What is the Gospel?

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2nd_Adam said:
Romans must be studied in the light of the rest of Scripture. And Scripture must be studied in the light of the Apostle’s teaching as recorded in Sacred Scripture. However, without the work of the Spirit of God in regeneration, the gospel cannot be understood in an effectual way. According to Jesus, you must be born from above to even see the kingdom of God. 😉
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Riiight. The born-again cognoscenti-a rather elite group-who somehow don’t always agree with each other. Or I guess the definition of a regenerate person could be: “Anyone who agrees with me”.

OK, I’m sure you’d agree there’s still much God can teach you and that you must do your part to continue to grow in the knowledge of Him so I’ll only say that if you keep seeking, you’ll end up Catholic-even if it means kicking and screaming all the way. Otherwise you’ll have to wait until the next life to become one-which may have to do instead.
 
tweetymom said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson
Catholics are encouraged to read scripture on their own; however, there is no assurance that the individual will be protected from error by the Holy Spirit in the same manner that the Church is.
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Why is that? I really have to disagree
Hi Tweety, Individuals when reading scripture indeed must be very careful in interpreting.
The evil spirit roams around with his big bag of tricks ready ponce.
On the other hand, the Body of Christ the Church with Christ as the head will lead us into all truth and the gates of hell will not prevail against her. :):thumbsup:Carlan
 
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Romans must be studied in the light of the rest of Scripture. And Scripture must be studied in the light of the Apostle’s teaching as recorded in Sacred Scripture. However, without the work of the Spirit of God in regeneration, the gospel cannot be understood in an effectual way. According to Jesus, you must be born from above to even see the kingdom of God.
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fhansen said:
Riiight. The born-again cognoscenti-a rather elite group-who somehow don’t always agree with each other. Or I guess the definition of a regenerate person could be: “Anyone who agrees with me”.

OK, I’m sure you’d agree there’s still much God can teach you and that you must do your part to continue to grow in the knowledge of Him so I’ll only say that if you keep seeking, you’ll end up Catholic-even if it means kicking and screaming all the way. Otherwise you’ll have to wait until the next life to become one-which may have to do instead.
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I think you are fighting the wrong person. Maybe you should wrestle with the Scriptures about being born again. These are the words of Jesus and not mine.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. - John 3
 
Carlan said:
Why is that? I really have to disagree
Hi Tweety, Individuals when reading scripture indeed must be very careful in interpreting.
The evil spirit roams around with his big bag of tricks ready ponce.
On the other hand, the Body of Christ the Church with Christ as the head will lead us into all truth and the gates of hell will not prevail against her. :):thumbsup:Carlan
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Doesn’t your view work against you for motivation to read the Scriptures? It seems some Catholics are afraid to read the Scriptures because the evils spirits will ponce on them while reading the Word of God. Of even worst, if you read too much Sacred Scripture, you will transform into a Protestant. 😉
 
2nd_Adam said:
I think you are fighting the wrong person. Maybe you should wrestle with the Scriptures about being born again. These are the words of Jesus and not mine.
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No Catholic would disagree with that. 🤷 The argument is against your opinion of your own unique regenerated status and the understanding of Scripture it gives you.
 
fhansen said:
No Catholic would disagree with that. 🤷 The argument is against your opinion of your own unique regenerated status and the understanding of Scripture it gives you.
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What is my view on being born again, and how is it different than what Jesus revealed?

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. - John 3
 
2nd_Adam said:
What is my view on being born again, and how is it different than what Jesus revealed?

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. - John 3
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My point was that many people claim to be born again but still disagree on the meaning of Scripture so that, whatever their experience may be, it does not assure one that “the gospel will be understood in an effectual way”.
 
fhansen said:
My point was that many people claim to be born again but still disagree on the meaning of Scripture so that, whatever their experience may be, it does not assure one that “the gospel will be understood in an effectual way”.
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Thanks for trying… 👍

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
 
2nd_Adam said:
Thanks for trying… 👍

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
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OK, would you mind, then, explaining to me your understanding of being born again? Maybe I’ve been in and around too much of a certain stripe which differs from you. I’m willing to try to understand where you’re coming from on it.
 
2nd_Adam said:
What is your interpertation of Romans 2 since it has not been dogmatically defined by the Magestrium for you?
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2nd – not being dogmatically defined does not equal untrue, it also does not mean that there is no official teaching. You need to understand these concepts before you try to use them in your arguments, they only make you sound uninformed.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Doesn’t your view work against you for motivation to read the Scriptures? It seems some Catholics are afraid to read the Scriptures because the evils spirits will ponce on them while reading the Word of God. Of even worst, if you read too much Sacred Scripture, you will transform into a Protestant. 😉
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2nd your anti Catholicim is showing.:rolleyes:Carlan
 
2nd_Adam said:
Why would you say that your personal interpertation of Romans 2:6-11 is correct since it has not been dogmatically defined by the Magestrium for you?
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Why do you, a Bible Christian, suggest that I must wait for the Magisterium to define this verse dogmatically?

