What is the nature of Eternity?

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You can’t, through reason, conclude with certainty that there is a creator. You can believe. YOu can assume that nothing that exists is self creating. But of course, if you believe in the Creator, then you believe is something that exsts that is self creating (God). So if you can believe God is self creating then why not believe that the universe was self creating?
I, for one, do not believe that God was self-creating. This is non-sensical.

How can anything which does not exist, will itself into existence?

I believe, and the Catholic Church teaches, that God is eternally existent.

What that means, in strict terms, can be discussed at great length.

Certainly, the easiest intrepretation of this statement for the human mind to grasp is that there never was a time when God was not.

Of course, a fine point to consider is that, at least in Catholic theology, God created time and exists independent of it, so of course the previous statement is true.

Naturally I think this leads to the question of eternity. God apparently exists there. So what is it?

I think I’ll start a thread on that.

**I posted the above on Valke2’s thread about absolute truth and have followed through on my statement.

What do you think the nature of eternity is?

Or what do you think, if anything, exists outside the universe?

To make an analogy, waves propagate in water, similarly humans propagate in space and time, that is to say that we exist in it as a medium.

So what is the medium the universe exists in? What is outside of time?**
 
I’m not sure how this fits in, but I don’t believe time exists. It is a name we give to an experience we have. All things in the universe move through space in relationship to one another. At any given ‘moment’ things are in a certain spatial relationship to one another, and that keeps changing. What we call moving through time, I believe is actually us moving through space.

We cannot go back in “time” because we cannot ever put everything in the universe back into the same spatial relationship to each other.

Our sense of how time passes shows this…sometimes it feels fast, other times slow, because of our awareness. We measure time how? by using implements that measure spatial relationships.

Eternity exists only if things keep altering their spatial relationships to one another. I have no idea if they will, or even if they do. It is possible that they periodically pause. I will never know, because my thoughts would likewise pause, and be taken up again just where they left off when motion began again.

cheddar
 
To make an analogy, waves propagate in water, similarly humans propagate in space and time, that is to say that we exist in it as a medium.
I like this statement. You can imagine the “track” that an individual makes, as during his life he travels through space and time, as his “worldline.” Any given point on the worldline can be designated by 3 spatial coordinates and one temporal coordinate.

Your awareness only occupes one point of the worldline at a time. But the entirety of your existence as a human being comprises ALL the points on the worldline. What this means is that you are never in full possession of your self. You never fully possess the totality of your being. (Except perhaps at death, but that is another discussion.)

Eternity is that mode of existence in which a person possesses the totality of his existence at once and always. A person living in eternity does not need memory or anticipation because all points along anyone’s worldline are experienced as “now.”

Naturally, this cannot occur within a time-filled universe.

So anyone possessing this characteristic–i.e., God–must of necessity exist outside the universe, though not without relation to it.
 
God is self-generating.

God has no beginning and no end, but is the beginning and end of everything else. “I am the Alpha and the Omega.”

To say that God created Himself would be to say that a situation existed when God did not exist.

God is unchanging. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.”

God is greater than everything else.

God is the source of everything else.

God is greater than time. God created time. God existed when and where time did not exist.

To say that time existed before God would be to say that time is greater than God. Time would be the source of everything else, and God as we know Him would be something less.

To say that time existed simultaneously with God would be to say that something which is not God would be equal to God and would be binding upon God. Once again, God as we know Him would be something less.

“Before, during, and after” are words that make sense only within time.

In order for man to have Free Will, to be able to choose freely whether he will be with God or apart from God, man needs two things. First, man must know the difference between I was there, I am here, and I will be somewhere else. Second, man must be able to both choose his position between here and there, and move between those positions.

Through His great love, God, who exists outside of time and is unchanging, created time so that man could choose and change. He created time so that whoever joins Him in heaven will be there voluntarily.

What a glorious genius God is to conceive of time, a situation which is completely different from his basic unchanging nature, and bring it into being so as to magnify His love.

(That should either clarify things, or completely lose some people.)

God Bless,
Nan
 
I’m not sure how this fits in, but I don’t believe time exists. It is a name we give to an experience we have. All things in the universe move through space in relationship to one another. At any given ‘moment’ things are in a certain spatial relationship to one another, and that keeps changing. What we call moving through time, I believe is actually us moving through space.

