If the Bible says that Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac but Baha’u’llah says the Qur’an
is more correct in saying it was Ishmael, I can’t really interpret that any other way than in
the Baha’i Faith: Baha’u’llah overrides the Qur’an overrides the Bible.

My friend, we can extrapolate and interpret what Jesus actually did in this narrative, and it is all mere speculation.
What is not speculation is the fact that this Law of Moses is not in any way practiced by Christians today. Why is that?
Is the Church contradicting the Law of Moses?

No, no speculation, but good contextual analysis.
Anyway, why don’t we follow the Old Covenant
anymore? Because we’re in the New Covenant.
Yes, we are under the New Covenant, recall when Jesus said in Luke 22:20,
“This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.”
This new covenant was prophesied in the Old Testament in Jer. 31:31,
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord (GOD), “when I will make
a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
(Baha’u’llah was not prophesied, not Muhammad).

Friend, can’t you see that the words “the Word is God” completely ingnores the phrase “the Word was with God”?
Why does Christianity focus on ONLY the things that make Jesus into God, but rather ignores the phrases that contradict that assertion?

Because there isn’t any contradiction, simple as that. If you want to iso-
late one verse and rip it out of its appropriate context, rob it of its mean-
ing, THEN pose it against the Bible passages that profess Christ’s Deity,
then there are contradictions, but not when you look with a critical eye u-
sing tota sciptura (ALL of Scripture).

Yes, God willed it to happen, but it is not the Fountain of the Word of God, only Jesus gave you that in the Christian dispensation.
For the Holy Spirit to manifest itself in all its purity and majesty, it must emanate from a sinless being. Only the Manifestation of God is sinless. [needed space].
Again, this is an insight which has come about as a result of the historical authenticity of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and their Apostles, who also, were endowed with the Holy Spirit.

I’m glad you agree that Jesus is sinless, but that could not be so unless Jesus is God.
Now on what Jesus gave in the Christian dispensation, that doesn’t make much sense
that God would give one truth one time then the next give a completely different truth.

Again: Old Testament says Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac, the New Testament
did not contradict that, yet the Qur’an does, and with it so does Baha’u’llah. The con-
tradictions between Islam and Baha’i to Christianity and Judaism, I do not even need
to work hard at it, but when it comes to you claiming contradictions, it is a matter of
twist & turn, twist & turn, use a hammer if it’s going down…

Galatians 5:22-23
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.”
At no point does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit enables one to speak the authentic Word of God, like Jesus did…

So again, Bible bad, Baha’u’llah good?
How can the Holy Spirit be wrong if he’s God?! Jesus said that the
Holy Spirit would come and teach the Apostles and the Church all
things (and the Holy Spirit did come on the day of Pentecost).

No, to question the Scriptures, ESPECIALLY when it puts words into Jesus’ mouth which were never stated is to question, not the Holy Spirit, but the sinful condition of all human beings, and that includes the Apostles. They were not Jesus and never will be, unless you believe in a Trinity that is shared with the Apostles…a Dodecahedrinity.

What words were put into Jesus’ mouth? Why did Jesus call on Apostles to spread his
Gospel to the world if God new well that the Apostles would get it all wrong? That’s the
the scenario you have presented, that of a clumsy God. That’s why Jesus promised his
Apostles that the Holy Spirit would come and teach them all things.

And where’d you get that “Dodecahedrinity”?

Yes God is God. The Words of Jesus are the Words of God. Everything else is lesser to that and merely “inspired” extrapolation from Jesus’ Words and teachings.
When Baha’u’llah exhorts us to read the Word of God every day and night, He means the Words of Baha’u’llah or the bab, NOTHING ELSE. Although Baha’is rever Abdu’l-Baha enormously, His words are not the Word of God…

So God was never behind the mission of Jesus from the beginning, you’re saying.
Jesus came, taught, died, rose, ascended, and all was lost after that, right? Be-
cause God was never behind the Church is the implication of you’re statement.

