What is the Gospel of St. Thomas?

[Ghosty]

BibleReader: So are you suggesting that the Gospel of Thomas was not a part of the Gnostic collections of work?

The fact is that it was found in a Gnostic collection, and while the passages can be read with orthodox interpretations in mind, we know from various contemporary accounts that they certainly did not believe in such orthodox ways. You say that the Gospel of Thomas is simply a teaching work, yet it’s only found in Gnostic collections. Who was using it to teach? The Gnostics certainly weren’t using the Gospel of Thomas to teach orthodoxy, and the fact that it was rejected by the Church when it began compiling the Bible is enough for all of us to dismiss it as, at most, extraneous fluff.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

All right, I made a mistake. I didn’t remember those lines from the other Gospels; I don’t have the Bible memorized. But that last one is not simply a “stupid statement of Peter”. And Jesus was not the author of anything, canonical nor apocryphal Gospels…I thought I was the one that needed to “learn my Bible”.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[vern_humphrey]

There are two “Gospels of Thomas.” One of them, an obvious forgery, is the Infancy Gospel (or Narrative) of Thomas. Some of this “gospel” is found to this day in Muslim tradition, so it must have been widespread at one time.

The document properly called the Gospel of Thomas is a bit different. We know Iranaeus rejected it (along with other false gospels) but it may have roots in Thomistic tradition. It has obviously been edited to fit the Gnostic philosophy:

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, “Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death.”

1. Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]”

Note the emphasis on “secret” in the opening, and “discovering the interpretation” in verse 1. These are Gnostic – the Gnostics claimed to have “secret” teachings and held that knowledge (gnosis) was the key to salvation.

No complete text of the Gospel of Thomas, which known in fragments and from comments by ancient writers, existed until the discovery of the Nag Hamadi Library in 1947. This “library” is clearly Gnostic, so both the editing and the locus of the only known text make it clear that the Gnostics used it for their purposes – just as the ancient writers say.

 

[BibleReader]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

All right, I made a mistake. I didn’t remember those lines from the other Gospels; I don’t have the Bible memorized. But that last one is not simply a “stupid statement of Peter”. And Jesus was not the author of anything, canonical nor apocryphal Gospels…I thought I was the one that needed to “learn my Bible”.

In Christ,
Rand

Believe me, Rand Al’Thor, when the gospel says, “Jesus said,” Jesus said. That makes Him the “author” of the quoted line.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

"Jesus said, ‘Peter, I am going out for a beer. Join me.’ " Does that make Jesus the author? Nope. I’m the author because I wrote that and it obviously isn’t something Jesus said. Just because a piece of writing says that it was a quote from Jesus doesn’t make it a real quote from Jesus. There’s a reason the Gospel of Thomas wasn’t included in the Bible. If this one should be included in the Bible, then what about the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, claiming the same authorship. That “gospel” contains lines that say “Jesus said…” Does that also make Jesus the author of that highly heretical “gospel” as well? In fact, it is impossible even for Thomas to have been the author because, as others stated above, it wasn’t written during his lifetime.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[BibleReader]

Ghosty:

BibleReader: So are you suggesting that the Gospel of Thomas was not a part of the Gnostic collections of work?

The fact is that it was found in a Gnostic collection, and while the passages can be read with orthodox interpretations in mind, we know from various contemporary accounts that they certainly did not believe in such orthodox ways. You say that the Gospel of Thomas is simply a teaching work, yet it’s only found in Gnostic collections. Who was using it to teach? The Gnostics certainly weren’t using the Gospel of Thomas to teach orthodoxy, and the fact that it was rejected by the Church when it began compiling the Bible is enough for all of us to dismiss it as, at most, extraneous fluff.

I agree that it might be extraneous fluff. An Early Church Bible teacher’s syllabus would be extraneous fluff.

Most of the so-called Gospel of Thomas is *obviously *solidly Roman Catholic. The difficult parts may be successfully interpreted as Bible typology.

 

[BibleReader]

vern humphrey quoted this from the Gospel of Thomas found at Nag Hammadi…

**These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded. **

**1. And he said, “Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death.” **

**2. Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]” **

He added:
vern humphrey:

There are two “Gospels of Thomas.” One of them, an obvious forgery, is the Infancy Gospel (or Narrative) of Thomas. Some of this “gospel” is found to this day in Muslim tradition, so it must have been widespread at one time.

The document properly called the Gospel of Thomas is a bit different. We know Iranaeus rejected it (along with other false gospels) but it may have roots in Thomistic tradition. It has obviously been edited to fit the Gnostic philosophy:

Note the emphasis on “secret” in the opening, and “discovering the interpretation” in verse 1. These are Gnostic – the Gnostics claimed to have “secret” teachings and held that knowledge (gnosis) was the key to salvation.

No complete text of the Gospel of Thomas, which known in fragments and from comments by ancient writers, existed until the discovery of the Nag Hamadi Library in 1947. This “library” is clearly Gnostic, so both the editing and the locus of the only known text make it clear that the Gnostics used it for their purposes – just as the ancient writers say.