We cannot go back in “time” because we cannot ever put everything in the universe back into the same spatial relationship to each other.

Our sense of how time passes shows this…sometimes it feels fast, other times slow, because of our awareness. We measure time how? by using implements that measure spatial relationships.

Eternity exists only if things keep altering their spatial relationships to one another. I have no idea if they will, or even if they do. It is possible that they periodically pause. I will never know, because my thoughts would likewise pause, and be taken up again just where they left off when motion began again.

cheddar
Time obviously does exist, time can exist if we have the ability to delineate between past and present. For example, entropy always increases and we never see dropped eggs spontaneously reform themselves. Time is asymmetric
 
Time obviously does exist, time can exist if we have the ability to delineate between past and present. For example, entropy always increases and we never see dropped eggs spontaneously reform themselves. Time is asymmetric
I think “time” is a term we use to describe our experience of things changing their spatial relationship to one another, but I do not believe time exists as a seperate “thing” from this change in spatial relationship.

our experience of time would cease if everything ceased changing in spatial relationship.

this in no way diagrees with entropy,nor does the fact that we can observe this change in spatial relationship (delineate past/present) alter this.

cheddar
 
I’m not sure how this fits in, but I don’t believe time exists.
I don’t think we have the means to prove it yet. But I think that time is actually a fundamental force of the universe, akin to a wavelength on the electromagnetic spectrum.

http://lasp.colorado.edu/cassini/images/Electromagnetic Spectrum.jpg

So, to present it in a means which can be quickly comprehended in theory, I would posit this…

Time
Radio
Microwaves
Infrared
Visible Spectrum
Ultraviolet
X-Rays
Gamma Rays
Gravity
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cheddarsox:
It is a name we give to an experience we have. All things in the universe move through space in relationship to one another. At any given ‘moment’ things are in a certain spatial relationship to one another, and that keeps changing. What we call moving through time, I believe is actually us moving through space.
I would rather say that time is an extradimensional part of the spectrum which dovetails back into gravity, and then begins the cycle all over again.
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cheddarsox:
We cannot go back in “time” because we cannot ever put everything in the universe back into the same spatial relationship to each other.
According to the Scriptural record, time was made to flow backward. Admittedly, I would not consider this scientific evidence of the event happening. However, it is consistent with a power that one outside the scope of time-space would be expected to have.
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cheddarsox:
Our sense of how time passes shows this…sometimes it feels fast, other times slow, because of our awareness. We measure time how? by using implements that measure spatial relationships.
And yet science can measure a distinct time-dialation that exists independanty of our ability to experience it. So, for example, time really does pass more quickly in outer space because gravity does not exert as much influence on us out there. For example, the astronauts found that their beards grew slightly more quickly than those here on earth.

This doesn’t seem to be just a perception. This appears to be a physical constraint on the very fabric of the cosmos itself. So perhaps out experiencing of time going slower or faster is rather humankind’s ability to pick up on extremely minor fluctuations in the passing of time.
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cheddarsox:
Eternity exists only if things keep altering their spatial relationships to one another. I have no idea if they will, or even if they do. It is possible that they periodically pause. I will never know, because my thoughts would likewise pause, and be taken up again just where they left off when motion began again.

cheddar
But that’s where the question of God comes in.

If God does exist outside the constraints of timespace, then the stopping of time would not effect him. Time stopping would not pause his thoughts.

He could walk through the universe, stoppping time at will, so as to view the universe much like those funky Matrix scenes, taking the time to view a particular event from multiple angles at the same time, and then allowing time to flow again.
 
I don’t think we have the means to prove it yet. But I think that time is actually a fundamental force of the universe, akin to a wavelength on the electromagnetic spectrum.

http://lasp.colorado.edu/cassini/images/Electromagnetic Spectrum.jpg

So, to present it in a means which can be quickly comprehended in theory, I would posit this…

Time
Radio
Microwaves
Infrared
Visible Spectrum
Ultraviolet
X-Rays
Gamma Rays
Gravity

I would rather say that time is an extradimensional part of the spectrum which dovetails back into gravity, and then begins the cycle all over again.

I don’t think I understand what you mean by this. So I won’t comment.

According to the Scriptural record, time was made to flow backward. Admittedly, I would not consider this scientific evidence of the event happening. However, it is consistent with a power that one outside the scope of time-space would be expected to have.