Again, I think the Apostles are talking epistemologically again. For ontology, I think the Words of Jesus are closer to the truth rather than Luke or Paul.
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” John 14:26
Again, please consider that the Holy Spirit is not God, but is an EMANATION of the Father which is showered forth upon humanity “constantly” so that humanity may show forth its fruits.

The Holy Spirit is not the Father, but the Holy Spirit is God. You ask for proof that the
Holy Spirit is God, I give you proof, then you “move the goalpost,” saying, “Well, they
were talking all like epistemologically.” The Father is a PERSON, the Holy Spirit is a
PERSON, each having his own Mind, Will, Intellect, Emotion, etc. And how does the
phrase “whom the Father will send” help you’re case at all?

 

[Kliska]

How is this peace manifested Kliska?
Do non-Christians not have peace with God?

No, non-Christians do not have peace with God. Only Jesus provides that peace when we are in Him.

Why would God make humanity wait for thousands of years for this to be done?
All those wasted lives before Jesus’ coming…(where is the love?)

Where in the world do you get this from? Plenty of people prior to Jesus are now in Heaven, including Gentiles and Israelites and those from before.

I accept Jesus for EXACTLY what He Himself said He was, a Messenger of God who worked in tandem with the Father, but was sent by the Father all the same…

Fail; Jesus plainly claimed to be God, St. Thomas declared Him God, the Father declares Him God; The Jews of the day understood this perfectly, either that or you are claiming they are ignorant or not smart people.

God calls Jesus God: Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus’ reign is eternal, and He IS God. Anyone that denies that fails the test of a true teacher and prophet. We continue in Christ, we don’t switch. Ephesians 1: 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Yes, as I’ve been saying to Judas, you seem to conveniently avoid the bit that says “the Word was WITH God”

When you are WITH something you cannot also BE that something, especially on an ontological level…(please read my posts to Judas)

Sorry, no, that is where the Trinity functions. Jesus IS the Word/Wisdom of God manifest as God the Son. It is clear; the Word was God and with God. Jesus is Lord, he who denies that fails the test.

You yourself know that when a Messenger like Jesus comes, a new gospel is preached, which is why adulterers are not stoned to death today in the Christian community. If its good enough for Christianity to relativize the Law, then its good enough for Baha’u’llah to relativize the gospel.

Wrong. The gospel message is solely about Christ, that is what Paul preached. If any come saying that Paul was wrong, and THEY have the good news, they are damned, even if it was an angel from Heaven, such as described in Islam.

Baha’u’llah does not deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh…

He most certainly does. This is a claim of Godhood which he denies.

How have you “tried the Spirit” of Baha’u’llah Kliska?

By his own words; He denies the Master that bought HIM.

Again, Baha’u’llah acknowledges the salvific role Jesus played in His ministry, so how exactly is He a false Prophet again?

Jesus’ reign is ongoing, and is not superseded by any other. It is not made ineffective, to claim such is to spit in His face and deny His sacrifice was totally necessary and sufficient for all time. It is finished, is the claim from the cross.

I also am still waiting for where in the Baha’i Writings Jesus is disrespected…

They Bahai) deny the Master that bought them. There is only one Master that bought them and proved it by raising from the dead bodily.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Please tell me where the Bible “explains” that Jesus is God.

We’ve been over that, you just refuse it all.

Let me explain:
Imagine that you have NEVER EVER seen, eaten, smelled or heard about an orange. If I were to one day, give you an orange, you would say “What is it?”. If I asked you to describe it, you would use descriptive words to refer to its attributes. Only when someone who knows for sure that its an orange TELLS you that its an orange will you refer to it as an orange. It is only thereafter with that “knowledge” that you can refer to another orange as an “orange”…

Now, in this like manner, unless Jesus had specifically said that He is God to the Apostles, (which would undoubtedly be recorded like so many other parables, statements etc) the Apostles would only have had a man-made understanding of God right?