I’m not “wowed” by the “secret” business. It *probably *depends on how the Coptic or Greek is translated. For example, can the term be correctly translated

OBSCURE?

That would be appropriate, because the work incorporates many obscure things which JESUS REALLY DID SAY.

The Early Church Bible teacher who wrote the document may in fact have been looking at Thomas’ version of the same verses in fact found in the four gospels.

Paragraph 2 is a rephrasing of things JESUS REALLY DID SAY typical for the so-called Gospel of Thomas. Here, “Ask and you will receive,” etc., mixed with Matthew 5:5, 20:16 and 24:47, and similar verses referring to how the lowly will be raised.

 

[vern_humphrey]

BibleReader:

I’m not “wowed” by the “secret” business. It *probably *depends on how the Coptic or Greek is translated. For example, can the term be correctly translated

The Gnostics used the same word in the same way. It means hidden or secret – and bolsters their claim that they had secret knowledge.

BibleReader:

Paragraph 2 is a rephrasing of things JESUS REALLY DID SAY typical for the so-called Gospel of Thomas. Here, “Ask and you will receive,” etc., mixed with Matthew 24:47 and similar verses referring to how the lowly will be raised.

Many believe the Gospel of Thomas contains genuine sayings of Christ. But they are clearly interlarded with things Christ did NOT say, in order to bolster the Gnostic position.

 

[BibleReader]

vern humphrey:

The Gnostics used the same word in the same way. It means hidden or secret – and bolsters their claim that they had secret knowledge.

Many believe the Gospel of Thomas contains genuine sayings of Christ. But they are clearly interlarded with things Christ did NOT say, in order to bolster the Gnostic position.

Re “The Gnostics used the same word in the same way. It means hidden or secret – and bolsters their claim that they had secret knowledge,” what is the transliteration of the word in the original codex, so that I may look it up. You should know this, if your knowledge is at the level of certainty you imply.

Re “But they are clearly interlarded with things Christ did NOT say, in order to bolster the Gnostic position,” please lay out the interlarded things Jesus did not say. Let’s see your proof. Give us, say, ten examples of interlarding things Jesus did not say. Please do not use the Man/Woman thing. I want to see the REST of your mountain of evidence. If it is “clearly” interlarded, then you will have TONS of interlarded things He did not say, right?

 

[Ghosty]

The Early Church Fathers are not extraneous fluff because they were members of the orthodox, Catholic faith, and recorded the teachings and practices of the Church in that time. The Gospel of Thomas is found only among Gnostic groups, non-Catholic heretics, and is found nowhere in Catholic collections or teachings.

Big, big difference.

 

[vern_humphrey]

BibleReader:

Re “The Gnostics used the same word in the same way. It means hidden or secret – and bolsters their claim that they had secret knowledge,” what is the transliteration of the word in the original codex, so that I may look it up. You should know this, if your knowledge is at the level of certainty you imply.

E q H P

Patterson and Meyer Translation
These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, “Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death.”

1. Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]”

Lambdin Translation
These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.

(1) And he said, “Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death.”

(2) Jesus said, “Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All.”

Patterson and Robinson Translation
These are the hidden words that the living Jesus spoke.
And Didymos Judas Thomas wrote them down.
(01) And he said: “Whoever finds the meaning of these words will not taste death.”

(02) Jesus says:
(1) “The one who seeks should not cease seeking until he finds.
(2) And when he finds, he will be dismayed.
(3) And when he is dismayed, he will be astonished.
(4) And he will be king over the All.”

BibleReader:

Re “But they are clearly interlarded with things Christ did NOT say, in order to bolster the Gnostic position,” please lay out the interlarded things Jesus did not say. Let’s see your proof. Give us, say, ten examples of interlarding things Jesus did not say. Please do not use the Man/Woman thing. I want to see the REST of your mountain of evidence. If it is “clearly” interlarded, then you will have TONS of interlarded things He did not say, right?

Are you a Catholic?

The Catholic Church has rejected the Gospel of Thomas – that’s the Magisterium speaking.

Read it for yourself. Then tell my you believe Jesus said things like “No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

 

[dumspirospero]

Amen Vern…I can always count on you…this poster has also aroused interest in me…something just isn’t right.
vern humphrey:

E q H P

Are you a Catholic?

The Catholic Church has rejected the Gospel of Thomas – that’s the Magisterium speaking.

Read it for yourself. Then tell my you believe Jesus said things like “No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

dumspirospero:

Amen Vern…I can always count on you…this poster has also aroused interest in me…something just isn’t right.

There is an old saying, “Those who study the pseudegraphia usually find what they look for.”

In other words, if they can’t twist the true inspired words to match their beliefs, they go looking elsewhere.

 

[sweetchuck]

BibleReader:

RELAX, relax, relax, sweetchuck. Read Posts 16 and 17. Look at how completely incorrect Rand Al’Thor’s criticisms were, in the case of those two paragraphs.

Like you, he apoplectically concluded that the one who says Jesus said the quoted lines was “Satanic,” “eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-villlllllllllllllllllllllllll, heh, heh, heh” (as the author of the suspect paragraphs tweaks the end of his snidely whiplash mustache).

