What is the meaning of Matt 18:15-17?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wildkit
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

Wildkit

Guest
What does Jesus mean in Matthew 18:15-17? 15 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Why go to the Church? What if my church tells me something I don’t like? What do I do? Besides, how many churches were there at that point in history?
 
The Church, at that time was quite small–just the Apostles and other disciples. Remember, Jesus had not yet died on the cross and the forming of the Church at Pentecost was still in the future.

What Jesus is talking about is how his followers ought to settle disputes with one another. We are to seek out our brother in love with whom we have a serious disagreement. The calling of other witnesses was a continuation of how the Jews handled their disputes. If more than one other person says the brother who sinned against another brother is wrong, he should accept their witness and apologize/make things right. Only if he wouldn’t acknowledge that witness was it to be brought it to their religious leaders.

Now days we don’t do this as much as they did in Jesus’ day when communities were small and everyone knew everyone else. But, it is still better to settle such matters between one Christian and another rather than bringing a brother into court. St. Paul tells us that, as well. Of course, some things are too serious to be settled so simply–things like major theft or murder, but for the ordinary problems we might have with a fellow parish member, we ought to settle such disputes in love, between just the two unless it becomes necessary to bring other parish members and the clergy into it.
 
What does Jesus mean in Matthew 18:15-17? 15 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Some theologians speculate that it was added at a later date.

The bible is not the church it is only a users manual for the church
 
What does Jesus mean in Matthew 18:15-17? 15 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Why go to the Church? What if my church tells me something I don’t like? What do I do? Besides, how many churches were there at that point in history?
Would you be so kind as to give us the background for your question? Is there a specific problem your are confronting?

In general, if you think torturing and killing someone might be fun and the church says you can’t do it, then it’s wrong. Whether or not you like hearing that message is irrelevant. You heed the message, obey, and re-think your attitude.

Jesus came to teach “the way, the truth and the life” not the way, the truth, and the like.

Nan
 
What does Jesus mean in Matthew 18:15-17? 15 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Why go to the Church? What if my church tells me something I don’t like? What do I do? Besides, how many churches were there at that point in history?
Remember the context of this. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience and Jesus was teaching Jews. In the Jewish society of the time, there was no “separation of church and state”–the state was the church and vice versa. Also remember that in Judaism, in order for one’s name to be inscribed on the book of life on the Day of Atonement each year, one must see amends for offenses, not only against God, but against other humans jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm.

By taking your grievance to your brother in private first, you give him the opportunity to correct his behavior and make amends, either to you or to whomever he has wronged (since not all manuscripts include the “against you” section), without dragging it out in public and humiliating him needlessly.

Taking witnesses with you if he doesn’t listen the first time is a reference to Deut. 19:15-19: " One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, 17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, 19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. "

It is a law designed to protect people from being falsely accused out of spite or evil intent. It also protects you from counter accusations that you treated him unfairly and can be used to call in people that the offender respects to add their voices to yours.

If knowing that more than only you know of his sin is not sufficient to cause him to change his ways, go to the church --ie, to the authorities of your people who have a reason to care what happens to him, his community–for a more public dealing with his sin/crime.

If that doesn’t work, ie you can’t keep dirty laundry within the “family” so to speak and deal with it yourselves, treat him as you would an outsider who had no ties to the community and turn him over to the (at the time) Roman authorities to be punished (the Jews were living under Roman occupation). You’ve done all you could to save him from those who would perhaps judge and punish him more harshly, but he has chosen to make an outcast of himself–no longer part of the community or worthy of it’s protection.

At any rate, there’s my interpretation, for what it’s worth 🙂

You may find some of the resources listed at the following site useful. I have not looked at the vast majority of them, but it looks helpful.
textweek.com/mtlk/matt18a.htm
 
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Nan, where I am coming from is my text searching for “church”. You statement about church and state is interesting, but when I read Acts 15: 1-12, specifically verse 3, they are clearly not talking about the state.

1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” 2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. 3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. 4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them 5 But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.” 6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. 7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” 12 The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.

It seems like this was an example of the instructions Christ gave in Matthew 18:15-17. If so, why did they go to the others?

Next, what would happen if one church disagreed with another church, say on birth control or embryonic stem cell research? What then? It doesn’t seem Jesus made any provisions there.
 
I think this is the Holy Spirit showing us the final authority of the Church. If you have a problem with a brother and you cannot settle it. Take it to the Church. If he doesn’t accept the Churches authoriy then he gets excommunicated and God have mercy on his soul.

As to your question about different Churches. There is only one Church with the fullness of truth, and whose magisterium in communion with the Bishop of Rome has the final authority on matters of Faith and morality…So it is pretty easy, if you are told something that contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church, then it is incorrect (the use of contraception is a great example).
 
I think this is the Holy Spirit showing us the final authority of the Church. If you have a problem with a brother and you cannot settle it. Take it to the Church. If he doesn’t accept the Churches authoriy then he gets excommunicated and God have mercy on his soul.

As to your question about different Churches. There is only one Church with the fullness of truth, and whose magisterium in communion with the Bishop of Rome has the final authority on matters of Faith and morality…So it is pretty easy, if you are told something that contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church, then it is incorrect (the use of contraception is a great example).
Why then are there other Churches? Did Luther or Calvin not obey the word of Christ?

This is such a critical passage, or am I overlooking something?
 
Why then are there other Churches? Did Luther or Calvin not obey the word of Christ?

This is such a critical passage, or am I overlooking something?
You’re not overlooking anything. Luther and Calvin DID disobey.

Sometimes the truth is so obvious that we have to look twice to recognize it.

Nan
 
You’re not overlooking anything. Luther and Calvin DID disobey.

Sometimes the truth is so obvious that we have to look twice to recognize it.

Nan
I guess I can presume right now what the response would be from a Lutheran. Luther did go to the Church, i.e……his priest. Yet, he didn’t like what he heard,………but it stopped there and a new form on Christianity was formed so to speak.

If I don’t like what the Church tells me,……so what!

Yet, there is a hierarchy in the Church,……I am not certain how far Luther took all of his issues.

I guess Calvin was just smarter than the rest of the pious priests. Again, forget about what Christ instructed of his followers.

Yet, it is right there in the Sola Scriptura of what to do,…….if you have a problem (on a church related matter), …….go to the Church!

There is a ready made thread for Orthodoxy here,…….but first things first.

Maybe things are indeed too obvious such that we overlook everything!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top