The Apostles had enough understanding to come to the correct conclusion that
Jesus is God, so that is what they taught, being guided by the Holy Spirit, who
is a PERSON, distinct from the Father and the Son, yet is the same God.

So unless the Apostles had an ontological understanding of God before they met Jesus, would they have been able to match that understanding with Jesus’ Person, unless Jesus specifically matched Himself with the Godhead, which He didn’t, so it can only be concluded that the Apostles were mistaken on an ontological level to call Jesus God.

“which he didn’t”? No, Jesus identified himself with the “I AM”, but you except that, so
you have to wiggle your way out of that interpretation. When Jesus says that he is the
First and the Last, just like YHWH in Isaiah, you have to make up some excuse in or-
der to avoid the idea that Jesus is Deity. When Paul says that in Christ the fullness of
the Deity (Being of God) dwelt bodily . . . Seriously, just surrender to the testimony of
Scriptures, besides, Peter warns us against private interpretation which is what you’re
doing.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Thanks for all the information. But not Isaiah, please: it’s so controversial in that Judaism interprets the “suffering servant” as Israel since the prophet explicitly calls Jacob (Israel) G-d’s suffering servant several times in the verses that precede this passage. In rebuttal, one might say that there is a double meaning, in which Jesus may be the new Israel. However, the counter-rebuttal to this argument is that Isaiah appears to be talking about the end of days when the other nations of the world recognize and atone for the harm they inflicted upon Israel and are finally able to live together in peace. One must read and study the whole Book of Isaiah to get a better idea concerning what the words of this most challenging prophet may mean and whether or not they are truly messianic.

You say that Judaism interprets Isaiah one way but there might be a double meaning, who is to say that there might even be more than a double meaning?

Sometimes God, being God, can and does speak on many layers at one time thru one message.

Just because someone may “know” what some verse or verses in the bible means, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are right and if they are right, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they “know” all of the meanings of that verse or verses.

Many, believers and non-believers alike, are going to be quite surprised when they meet God.

Seems to me that many of the believers are going to find out that the only thing that they knew about God was His Name.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Whatever the “greater” means, in any language “greater” does not mean “equal”…you seem to be stuck, dear friend…liberate yourself brother…

I choose not to isolate that verse you’re referring to and thus rob it of its meaning.
If I did, like you, THEN I would be stuck, stuck on that one verse, as you are, but
I let go and allow the entirety of the Bible to clarify its meaning. Just get back to
all earlier responses where I demonstrated that Jesus is God, yet not the same
as the Father or the Holy Spirit (who are also God). There I hold the position that
the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are each and all Fully God, thus
not greater in terms of being; however, there does seem to be a submissive role
being played in the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. You can find that in the New
Testament also. Therefore the Father is GREATER than Jesus, but it I don’t read
into that one verse and say that the Father is clearly greater in BEING, because
Jesus IS THAT SAME BEING.

Let us assume that the Apostles were right to conclude that Jesus is God, why would you not take the Bible in its entirety yourself?

I do and you don’t, that’s the problem.

You deny that the Father is greater than the Son, or you create man-made terms such as “office” to assist the obvious flaw in theology.

I’m only giving the correct interpretation in light of ALL Scripture.

Even if this “office” scenario is the truth, then how can anything exist that is greater than God “in office”?
Nothing is greater than God, not …one…thing

And Jesus did not say that GOD is greater than he, but the FATHER is greater than he.
They are both still the same God, so in the “office of God” (if you will), you’re right, no
higher office than that, but that’s not what the text was talking about, was it?

We have already discussed that the “I am” is still a created entity. God is beyond eternity and timelessness. If you think God is an eternal Being, you have described God…God is indescribable.

No, I don’t think we talked about the “I AM” being a created entity. “I AM” is
the Self-Existent One, all sufficient, eternal, Divine. That is God, with whom
Jesus identified himself. This is the SAME Being that spoke to Moses from
the Burning Bush who said,“Ehyeh Ašer Ehyeh.” If you look in the Gospel
when Jesus said of himself “I AM,” you will see the Jews getting angry be-
cause, as they said, he had claimed to be God, so they understood.