But, as you can see, the author of the eeeeeeeeeeee-villllllllllllllllllll words WAS Jesus!

Calm down!

Dude, what is wrong with you? Looks like you’re the only one riled up here.

There is no other Catholic response to the fraudulent Gospel of Thomas than to understand why it is wrong, what motivated its wrongness and humbly affirm the Magisterial teaching (as Vern pointed out) in her condemnation of the text. Just because it has a grain of truth (copies of the words of the Lord taken from other scriptures) in it doesn’t mean it is right or that the Holy Spirit is its author. For example, Protestants will quote multiple biblical texts (grains of truth) to tell you why there is no purgatory (falsehood).

 

[BibleReader]

vern humphrey:

E q H P

I asked for a transliteration. Not the Greek original. The materials in my library work with the sound generated by the word, expressed with letters of the English alphabet.

 

[BibleReader]

Ghosty:

The Early Church Fathers are not extraneous fluff because they were members of the orthodox, Catholic faith, and recorded the teachings and practices of the Church in that time. The Gospel of Thomas is found only among Gnostic groups, non-Catholic heretics, and is found nowhere in Catholic collections or teachings.

Big, big difference.

Why not try READING it, instead of telling where where it was found.

 

[Ghosty]

Why not try READING it, instead of telling where where it was found.

I have read it. I even had it saved on my old computer for reference sake. I’m just saying that whatever is good in it is already present in Scripture, and that it was a part of Gnostic teaching use. It’s completely worthless because the only good things in it, which are often poorly translated from the Gospels themselves, are already in the Gospels. The bad things in it, whether due to biased translation or Gnostic insertion, are enough to make it dangerous.

The Gospel of Thomas is worth absolutely nothing in understanding the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles except insofar as it poorly mimics the works we already have in Canon.

 

[BibleReader]

Ghosty:

BibleReader: So are you suggesting that the Gospel of Thomas was not a part of the Gnostic collections of work?

The fact is that it was found in a Gnostic collection, and while the passages can be read with orthodox interpretations in mind, we know from various contemporary accounts that they certainly did not believe in such orthodox ways. You say that the Gospel of Thomas is simply a teaching work, yet it’s only found in Gnostic collections. Who was using it to teach? The Gnostics certainly weren’t using the Gospel of Thomas to teach orthodoxy, and the fact that it was rejected by the Church when it began compiling the Bible is enough for all of us to dismiss it as, at most, extraneous fluff.

If you read the Nag Hammadi library – and I read the parts of it not buried in lacunae – and Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, and Doresse’s Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics, you would also choke on the allegation that the Gospel of Thomas is “Gnostic.” It just doesn’t fit. There’s no talk of “pleromas,” and Sophia Prunikoses, and Ialdabaoths, and emanations, and all of the other Gnostic nonsense.

BUT, most of the quotations of Jesus are off-hand rewordings of things which Jesus in fact said.

How it ended-up in the Nag Hammadi library, we’ll probably never know.

 

[Ghosty]

It’s not that the Gospel of Thomas is found in Nag Hammadi that troubles me, it’s that it’s ONLY found there. It’s only found in Gnostic collections. No orthodox Catholics ever used it. What’s more, we have orthodox collections, the Gospels, which much more clearly explain what was said and what was meant, rather than a bunch of out of context quotes from Jesus and the Apostles.

I’m not saying the Gospel of Thomas is itself Gnostic, I’m saying that it only served Gnostic purposes. By stripping the teachings of Jesus down to a book of quotes, and using it alongside Gnostic scriptures, it served to validate the Gnostic teachings by associating them with a respected man. The fact that it only exists in Gnostic collections is very telling, I think, and indicates to some degree the REASON it’s so stripped down in the first place.

 

[BibleReader]

sweetchuck:

Dude, what is wrong with you? Looks like you’re the only one riled up here.

There is no other Catholic response to the fraudulent Gospel of Thomas than to understand why it is wrong, what motivated its wrongness and humbly affirm the Magisterial teaching (as Vern pointed out) in her condemnation of the text. Just because it has a grain of truth (copies of the words of the Lord taken from other scriptures) in it doesn’t mean it is right or that the Holy Spirit is its author. For example, Protestants will quote multiple biblical texts (grains of truth) to tell you why there is no purgatory (falsehood).

Re “Dude, what is wrong with you? Looks like you’re the only one riled up here,” I’m having fun, friend. :yup:

Re "There is no other Catholic response to the fraudulent Gospel of Thomas than to understand why it is wrong, what motivated its wrongness and humbly affirm the Magisterial teaching (as Vern pointed out) in her condemnation of the text. Just because it has a grain of truth (copies of the words of the Lord taken from other scriptures) in it doesn’t mean it is right or that the Holy Spirit is its author. For example, Protestants will quote multiple biblical texts (grains of truth) to tell you why there is no purgatory (falsehood)," you’re…you’re…you’re such a mighty, loyal Catholic!!!

Prove your case. Piece by piece.