If something has the power to cause things to move back into a spatial relationship that they had previously (I mean everything in the universe back in exactly the same spaciel relationship) then that “time” would be repeated, or moved back. A Divine being, who is in charge of the universe, would be expected to have that ability, and thus the ability to “control” or move back time.

And yet science can measure a distinct time-dialation that exists independanty of our ability to experience it. So, for example, time really does pass more quickly in outer space because gravity does not exert as much influence on us out there. For example, the astronauts found that their beards grew slightly more quickly than those here on earth.

Gravity, is the attraction (spatial) that exists between objects. If gravity is greater or lesser…it would be expected to alter the change in spatial relationship between objects, and thus affect “time”.

This doesn’t seem to be just a perception. This appears to be a physical constraint on the very fabric of the cosmos itself. So perhaps out experiencing of time going slower or faster is rather humankind’s ability to pick up on extremely minor fluctuations in the passing of time.

***It might very well be. This is just my personal theory of what time is. And theories are just useful ideas that help us take the next step in discovery. But I think it is a theory worth tossing around, so I brought it up here. I’m glad some folks think it’s worthy of discussion. Keeps things interesting and our minds active.

But that’s where the question of God comes in.

If God does exist outside the constraints of timespace, then the stopping of time would not effect him. Time stopping would not pause his thoughts.

He could walk through the universe, stoppping time at will, so as to view the universe much like those funky Matrix scenes, taking the time to view a particular event from multiple angles at the same time, and then allowing time to flow again.
***I agree, if a deity has control over the universe…then it would definitely have control over “time”. Most of the concepts I know of deities is that they exist “beyond time” , where it does not have the limiting effects on them that we perceive.

I believe that also fits with my understanding of “time”, they are not material, and subject to the alteration of spatial relationship that humans and other material things are.***

These things are lots of fun to think about!
 
I don’t think I understand what you mean by this. So I won’t comment.
I guess Carl Sagan probably summed it up best when he said that space is curved, there is no center to the Cosmos, and that the universe is finite but unbounded.
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cheddarsox:
If something has the power to cause things to move back into a spatial relationship that they had previously (I mean everything in the universe back in exactly the same spaciel relationship) then that “time” would be repeated, or moved back. A Divine being, who is in charge of the universe, would be expected to have that ability, and thus the ability to “control” or move back time.
But the question remains:

Can the being who is caught within timespace be aware of these ‘skips’ in the timestream?

Some people think experiences of deja-vu are people experiencing these ‘skips’ so to speak.
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cheddarsox:
Gravity, is the attraction (spatial) that exists between objects. If gravity is greater or lesser…it would be expected to alter the change in spatial relationship between objects, and thus affect “time”.
But the equation seems to breaks down at somwe point, since gravity is not required for time to exist. Things can happen without reference to gravity, but not without reference to time.

For example, even if someone were in a timeless realm for example, they would still experience the changing of events even though no time would be passing to record the change.

Time is really a series of events, one after the other, and time plots history eventually.
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cheddarsox:
It might very well be. This is just my personal theory of what time is. And theories are just useful ideas that help us take the next step in discovery. But I think it is a theory worth tossing around, so I brought it up here. I’m glad some folks think it’s worthy of discussion. Keeps things interesting and our minds active.
True. It certainly opens up certain questions which can enable someone to think about the divine in a different kind of way.
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cheddarsox:
I agree, if a deity has control over the universe…then it would definitely have control over “time”. Most of the concepts I know of deities is that they exist “beyond time” , where it does not have the limiting effects on them that we perceive.
But can the deity in question bring the believer into a realm that exists without time. I guess I’m thinking of Carl Sagan’s flatland at this point.
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cheddarsox:
I believe that also fits with my understanding of “time”, they are not material, and subject to the alteration of spatial relationship that humans and other material things are.
But just because they are not material does not mean they do not exist. Light has no material so to speak. It’s more of less a wave. And yet we can feel its effects on material. Light does exist.

Same too with magnetism. Magnetism is not a material. It’s a force which acts upon material when certain conditions are met. The Magnetism may exist independently of the material universe for example for all we know-- but certain conditions may bring it about within the material universe in theory. Either way, magnetism does not exist in any material form, and yet we can feel it’s effects everywhere.

Perhaps God as Spirit acts much the same way.
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cheddarsox:
These things are lots of fun to think about!
True. 🙂

Do you think time could be sentient?
 
I guess Carl Sagan probably summed it up best when he said that space is curved, there is no center to the Cosmos, and that the universe is finite but unbounded.

My theory about the universe…is that it is a torus, and the contents keep revolving, conveyerbelt style from the interior of the “hole” to the outside, then back “in” on the other side…etc. So yes, curved, but there is always somewhere to go…so to speak. (humming and old Moody Blues tune…out and in)

But the question remains:

Can the being who is caught within timespace be aware of these ‘skips’ in the timestream?

No, because the particles in our brain, which hold memory by the position they take, would also have been moved back, so they would not hold the position that resulted in the memory…***

Some people think experiences of deja-vu are people experiencing these ‘skips’ so to speak.

***I had a major episode of this yesterday. I had had a dream about 18 months ago, even told my husband about it, because it was so “odd”. And yesterday…lived what had happened in the dream. I have no idea how/why this occured. No theory at all!

But the equation seems to breaks down at somwe point, since gravity is not required for time to exist. Things can happen without reference to gravity, but not without reference to time.

I sort of flip this…time is how we explain things happening. Things happen, through the event of things changing relational space and exchanging energy, and we call this “time”. If things ceased to change relational space and ceased exchanging energy, what we refer to as time would also cease. We would not have time except for the change in relational space and the exchange of energy.

For example, even if someone were in a timeless realm for example, they would still experience the changing of events even though no time would be passing to record the change.

***How? what is time and how is it experienced apart from…things happening? The only way we know that time is passing, is that events take place. ***

Time is really a series of events, one after the other, and time plots history eventually.

But can the deity in question bring the believer into a realm that exists without time. I guess I’m thinking of Carl Sagan’s flatland at this point.

***I would say no, because what would they be bringing into the timeless place? Something that is bound by time. The believer would need to be transformed into a timeless being in order to enter the timeless place.

But just because they are not material does not mean they do not exist. Light has no material so to speak. It’s more of less a wave. And yet we can feel its effects on material. Light does exist.

Same too with magnetism. Magnetism is not a material. It’s a force which acts upon material when certain conditions are met. The Magnetism may exist independently of the material universe for example for all we know-- but certain conditions may bring it about within the material universe in theory. Either way, magnetism does not exist in any material form, and yet we can feel it’s effects everywhere.

You’re preaching to the choir. I never argued that things that are not material do not exist. It is clear they do.

Perhaps God as Spirit acts much the same way.

I suspect the Divine is very much like gravity and magnetism, holding it all together, but a bit tricky to “pin down” It is the innate “intelligence” that keeps everything happening.

True. 🙂

Do you think time could be sentient?
***I don’t think time could be sentient, because I don’t believe it exists, I think it is a word we use as shorthand for some things that happen on a scale that is hard or maybe even impossible for us to grasp. Human language has lots of words that cover for concepts that we don’t fully understand, sometimes they fall into disuse when continued observation leads to an explanation (phlogeston is no longer considered to be the cause of fire). As long as things keep happening, and we are here to experience them, we will perceive this as time, so it is a very useful term, and we’re likely to hold onto it.

If time exists, I think it only does so as the result of the change in spatial relationship and exchange of energy between all things. It is what we experience as a result of those occurences.

cheddar

 
I think the nature of eternity is trying to read this thread. It seems like an eternity to me.
 
I’m really enjoying everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic.

And though I don’t agree with the sentiment, I got a good belly laugh out of Damascus’ comment!

I have, in the past, played around with something akin to what cheddarsox is saying but slightly different. What I think time may be is motion in a spatial dimension, but one which we perceive as time, not space.

Time is often spoken of as the 4th dimension and I think it’s right to consider it so. Naturally this has led me to wonder if what we experience as time is simply the expansion of the universe along the ‘t-axis’.

Somebody referenced flatland earlier and that’s related to what I’m saying. Suppose that there is a 4th spatial dimension and to any being that is truly 4 dimensional we look to him like a stick man on paper looks to us. And what we experience as time could be loosely analagous to the pages of our flipbook being flipped through. Although more properly analagous to our paper being blown along by the wind.

I was discussing a similar topic with a doctor recently and his wish was to be able to access the 4th dimension so that he could reach inside someone’s body the way we can “reach” inside the stick man’s. Imagine if science were able to crack that nut. A surgeons tool could enter the 4th dimension and from there, your insides are as accessible as the interior of a circle on a paper. Surgery could literally be done without any incision or invasiveness at all.

But that’s a little off topic.

The nature of eternity is a mind-boggling subject to me. Having only a linear experience of time to refer to, I simply can’t imagine what it must be like to exist where there is no time. I imagine a perpetual present where all that has ever happened is accessible, like a strip of celluloid or something, but even that must be far short because it presupposes that events will be experienced in succession. But it can’t be like that because that implies time. So it must be that all events are experienced simultaneously. But then how do you distinguish them?

What happens to spatial relationships in such a scenario? It seems that they must completely break down, because I cannot be here and then there. This implies a now and then, but there is no now and then! In some way, this must be related to the omnipresence and omniscience of God.

I mean, think about this: if I were to exist outside of time, I could not learn a new thing, because that implies time! It implies a now when I don’t know and a then when I do, but there is no now and then!

It’s even wrong to say there is just a now. It is perhaps more right to say, in such a scenario, there is just an is, just an existence. And in fact, that is what God says in the OT, I AM (Ex. 3:14).
 
My theory about the universe…is that it is a torus, and the contents keep revolving, conveyerbelt style from the interior of the “hole” to the outside, then back “in” on the other side…etc. So yes, curved, but there is always somewhere to go…so to speak. (humming and old Moody Blues tune…out and in)
Interesting.

How did this process start then?

I ask because Big Bang cosmology seems to strongly indicate that the universe did have a beginning.
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cheddarsox:
No, because the particles in our brain, which hold memory by the position they take, would also have been moved back, so they would not hold the position that resulted in the memory…
Ah yes…but what about the soul?

If the soul is indeed eternal, would it not be connected to this timeless realm so to speak?

And, if so, could the soul retain the memory even though the flesh forgot it?
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cheddarsox:
I had a major episode of this yesterday. I had had a dream about 18 months ago, even told my husband about it, because it was so “odd”. And yesterday…lived what had happened in the dream. I have no idea how/why this occured. No theory at all!
Kind of throws a wrench in the gears, doesn’t it?
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cheddarsox:
I sort of flip this…time is how we explain things happening. Things happen, through the event of things changing relational space and exchanging energy, and we call this “time”. If things ceased to change relational space and ceased exchanging energy, what we refer to as time would also cease. We would not have time except for the change in relational space and the exchange of energy.
But if something is unchanging, does that mean it doesn’t exist?

If something is indeed eternal and has no beginning, how do we distinguish this eternal object from something that had no beginning and never existed to begin with?
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cheddarsox:
How? what is time and how is it experienced apart from…things happening? The only way we know that time is passing, is that events take place.
And yet you had an experience where you dreamed about something before it happened?

Assuming everything you say is accurate, how could this kind of superluminous experience happen if time cannot be experienced apart from…things happening?
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cheddarsox:
I would say no, because what would they be bringing into the timeless place? Something that is bound by time. The believer would need to be transformed into a timeless being in order to enter the timeless place.
Yes, but if the transformation were only temporary, then their soul, which is eternal, could retain the imprint of the exprience and manifest it in the flesh.

Consider Enoch and Elijah for a potential example.
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cheddarsox:
You’re preaching to the choir. I never argued that things that are not material do not exist. It is clear they do.
Yes, but you are stating that something has to happen in order to record time. I’m suggesting that things do not need to happen in order to measure time. Much like numbers existing independantly of human experience, it seems that time can exist independantly of events happening.

At least, that’s what you experience seems to be suggesting to me. 🙂
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cheddarsox:
I suspect the Divine is very much like gravity and magnetism, holding it all together, but a bit tricky to “pin down” It is the innate “intelligence” that keeps everything happening.
Perhaps a kind of renormalization?

Is it possible for laws, like Kepler’s Laws of Gravity, to be sentient?
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cheddarsox:
I don’t think time could be sentient, because I don’t believe it exists, I think it is a word we use as shorthand for some things that happen on a scale that is hard or maybe even impossible for us to grasp. Human language has lots of words that cover for concepts that we don’t fully understand, sometimes they fall into disuse when continued observation leads to an explanation (phlogeston is no longer considered to be the cause of fire). As long as things keep happening, and we are here to experience them, we will perceive this as time, so it is a very useful term, and we’re likely to hold onto it.
I’ve often wondered what would happen when the expansion of the universe reaches the speed of light. For example, according to the best estimates we have, the universe is theorized to be expanding at a rate of 72 kilometres per second per megaparsec. That’s extremely fast.

But, if the expansion of the universe where to actually reach the speed of light, what would happen to the fabric of the universe?
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cheddarsox:
If time exists, I think it only does so as the result of the change in spatial relationship and exchange of energy between all things. It is what we experience as a result of those occurences.

cheddar
Then how do you explain your experience which you knew of 18 months before it actually happened?

How did you remember the future?
 
Somebody referenced flatland earlier and that’s related to what I’m saying.
In discussing the large-scale structure of the Cosmos, astronomers are fond of saying that space is curved, or that there is no center to the Cosmos, or that the universe is finite but unbounded.
Whatever are they talking about?
Let us imagine we inhabit a strange country where everyone is perfectly flat. Following Edwin Abbott, a Shakespearean scholar who lived in Victorian England, we call it Flatland.
Some of us are squares; some are triangles; some have more complex shapes. We scurry about, in and out of our flat buildings, occupied with our flat businesses and dalliances.
Everyone in Flatland has width and length, but no height whatever. We know about left-right and forward-back, but have no hint, not a trace of comprehension, about up-down - except for flat mathematicians.
They say, ‘Listen, it’s really very easy.
Imagine left-right.
Imagine forward-back.
Okay, so far?
Now imagine another dimension, at right angles to the
other two.’
And we say, ‘What are you talking about? “At right angles to the other two!” There are only two dimensions. Point to that third dimension. Where is it?’
So the mathematicians, disheartened, amble off.
Nobody listens to mathematicians. 😦
Every square creature in Flatland sees another square as merely a short line segment, the side of the square nearest to him. He can see the other side of the square only by taking a short walk. But the inside of a square is forever mysterious, unless some terrible accident or autopsy breaches the sides and exposes the interior parts.
One day a three-dimensional creature - shaped like an apple, say - comes upon Flatland, hovering above it. Observing a particularly attractive and congenial-looking square entering its flat house, the apple decides, in a gesture of interdimensional amity, to say hello.
‘How are you?’ asks the visitor from the third dimension. ‘I am a visitor from the third dimension.’
The wretched square looks about his closed house and sees no one. What is worse, to him it appears that the greeting, entering from above, is emanating from his own flat body, a voice from within.
A little insanity, he perhaps reminds himself gamely, runs in the family.
Exasperated at being judged a psychological aberration, the apple descends into Flatland.
Now a three-dimensional creature can exist, in Flatland, only partially; only a cross section can be seen, only the points of contact with the plane surface of Flatland. An apple slithering through Flatland would appear first as a point and then as progressively larger, roughly circular slices.
The square sees a point appearing in a closed room in his two-dimensional world and slowly growing into a near circle. A creature of strange and changing shape has appeared from nowhere.
Rebuffed, unhappy at the obtuseness of the very flat, the apple bumps the square and sends him aloft, fluttering and spinning into that mysterious third dimension.
At first the square can make no sense of what is happening; it is utterly outside his experience. But eventually he realizes that he is viewing Flatland from a peculiar vantage point: ‘above’.
He can see into closed rooms. He can see into his flat fellows. He is viewing his universe from a unique and devastating perspective. Traveling through another dimension provides, as an incidental benefit, a kind of Xray vision.
Eventually, like a falling leaf, our square slowly descends to the surface. From the point of view of his fellow Flatlanders, he has unaccountably disappeared from a closed room and then distressingly materialized from nowhere.
‘For heaven’s sake,’ they say, ‘what’s happened to you?’
‘I think,’ he finds himself replying, ‘I was “up.” ’
They pat him on his sides and comfort him.
Delusions always ran in his family.
 
The nature of eternity is a mind-boggling subject to me. … So it must be that all events are experienced simultaneously. But then how do you distinguish them?

What happens to spatial relationships in such a scenario? It seems that they must completely break down, because I cannot be here and then there. This implies a now and then, but there is no now and then! In some way, this must be related to the omnipresence and omniscience of God.

I mean, think about this: if I were to exist outside of time, I could not learn a new thing, because that implies time! It implies a now when I don’t know and a then when I do, but there is no now and then!

It’s even wrong to say there is just a now. It is perhaps more right to say, in such a scenario, there is just an is, just an existence. And in fact, that is what God says in the OT, I AM (Ex. 3:14).
You’ve about got it nailed.

To God, who is outside of Linear Time, everything is simultaneous. And everything there is to know He already knows. This is one way how He is omnicient. This is how He can know what we, who are within Linear Time and bound by its rules, will do before we do it. It is God’s great genius that is able to concieve of a way to distinguish a progression of events and create a situation where such a progression can exist, which is Linear Time.

God created Linear Time so that Free Will could exist. God created Linear Time so that we could choose where we will spend eternity.

Spatial relationships still exist in eternity, and once in heaven we may be able to recognize the difference between here and there, but there is no travel between here and there. Jesus talked about it in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus:

Lk 16:22-26 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

At best we may have a memory of being able to move, which will magnify the joy of the saved ones, and will compound the regret of the unsaved.

2 Thess 1:9-10 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

As to God’s omnipresence, I turn to something that may have been glimpsed dimly by Augustine, was theorized by Einstein, and has been proven in the space program.

To us standing on this earth, light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Light can not be sped up or slowed down; that is the speed of its travel until all of its energy is absorbed.

However, when an object accelerates beyond the speed at which we are traveling through space, the passage of time on that object slows. Astronauts traveling on the space shuttle actually experience less passage of time than we do here. At the speeds they are moving it’s only a few seconds difference, so it is of little consequence in our world, but still it is there.

Now project the implications of this: Forget all the Star Trek stuff about traveling at warp speeds and coming back home to friends and family. That’s all total fiction. An astronaut on a starship traveling at, say, 10% of the speed of light would experience the passage of a few months and return to earth to find that hundreds of years had passed there.

An astronaut on a starship traveling at 99% of the speed of light would experiencing only a few moments time himself while seeing the entire universe grow old and reach its end.

An astronaut on a starship that could actually reach the speed of light would see time come to a halt. He could, in effect, be everywhere at once.

God, who is outside of time, is everywhere at once. He is omnipresent.

(Before you ask, accelerating past the speed of light does not make time travel backwards. That’s all fantasy, too.)

I know that’s a bunch to chew on at once. Try to get some sleep tonight anyway.

Nan
 
How did this process start then?

I don’t know. I’m not sure what the spatial relationship of the “hole” in the torus is to the rest of it, maybe it approaches infinity in how closely it closes in on itself. This is just my theory, I’m not proclaiming it as Absolute truth. How did it all start? The Divine, but I don’t pretend to know how any of it was accomplished.

I ask because Big Bang cosmology seems to strongly indicate that the universe did have a beginning.

Frankly, I’m not a supporter of the big bang. My spouse is a scientist, I’m a scientist, have lots of scientist friends. Funny thing…when you know these people personally, alot of the “ooooo, but Science says so…” wears off. They are people with theories, who work hard to explain what we observe. But especially in terms of astrophysics and the like…humans have existed for such a short amount of time, and we have been “aware” of what’s “out there” such a tiny amount of time (lol, time…such a handy concept), that we can’t possibly pretend to “know” too much of anything. There are cycles that we haven’t been around long enough to detect. So we theorize, based on the little we know, and that allows us to take the next step, but it is not a good idea to get too attached to our theories, or to mistake them for truth. They are the climbing gear, not the view from the top.

Ah yes…but what about the soul?
Define soul. Does soul have memory? This seems to vary wildly under different religious beliefs. So what is your stand on the issue?
Kind of throws a wrench in the gears, doesn’t it?

My dream was puzzling, no doubt about that.

But if something is unchanging, does that mean it doesn’t exist?

I wouldn’t make that claim, I’m human and am limited in what I am able to perceive directly by the senses that my human body has. I have never known anything material that wasn’t subject to change, but there are things like gravity and magnetism…forces that seem universal. I suspect there are many things that exist that I am simply unequipped to perceive, or are currently unmeasurable through the means humans have at hand.

If something is indeed eternal and has no beginning, how do we distinguish this eternal object from something that had no beginning and never existed to begin with?

I think I got lost in this one…if something never existed, then why would we have the task of distinguishing it from anything?
I don’t think we need to make these kind of judgements. They are beyond what we need to know as humans. So,while they can be fun and challenging to ponder, in the end, they don’t matter. I trust that we’ve been equipped with the ability to discern that which is critical to us, and if we havent, there isn’t much I can do about it anyway.


And yet you had an experience where you dreamed about something before it happened?
Assuming everything you say is accurate, how could this kind of superluminous experience happen if time cannot be experienced apart from…things happening?

As I said earlier, I don’t have an explanation for my dream. But I’m not sure how the experiece refutes that we experience time through things happening. At no time did I sense time stopping, skipping nor did I feel transported through time, or present in more than one place at the same time. My experience of time did not appear altered to me.

Yes, but you are stating that something has to happen in order to record time. I’m suggesting that things do not need to happen in order to measure time.***
How can we measure time without something happening? Every instrument or method I know of that we use to measure time only does so by tracking a change or occurence. If you know of some other way, let me know, because I honestly do not.***

…Is it possible for laws, like Kepler’s Laws of Gravity, to be sentient?

I think that sentience exists but not in the Laws, as those are merely what humans state that they know about such things, the sentiece would be in the thing itself, not in any way attached to whether or not humans have discovered or defined them.

Then how do you explain your experience which you knew of 18 months before it actually happened?
***I didn’t. I remembered a dream. I did not know that something was going to happen in advance. Those are very different things. I had no psychic experience.

How did you remember the future?

***I did not remember the future. I remembered a dream I had in the past. It is possible that I dreamed the future, but you know how memories of dreams often are, fragmented, unclear. It was not as if I remembered details and could tell you what would happen next, etc.If we want to pursue the significance of this event, then we have to do it properly. I remembered a dream I had in the past. Next we have to determine if the dream was of the future. ***
 
Thanks Nan,

I’ll be rereading that post several times to “absorb” it all!

Luckily…I didn’t happen upon it till morning, when I had a night’s sleep under my belt.

cheddar
 
This thread is incredibly engaging!

I just added this thread to my “favorites” just so that I could re-read it later 😃
 
How did this process start then?

I ask because Big Bang cosmology seems to strongly indicate that the universe did have a beginning.
OK, I’m going to bring out the religion here - Christian style.

The first words God speaks in Genesis are “Let there be Light.” Not some anonymous phosphorescent glow, but LIGHT. Light with all of its qualities of particle and ray. Light bearing energy and heat. Moving light.

Moving light. Light traveling from one place to another. Which means that at that same moment (or perhaps before) God also created Linear Time.

God spoke, and the Big Bang happened.
But, if the expansion of the universe where to actually reach the speed of light, what would happen to the fabric of the universe?
The passage of time in the universe slows and finally stops. The heavens and the earth as we know them come to their end. The last judgment. Hopefully, you have your ticket punched and exit the train on the good side of the tracks.
Then how do you explain your experience which you knew of 18 months before it actually happened?

How did you remember the future?
I also have had these types of dreams many times, especially when I was younger and not quite so anxious about earthly concerns. Sometimes they just showed me what would happen, and sometimes it was a warning that if I followed a chain of events past a certain point something bad would happen.

When I had the dreams I did not know them for what they were, but later when the events transpired in real life I recognized the dream. The same place…the same people around me in exactly the same positions…the same weather…the same pattern of light and shadows… It was kind of a shock. :eek: And when I broke from the chain of events in my dream by bypassing the highway on-ramp, I was left wondering whether the truck I glimpsed in my dream would have really hit me.

Now that I am older and anxious about schedules, responsibilities, and making sure the electric bill gets paid, I seldom have the dreams. But still occasionally…

Throughout history, God has spoken to man through dreams. Perhaps, while I am asleep, relaxed, and my defenses are down, I can reach out my hand to brush my fingertips on the face of God. And in doing so, see just a little glimpse of life outside of time, where past, present, and future are all one.

High Flight

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov’ring there
I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I’ve topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I’ve trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

–Gillespie Magee

Rest easy tonight. Relax and open your mind to the Lord. Put out your hand…

Nan
 
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