Aren’t ALL Christians led by the Spirit into ALL truth? Or are only non-Catholic Christians so privileged?
I believe you took it out of proper context from the gospel revealed in the Epsitles of Romans. I believe it is an incorrect conclusion, considering Romans chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4… and actually the rest of Romans… and the rest of Scripture… and the gospel of God’s grace. It is this kind of view which leads many Protestants to think that Catholic Christians are trying to earn their salvation by their personal good works. By your posting, it appears you are preaching a gospel of works, and not of grace.
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Oh, no, brother.

I have read Romans many times along with the rest of the scriptures as you recommend. I’m not as young as I look. 😛

Since YOU know that the Catholic Church condemned salvation by works at Trent, you know that I don’t believe that, right?

You know that the Church teaches justification by grace, right?

So, that is not what I’m saying. However, Paul teaches us that we must be baptized:

Romans 6:3-4
3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Paul teaches that after baptism, we must be obedient to Christ which leads to righteousness:

Romans 6:16
16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

So, the works that God intends for us to do are done IN CHRIST - and not in our own strength.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, and not by faith alone (James 2:24); we must do the works that God prepared for us.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Doesn’t your view work against you for motivation to read the Scriptures? It seems some Catholics are afraid to read the Scriptures because the evils spirits will ponce on them while reading the Word of God. Of even worst, if you read too much Sacred Scripture, you will transform into a Protestant. 😉
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How does that work for those who read the scriptures, see Catholic doctrines such as confession to priests and the Eucharist, and come into the Church?

Or is this just a one-way street?

I guess you’re saying that no one could ever actually read the Bible and still be a Catholic?

That would probably come as a surprise to the Catholic councils that defined the canon beginning in the fourth century.
 
Tweety-

Please try to keep up.

I wrote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Catholics are encouraged to read scripture on their own; however, there is no assurance that the individual will be protected from error by the Holy Spirit in the same manner that the Church is.
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And you responded:
Why is that? I really have to disagree.
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To which I asked:
Are you infallible?
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And you answered:
NO:thumbsup: Are you:eek:
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To which I will reply:

Of course not. Neither one of us are infallible individually. Only the Church is completely protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit. You and I can and do fall into error all the time.

Consequently, why did you say, “I really have to disagree” concerning this?

It seems that you have agreed with my statement when you admitted that we are not personally infallible. What are you disagreeing with?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Tweety-

Please try to keep up.

I wrote:

And you responded:

To which I asked:

And you answered:

To which I will reply:

Of course not. Neither one of us are infallible individually. Only the Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. You and I can and do fall into error all the time.

Consequently, why did you say, “I really have to disagree” concerning this?

It seems that you have agreed with my statement when you admitted that we are not personally infallible. What are you disagreeing with?
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I diagree with you on the subject that I personally am not protected by the Holy Spirit. If I trust in the Holy Spirit as I read the Bible I am protected!

Sorry I can’t keep up with you, maybe there is a reason:shrug:
 
Carlan said:
2nd your anti Catholicim is showing.:rolleyes:Carlan
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I am not anti-Catholic, I am pro-catholic! ECT 1, ECT II, and a new ECT III are good things! 👍

seekgod.ca/ect2.htm

The ECT Statement taken from Christianity Today, December 8, 1997, pp. 35-77

EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS TOGETHER: THE GIFT OF SALVATION

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17)

We give thanks to God that in recent years many Evangelicals and Catholics, ourselves among them, have been able to express a common faith in Christ and so to acknowledge one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. We confess together one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; we confess Jesus Christ the Incarnate Son of God; we affirm the binding authority of Holy Scripture, God’s inspired Word; and we acknowledge the Apostles’ and Nicene creeds as faithful witnesses to that Word.

The effectiveness of our witness for Christ depends upon the work of the Holy Spirit, who calls and empowers us to confess together the meaning of the salvation promised and accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. Through prayer and study of Holy Scripture, and aided by the Church’s reflection on the sacred text from earliest times, we have found that, notwithstanding some persistent and serious differences, we can together bear witness to the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. To this saving gift we now testify, speaking not for, but from and to, our several communities… (click link above to continue)
 
Randy_Carson said:
How does that work for those who read the scriptures, see Catholic doctrines such as confession to priests and the Eucharist, and come into the Church?

Or is this just a one-way street?

I guess you’re saying that no one could ever actually read the Bible and still be a Catholic?

That would probably come as a surprise to the Catholic councils that defined the canon beginning in the fourth century.
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Nope, I never said those things above. One of my favorite threads on this site was “Catholics need to read their Bibles” based on a Catholic article posted on Catholic Answers. The thread was closed due to reaching the maximum amount of posts allowed on a thread. Do you think we should create a new thread called “Catholics need to read their Bibles II”?
 
tweetymom said:
I diagree with you on the subject that I personally am not protected by the Holy Spirit. If I trust in the Holy Spirit as I read the Bible I am protected!
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Protected how, Tweety?

You have said that you are not infallible; thus, it is entirely possible for you to be completely wrong about your interpretation of a scripture passage or your understanding of a doctrine of the Church.

(Me, too, btw.)

You’re claiming to be protected by the Holy Spirit, but you also admit that you are not infallible. Consequently, the Holy Spirit is NOT preventing you from falling into error, is He?

So, while you disagree, you don’t seem to have a basis for your disagreement with my original statement.
Sorry I can’t keep up with you, maybe there is a reason.
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Yes, there is.

Charity prevents me from saying more. 😉
 
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