Because you introduce “offices” etc etc, none of which is found in the scriptures, even the word office only appears once in the Bible and it most definitely is not talking about the station of the Father and Son

Oh now you’re going into the “office isn’t in Scripture” road. If we take the entirety of the
Bible into account, we can’t say that the Father is greater than the Son in terms of Be–
ing because they are that same Being. We come to no other conclusion than “office.”

There are lot of things the Bible “indicates”…some conclude correctly on these indications, some incorrectly. I am so delighted to have the Lord validate to mankind the correct “indications” so that we may all be liberated from prejudice and ungodliness.

Removing the Deity of Jesus doesn’t do for or against prejudice or ungodliness, assum-
ing you’re going back to the “Baha’i Faith is better because it preaches PEACE! ”.

Please show me “any instance” where greater is the same as equal…

I never said that “greater” is the same as “equal”, but you are misapply-
ing the word “greater” to mean that the Father is God and Jesus is not
which is not what the Bible says.

I do not presume anything about the meaning of “greater”…you will notice, that I do not ever say what exactly it means, I just know that it means “greater”

Greater how? You’re use of that verse in reference to GOD in his entirety is above
Jesus as though he were a creation, so do not say you never gave your definition
of the word “greater.”

Christianity on the other hand has made grandiose assumptions and presumptions and come up with the term “office”

If this is from God and not man-made, then I propose Fred Phelps is the God also !!

Christianity just studies the Scriptures and comes to the correct conclusions on the
nature of God. Using words not explicitly in Scripture but define what the Scripture is
talking about is by no means a bad thing.
Example: We find that the Father is God, the Son is God, and The Holy Spirit is God,
they are distinct from each other, yet there’s only One God. For a while, Christianity
did not have a single word (other than “God”) to describe this. Then came the word
Trinity, which is a convenient, shorthand word that expresses what the Bible talks
about, has always talked about.

 

[Servant19]

No, non-Christians do not have peace with God. Only Jesus provides that peace when we are in Him.

Where in the world do you get this from? Plenty of people prior to Jesus are now in Heaven, including Gentiles and Israelites and those from before.

Fail; Jesus plainly claimed to be God, St. Thomas declared Him God, the Father declares Him God; The Jews of the day understood this perfectly, either that or you are claiming they are ignorant or not smart people.

God calls Jesus God: Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus’ reign is eternal, and He IS God. Anyone that denies that fails the test of a true teacher and prophet. We continue in Christ, we don’t switch. Ephesians 1: 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Sorry, no, that is where the Trinity functions. Jesus IS the Word/Wisdom of God manifest as God the Son. It is clear; the Word was God and with God. Jesus is Lord, he who denies that fails the test.

Wrong. The gospel message is solely about Christ, that is what Paul preached. If any come saying that Paul was wrong, and THEY have the good news, they are damned, even if it was an angel from Heaven, such as described in Islam.

He most certainly does. This is a claim of Godhood which he denies.

By his own words; He denies the Master that bought HIM.

Jesus’ reign is ongoing, and is not superseded by any other. It is not made ineffective, to claim such is to spit in His face and deny His sacrifice was totally necessary and sufficient for all time. It is finished, is the claim from the cross.

They Bahai) deny the Master that bought them. There is only one Master that bought them and proved it by raising from the dead bodily.

I am lost for words…

Thank you Kliska it’s been nice talking to you, but the conversation ends when Biblical words are completely twisted and changed in their obvious meaning…

God bless you

.

 

[Kliska]

I am lost for words…

Thank you Kliska it’s been nice talking to you, but the conversation ends when Biblical words are completely twisted and changed in their obvious meaning…

God bless you .

In agreement on that.

Prayers,
:curtsey: