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zerinus
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Mormonism is true, and I happen to know it.
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Rescued_by_mary
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Do you love Mary?
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Randy_Carson
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Based on your “testimony”? The “burning in your bosom”?
Kinda subjective, don’t you think? :yup:
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2nd_Adam
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:slapfight::nunchuk::nunchuk: - Keep pounding sense into Zee
When you need a break… I will pound him with thee TULIP!
:flowers::flowers::flowers:
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zerinus
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Of course I love Mary, the blessed mother of Jesus. Why wouldn’t I?
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zerinus
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Based on the witness of the Holy Spirit.
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Randy_Carson
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I see.
Is this the same Holy Spirit who Jesus promised to send to the Church that He promised to build upon Peter the Rock thus making the Great Apostasy a great figment of Joseph Smith’s imagination?
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jmcrae
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2nd_Adam
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jmcrae
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Um - yeah, actually I think Protestants agree with Mormons on that one - that Christ’s promises to St. Peter failed, the Catholic Church went off the rails, and so therefore it was necessary to start up a new religion.with a Protestant interpertation.
What do I know, though?
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zerinus
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It is the same Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to his disciples, that would lead them to “all truth”: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …” (John 16:13). It is the same Holy Spirit that revealed to Paul that there must be a “falling away” first: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, …” (2 Thessalonians 2:3). Likewise, it is the same Holy Spirit that revealed to Amos the OT prophet of the famine in the land, the famine of hearing the word of the Lord: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord” (Amos 8:11).
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Philthy
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Actually, 2nd Adam, you have some unfinished work of your own to take care of! Why not finish off some of the excellent progress we had made by explaining some of the details regarding your version of the Gospel?? Here’s the post that we left off on:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5934523&postcount=349
It’s relatively brief…
Zee has offered his version of the Gospel. No offense to him, but Mormonism is not part of mainstream Christianity and the OP has indicated that this thread was meant for mainstream Christianity: Catholics, Protestants and Eastern Orthodox.
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Philthy
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Hi Zerinus:
I read what you claimed was a presentation of the Mormon Gospel. Instead, it appears to be a montage of verses canonized by the Catholic Church yet attributed to another source.
Anyone who wishes to simply read through the alleged presentation of the Gospel will see that it is derived from the Gospels of Matt, Mark Luke and John in its entirety, adding almost nothing new. This canonization by the CC of those Gospels occurred over 1500 years prior to the appearance of Mormonism. What is the point of presenting this as the “Mormon Gospel” based upon rehashed versions of the Catholic Gospels? I dont quite get it. Do you think you are presenting a Gospel any different than has been offered by others so far? Oh, I forgot - you didnt bother to read the thread so you dont realize that you havent actually offered anything new - except that you attribute the origin of your Gospel to sources that are clearly not primary to anyone who is familiar with the NT. I can only say good luck with that.
On a practical level, what you linked us to is not actually a concise articulation of the Gospel despite acknowledging that the question, “What is the Gospel?” is one that Mormons need to answer. Unless, of course, you believe that the Gospel is that Christ “came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.” That certainly leaves a lot of unanswered questions…
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zerinus
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If you were intending to provide a link, there was none. I don’t know basically what you are talking about.
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Philthy
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Go back - I was editing as you posted!
Again - articulate what the Mormon Gospel is and what it introduces that was not revealed by the Apostles and their successors through the Scriptures canonized by the Catholic Church 1500 years prior to the origin of Mormonism. If you cant do that - quickly and succinctly - very few on this forum will be interested to hear what you have to say.
Peace be with you!
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zerinus
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There is still no link. Is that some kind of a joke or what?
The Mormon gospel is articulated in those scriptural passages I had posted in my Blog. No need to add anything to it. It is the same as what is taught in the Bible. If you think it isn’t, it is up to you to tell us why, not for me to explain why not?
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zerinus
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Okay, I had a look at your link, and I cannot for the life of me tell what relevance that has with what I was saying, or what you were asking.
The Mormon gospel is articulated in those scriptural passages I had posted in my Blog. No need to add anything to it. It is the same as what is taught in the Bible. If you think it isn’t, it is up to you to tell us why, not for me to explain why not?
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Randy_Carson
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Jesus promised the Spirit to the Apostles who were in the room with him. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and company were not there nor do they have Apostolic Succession from the legitimate heirs of the Apostles, the Bishops appointed by the Apostles.
The prophet Amos was referring to a time when there were no OT prophets for an extended period in Israel’s past. The passage from 2 Thessalonians refers to a “falling away” but not to a total apostasy. At best, you could get a partial apostasy out of it, I suppose, but a complete and total apostasy (as is necessary in order for Mormonism to replace the Catholic Church) is not possible because of the promises of Christ.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints claims to be the true, restored Church established by God after all other Christian churches had fallen into total apostasy. In a 1992 article for This Rock magazine, author Patrick Madrid provided a compelling argument that this Mormon claim is the lynchpin of LDS theology:
“The late Bruce McConkie, a Mormon apostle and, during his life, perhaps Mormonism’s leading theologian, explained the concept of the Great Apostasy this way: “This universal apostasy began in the days of the ancient apostles themselves; and it was known to and foretold by them. . . . With the loss of the Gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages. Apostasy was universal. . . . [T]his darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored Gospel.”(Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966 ed.), 43-44.
“Mormonism’s claim to be the “restored” church hangs upon there having been a complete apostasy. The late James E. Talmadge, prolific Mormon writer and member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote:
‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims the restoration of the Gospel, and re-establishment of the Church as of old, in this, the dispensation of the fullness of times. Such restoration and re-establishment, with the modern bestowal of the holy priesthood, would be unnecessary and indeed impossible had the Church of Christ continued among men with unbroken succession of priesthood and power, since the meridian of time [the time of Christ].
‘The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only. The significance and importance of the great apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims’(James E. Talmadge, The Great Apostasy (Salt Lake City: Deseret Books, 1968 ed.), iii. For a discussion of apostolic succession see Warren H. Carroll, The Founding of Christendom and The Building of Christendom (Front Royal: Christendom College Press, 1985, 1987).) (emphasis added).
“TALMADGE is correct in evaluating the consequences, of course: if no apostasy, no restoration, and if no restoration, no Mormonism.”
The issue to be examined, therefore, is whether total apostasy of the Christian Church was possible. The following verses suggest that apostasy was not possible, and questions are submitted to our Mormon friends.
(cont.)
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Randy_Carson
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Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church fell into total apostasy, does this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?
Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Q: If the Church fell into totally apostasy for nearly 1700 years, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?
John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
Q: If the Church fell into apostasy, did Jesus not give the Counselor or did the Counselor simply fail to remain with the Church “forever”?
John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Q: If the Church fell into total apostasy, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?
John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?
Now, consider the following three verses:
1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.
Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?
In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into total apostasy? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
Madrid also reported that “in a written exchange (*This Rock, *(July 1991), 18.), Mormon apologist Robert Starling, attempting to prove the divine origin of the Mormon Church, cited the Rabbi Gamaliel’s prediction regarding the New Testament Church: "f this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God" (Acts 5:38-39). Starling unwittingly undercut his own claim of a great apostasy. Gamaliel was right. The Church Jesus built could not be destroyed.”
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church fell into total apostasy, does this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?
Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Q: If the Church fell into totally apostasy for nearly 1700 years, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?
John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
Q: If the Church fell into apostasy, did Jesus not give the Counselor or did the Counselor simply fail to remain with the Church “forever”?
John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Q: If the Church fell into total apostasy, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?
John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?
Now, consider the following three verses:
1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.
Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?
In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into total apostasy? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
Madrid also reported that “in a written exchange (*This Rock, *(July 1991), 18.), Mormon apologist Robert Starling, attempting to prove the divine origin of the Mormon Church, cited the Rabbi Gamaliel’s prediction regarding the New Testament Church: "f this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God" (Acts 5:38-39). Starling unwittingly undercut his own claim of a great apostasy. Gamaliel was right. The Church Jesus built could not be destroyed.”
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Randy_Carson
Guest
This text speaks of an apostasy in ancient Israel, not after the death of the last apostle in New Testament times. But even this apostasy was not total. In the very next chapter (9:8-10), Amos makes this very clear: "‘Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,’ says the Lord. 'For lo, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the ground. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, ‘Evil shall not overtake or meet us.’
There were many incidents in Old Testament salvation history when priests and prophets were corrupt (Lam. 4:13, Ezek. 22:22-26, Zeph. 1:4, Mic. 3:5), prophets had no vision from the Lord, prophesied falsely (Lam. 2:14, Jer. 23:26-31), or at times, there were no prophets at all (Psalm 74:9). Apostasies were frequent in the Old Testament, but never total. There was always a faithful remnant.
In the midst of good times and bad, there was one constant in all of Old Covenant salvation history: the existence of the High Priesthood and the Levitical Priesthood as they are detailed in Exodus 28 and Deuteronomy 17. God established and gave authority to them to guide the children of Israel. The High Priest, or those to whom the High Priest delegated authority, had the power to deliver the oracle of God to His people.
Deuteronomy 17:8-12 is an example of this historical fact: “If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another any case. . . which is too difficult for you, then you shall. . . go up to. . . the Levitical priests, and to the judge who is in office in those days, you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision. Then you shall do according to what they declare. . . you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you. . . The man who acts presumptuously, by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge. . . shall die.”
According to Exodus 28:30, the High Priest had what was called the “Urim and the Thummim” on the breastplate of his vestments whereby he would bear the sins of the people of Israel when he went before the Lord in the temple. Through this gift of God, the High Priest would also hear the Word of God and proclaim divine oracles from God.
Even during such a corrupt time as the time of the Judges, we see this gift in operation in Israel. This was a time when “every man did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6). Yet, even then, this gift of “the Urim and the Thummim” was alive and well. And when the Israelites consulted God through “Phineas the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron,” who was High Priest at the time (cf. Judges 20:18-28), they received the oracle of God through him. They may not have always consulted the Lord or obeyed Him, but He was always there for them.
In fact, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself acknowledges the existence of this hierarchy and its authority in His time. In Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus says to his disciples, “The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” Even the Apostles must obey the scribes and Pharisees who speak in an official capacity with delegated authority from the High Priest. Note: they must do so even if the legitimate authority may be personally corrupt (see also John 11:47-52).
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