What is the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-10

[ONeal]

When this passage says that salvation is by grace, through faith and not by works, what does “not by works” mean?

ONeal

 

[itsjustdave1988]

If you compare this to the parallel passages in Scripture, he is speaking of “works of the Torah.”

He is not speaking against the efficacy of “good works”, which is God working in man.

I recommend *Not by Faith Alone *by Robert Sungenis. It is a very comprehensive presentation of the Scriptural passages related to this question.

 

[Mystophilus]

ONeal:

When this passage says that salvation is by grace, through faith and not by works, what does “not by works” mean?

• [8] têi gar chariti este sesôsmenoi dia pisteôs: kai touto ouk ex humôn, [9] theou to dôron: ouk ex ergôn, hina mê tis kauchêsêtai*

(If you follow the link, and click on any word, a popup will show you the form. If you click on “LSJ” in the popup it will show you all the ways in which that word was used from the time of Homer until the end of the NT period.)

“(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith: and this not from you, (9) the gift of God: not from deeds, thus cannot anyone speak loudly (i.e., boast)”

Salvation is gifted by God, not engineered by us. We have no right to boast that we have ‘earned’ our way into Heaven.

 

[MariaG]

ONeal:

When this passage says that salvation is by grace, through faith and not by works, what does “not by works” mean?

ONeal

Exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. That we can do nothing to earn our salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Della]

MariaG:

Exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. That we can do nothing to earn our salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God.

God Bless,
Maria

Yes indeed! Paul goes on to tell us about good works a little farther down in Ephesians 2 to verse 10: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared for beforehand, that we should walk in them.” This clearly tells us that only through the grace of God, following Paul’s thought from verses 8-9, can we do the good works which God has prepared for us to do. This is, and always has been, the teaching of the Church, from one of her Apostles.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I was just reading 2 Cor 5:16-6:2. It says that we are a new creation, and as such we are to become ambassadors of Christ. God is appealing THROUGH us to the world. We do this not simply by intellectual exercise, but by becoming the righteousness of God in Him. That is the ergon (deed or work) that we must do, not by our own natural talents, but by accepting the supernatural gifts of God in our life and living in accord with that gift.

That ergon (deed or work) is like every gift from God given to us through Christ Jesus. It has a salvific purpose. Not living in accord with that gift is contrary to that slavific purpose.

St. John describes belief as including obedience.

John 1:12 “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

The Greek used by St. John for “does not obey” is apeiqwn (“apeitheo”), which means “not believing” but also means “disobey”

According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Kittel, et. al, (abridged edition):

***apeitheo. ***This word means “to be disobedient” and is a significant term in the LXX for disobedience to God. In the NT it is used of the wilderness generation in Heb 3:18, that of the flood in 1 Pet. 3:20, all sinners in Rom. 2:8, and Gentiles in Heb 11:13; Rom. 11:30. “To believe” is the opposite in Acts 14:1-2, and unbelief is parallel.

So you can see that “to believe” so as to attain eternal life includes obedience. That’s our deed and it is by our loving faithfulness in fulfilling the deeds which God has commanded that we become the righteousness of God in Him. Not by our own human endeavors (natural works), but by God working in us (supernatural works), making us His ambassadors for Christ.

to be continued…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued…

A well-known Protestant theologian put it this way…

“Have I that faith which leads me to obey my God?—for obedience, if it be of the kind we are speaking of, is faith in action—faith walking with God” (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon called “Obedience of Faith,” August 21, 1890)

So, our supernatural deeds or works which we believe lead to eternal life are not mere human achievement, but what C.H. Spurgeon calls “faith in action.”

C.H. Spurgeon continues…

If our faith…lacks the fruit of obedience, it will leave us among the “dogs” who are “'without.” The ***faith that makes us obey is alone the faith which marks the children of God. ***It is better to have the faith that obeys than the faith which moves mountains. … If thou believest in the living God unto eternal life, thou wilt be quick to do thy Lord’s bidding, even as a maid hearkens to her mistress. Thou wilt not be as the horse, which needs whip and spur; thy love will do more for thee than compulsion could do for slaves. Thou wilt have wings to thy heels to hasten thee along the way of obedience. … He would have us obey him with the heart, and that will lead us, not merely to regard a few pleasing commands, but to have respect unto all his will. … Alas! dear friends, we have so much talk, and so little obedience! The religion of mere brain and jaw does not amount to much. We want the religion of hands and feet. (ibid.)

From my studies and experience, Catholicism is truly a religion of hands and feet!!

Finally, from C.H. Spurgeon…

Those who practice the obedience of faith look for the reward hereafter, and set the greatest store by it… They know the words, “No cross, no crown;” and they recognise the truth that, if there is no obedience here, there will be no reward hereafter…

The obedience which faith produces must be continuous… Providence is God’s business, obedience is ours. What comes out of our life’s course must remain with the Lord; to obey is our sole concern. We can win “Well done, good and faithful servant”: to be a successful servant is not in our power, and we shall not be held responsible for it. Our greatest risk is over when we obey. God makes faith and obedience the way of safety…Obedience may appear difficult, and it may bring with it sacrifice; but, after all, it is the nearest and the best road…He who through the Holy Spirit, is always believingly obedient, has chosen the good part.

… ***this is a kind of life which will bring communion with God…If we transgress against him, we shall soon be in trouble; but a holy walk—the walk described by my text as faith working obedience—is heaven beneath the stars. God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. Obedience is heaven in us, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life—nay, it is eternal life revealing itself. ***(ibid.)

"The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey." Sounds Catholic!!

 

[Della]

I also concur with IJJ, that oftentimes Protestants do what the Catholic Church teaches, but they don’t call what they do the same name as Catholics, so they think that Catholics aren’t doing what they are. I remember having this discussion with an Assemblies of God pastor and missionary. I told him too that what Catholics call good works he would think of as “walking in Christ” and living out the faith. He’s now a Catholic.

 

[ONeal]

What is the difference between the efficacy of “Works of the Torah” (which would include the decalogue, the golden rule, and every other kind of work there is) and “good works?”

ONeal

 

[itsjustdave1988]

ONeal:

What is the difference between the efficacy of “Works of the Torah” (which would include the decalogue, the golden rule, and every other kind of work there is) and “good works?”

In Rom 3:28, St. Paul teaches that “man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Torah.” What does he mean? Consider his audience. He is speaking to Roman Christians. He is saying that it is not necessary to become Jewish to become justified. He is emphasizing instead that one must believe in Jesus Christ to be justified. And “believe” is to be understood in the same sense that St. John understood the word “believe” to include faithful obedience.

That’s exactly why St. Paul opens and closes his Letter to the Roman’s by emphasizing the “obedience of faith.” (Rom 1:5; 16:26). Justifying Faith is not simply an intellectual exercise. Faith without love is nothing, according to St. Paul (1 Cor 13:2). So, justifying faith cannot be without love, it cannot be literally “faith alone.” Because faith alone, implies faith without repentence, faith without love, faith without obedience, faith without anything. Faith without anything is the faith of demons, as “***Even the demons ***believe” (James 2:19).We can be certain from all of St. Paul’s writings that justifying faith cannot mean faith without love and obedience.

The situation in the first century was that some Jews were thinking that they could oblige God by their works alone. They were doing all they needed to do. Jesus came along and said, no. It is good that you are following all the commandments. Now, sell all that you own and follow me. This was much more difficult than simply fulfilling the “works of the Torah.” Some implied that the “works of the Torah” alone were enough. Little did they know that doing works alone was not sufficient for salvation.

St. Paul was refuting “works alone.” One ought not to misunderstand from this that St. Paul was preaching “faith alone.” He wasn’t. He never says that, despite Martin Luther adding the word “alone” to Rom 3:28 in his translation of the Bible. The Greek manuscripts never say “faith alone” anywhere except James 2:24. “Faith alone” is no better than “works alone,” as faith without a love and obedience to God is nothing. Instead, both St. Paul and St. James were teaching neither “works alone” nor “faith alone” but justification by faithful and loving works. Justifying faith is faith active along with works, and faith completed by works (cf. James 2:22). That is what St. James means when he teaches that, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

Faith is not a passive thing, but must have arms and feet!! It must be ACTIVE along with supernatural work of Christ in us, and COMPLETED by the supernatural work of Christ in us to be a justifying faith. Simply following the Torah is not enough. We must follow Jesus.

 

[MariaG]

Della:

I also concur with IJJ, that oftentimes Protestants do what the Catholic Church teaches, but they don’t call what they do the same name as Catholics, so they think that Catholics aren’t doing what they are. I remember having this discussion with an Assemblies of God pastor and missionary. I told him too that what Catholics call good works he would think of as “walking in Christ” and living out the faith. He’s now a Catholic.

Yeah, or “You need to do more than talk the talk. You also need to walk the walk.” No one thinks that means you can earn your way to heaven but when Catholics start talking about good works…

 

[ONeal]

Obviously, I do not believe “apart from works of law” really means: you don’t have to become a Jew. That really makes no sense. Robert Sungenis agrees with me on this issue. He says your understanding of this is a distortion - and I agree. Obviously, I disagree with him about what Paul taught about justification, but I seriously think it’s time for Catholic apologists to permanently put the “all that means is you don’t have to become a Jew to be justified” argument to bed:

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/works1.htm

How would you respond to Sungenis on this, Dave?

ONeal

 

[Della]

ONeal:

Obviously, I do not believe “apart from works of law” really means: you don’t have to become a Jew. That really makes no sense. Robert Sungenis agrees with me on this issue. He says your understanding of this is a distortion - and I agree. Obviously, I disagree with him about what Paul taught about justification, but I seriously think it’s time for Catholic apologists to permanently put the “all that means is you don’t have to become a Jew to be justified” argument to bed:

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/works1.htm

How would you respond to Sungenis on this, Dave?

ONeal

But the idea of not having to become a Jew wasn’t the thrust of Paul’s concern here. He wanted to convey that faith and good works are the working of grace in our lives so no one can take credit for what he accomplishes. Obviously, we don’t have to follow the Levitical laws, but we still have to keep the Ten Commandments because they aren’t merely the tradition of the Jews but are the basic precepts of natural law, which all men are to obey. Paul is telling us Christ’s law of love and the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives by grace are universal concepts not merely those of one people or of one time in history.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

ONeal:

Obviously, I do not believe “apart from works of law” really means: you don’t have to become a Jew. That really makes no sense.

That’s only part of what it means.

He says your understanding of this is a distortion - and I agree.

I believe your understanding of my understanding is a distortion. How about you let me be the expert in my understanding, and I’ll let you be the expert in your understanding, hmmmm?

Obviously, I disagree with him about what Paul taught about justification

That’s not obvious at all since you haven’t even bothered to share your thesis with us.

I seriously think it’s time for Catholic apologists to permanently put the “all that means is you don’t have to become a Jew to be justified” argument to bed

I agree. And since I never asserted that “all that means is you don’t have to become a Jew to be justified” then you appear to be building a strawman which I don’t find compelling.

On the contrary, I said that “He is saying that it is not necessary to become Jewish to become justified.” However, I also said “He is emphasizing instead that one must believe in Jesus Christ to be justified. And “believe” is to be understood in the same sense that St. John understood the word “believe” to include faithful obedience.”

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/works1.htm

How would you respond to Sungenis on this, Dave?

I say Amen!!

Mr. Sungenis states:

Various Catholic apologists today, when teaching on the meaning of the “works of the law,” will often explain it as referring to the ceremonial law of Israel, to the exclusion, or the virtual exclusion, of the remaining law in Israel.

I agree. I’m not among those that believe “works of the law” is limited to only the ceremonial law of Israel. That’s not what I stated above. Ceremonial law is certainly part of the “works of the Torah,” but there’s much more to being Jewish, and more to believing in Jesus Christ.

The OT Divine Law is comprised of civil law, ceremonial law, and Divine moral precepts. The Catholic Church insists that the Old Law has passed away and that Christians are bound by the New Law of Christ. The New Law of Christ is not bound to the OT civil or the ceremonial law, nor is it bound to the Jewish interpretation of the Divine moral precepts, but is bound to the authentic Christian interpretation of the moral precepts of Divine Law.

Yet, what I said above about the necessity of “obedience of faith” is not merely obedience to the moral precepts of Divine law, or any law for that matter, as if to obligate God. Eternal life is a gratuitous gift from God. Nothing we do can *earn eternal life. Nothing. *

Instead, what I emphazed was the same thing emphasized by Protestant scholar C.H. Spurgeon in his sermon about the “obedience of faith.” Justifying faith must be a faith in action!!

In contrast to authentic “obedience of faith,” St. Paul states, “To the one working, the wage is not reckoned according to grace but according to obligation” (Rom 4:4). This implies two ways of “working.” One is “working according to grace” aka supernatural works. The other is “working according to obligation,” aka natural works. Jews and Gentiles alike error when they work according to obligation thinking that such works are salvific. This applies to all aspects of OT law, not merely ceremonial, or civil, but even to the Divine moral aspects. Even if the natural works are in strict obedience to Divine moral precepts, if they are indeed accomplished naturally (not according to supernatural grace), then they have no efficacy toward supernatural life. Yet, I reject the Protestant polemic that says that St. Paul condemns ALL work as having any part in Justification, as he does not condemn the efficacy of supernatural works according to grace.

to be continued…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued…

Supernatural works, which is what St. Paul calls the “obedience of faith” in Christ, and what St. James calls the works that justify is necessary for eternal life. As C.H. Spurgeon states, "faith that makes us obey is alone the faith which marks the children of God… The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey… Obedient faith is the way to eternal life."

Amen Friar Spurgeon!!! Obedient faith is indeed the ONLY way to eternal life!!

That’s exactly what I’ve been asserting, that we must believe in Christ in the manner that St. John describes “belief,” as necessarily including faithful obedience to Him. Belief is far more than the intellectual exercise of fudiciary faith. Justifying faith cannot be disobedient to Christ’s will!!! Yet, justifying faith is far more than mere obedience to the law. It must be works according to grace. "Faith in action" is a faith that includes love and obedience in accord with the New Law of Christ, a stricter law as it requires an obedience born of faith and love for it to have any hope. Sacred Scritpure teaches us that this kind of faith, for it to be a justifying faith, it needs to be a faith working in love.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It’s very encouraging to see an English Baptist who was (among his other concerns) a vigorous critic of the claims and character of “Romanism” not being dismissed by Catholics, but quoted appreciatively for what Catholics and he have in common.​

I do hope this nice friendliness spreads - there ought to be far more of it, whenever possible; so and definitely no :tsktsk: to itsjustdave for his posts ##

 

[ONeal]

How can someone read this passage and come away from it believing that we are saved by works of obedience to the 10 commandments we do? If what Paul really mean by “not by works” was: “not by ceremonial works - but, I’m not excluding the 10 commandments…” don’t you think it’s extremely sloppy for him to write these verses the way he did?

Where in Ephesians does Paul flush out this distinction between ceremonial works and the decalogue? And where does he teach that we are saved on the basis of our own works we do?

ONeal

 

[TEME525]

I think to help with this passage we can turn to those scholars who study the Bible from a historical perspective. Some of the earlier threads did touch on what I hope to get accross.

Looking at all of Paul’s letters an understanding has developed that during the Apostolic Times the Church was divided over the question of our identity. One school of thought (for want of a better term) held to be a true follower of Christ one had to continue to follow the Mosaic Law. After all, Christ did say that He hadn’t come to abolish the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them and again Christ said that not a letter of the Law was to be done away with until the end of time. In Paul’s letters and in Acts the one who personified this belief was James, the head of the Church in Jerusalem. It’s important to remember that James and the Church of Jerusalem had experience Jesus in His ministry and the Risen Christ at the time of the Resurrection itself, so they were coming from a personal and immediate experience of Christ Jesus.

Paul, however, who never met nor saw Jesus in the flesh had a different perspective. The perspective was really developed in his missionary ministry to the Gentile. Paul, who had experience the Risen Lord in a unique way, say that Jesus not only fulfilled the Old Covenant and thus the Law, but being the “New Adam” establish a whole New Covenant, that superceed the Old to such an extent that he saw the Church as the New Israel and the Gentiles as the New Israelites, the true sons of Abraham. He even went so far as to call the Jews who would not accept Jesus as the Christ, the son of Haggar the slave of Abraham who bore him a son in slavery, not freedom. And Paul saw the real slavery was the Law, it had become an impediment to accepting Christ.

Need less to say this put Paul at odds with a good potion of the Church and we find in Paul’s letters the constant struggle he faced. He would establish a Church (Corinth, Galatia etc) based on his Christology which lead him to believe we were no longer bond by the Mosaic Law, only to have representative from James come in and demand that all Christians follow the Law. Paul saw this especially threatening to his gentile converts who were not very found of the Mosaic Laws prohibition and especially the demand of Circumcision. Paul feared that the Gentile, in rejecting the Mosaic Law were apt to reject the whole of Christianity.

This is what he was writing about when he writes against “Works” as oppose to Faith. The works he was always refering to was keeping the Mosaic Law, never the works of Agape Love as demanded by Christ for His followers.

 

[Della]

And where does he teach that we are saved on the basis of our own works we do?

He didn’t and neither does the Church. Paul teaches, as I wrote in my other posts, which, naturally, the Church teaches also, that we are saved through the grace of God which enables us to have saving faith and to do the good works God has planned for us to do. It really IS that simple!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

ONeal:

How can someone read this passage and come away from it believing that we are saved by works of obedience to the 10 commandments we do?

Good question. Who is asserting this? I’m not.

I’m asserting that we are bound by the New Law, which includes but is not limited to the Divine moral precepts of the Old Law.

For example, in C.H. Spurgeon’s sermon, he speaks of the obedience of Abraham. By faith, Abraham obeyed. According to Scripture, for justifying faith, one must obey. Disobedience to God is incompatible with justifying faith. So, it is faith active along with works, and faith completed by works which justifies (cf. James 2:22).