What is the nature of the Church?

[Randy_Carson]

I’m not thinking of the four marks of the Church: one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

No one will disagree with these things.

I am interested in whether Christ founded a visible, hierarchical Church as Catholics profess or an “invisible, spiritual communion of all true believers” as Protestants proclaim.

I offer the following as thread chum:

Jesus founded a visible Church
Adapted from “The Necessity of Being Catholic”
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

The Church Jesus Christ founded is a visible communion. This is proven in Matthew 16:17-19, the passage in which Christ promised the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church (meaning that it would always exist). Several factors in the text show he was talking about a visible communion.

First, Jesus made Peter head of this Church (Matt. 16:18), yet Jesus was certainly not making Peter the head of an invisible Church. It is Christ’s own prerogative to be head of the invisible communion of Christians stretching from heaven to earth (Eph. 5:23). Therefore, he must have made Peter the head of a visible, earthly church. (We will not argue here that Jesus made Peter the head; even if one disagrees, the remaining arguments prove our case.)

Second, Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19), which are for use in Church government (compare Isa. 22:22 – the only Old Testament parallel to this verse). But one cannot govern an invisible communion of believers, only a visible one.

Third, Jesus gave Peter the power of binding and loosing (Matt. 16:19), which Matthew 18:17-18 indicates is used in Church discipline. But one cannot exercise Church discipline over an invisible body. Indeed, Matt. 18:17-18 refers it to public excommunication, in which an individual is treated by the church as “a gentile or a tax collector” (that is, as an unbeliever).

Fourth, Jesus explicitly stated that Peter would exercise the power of binding and loosing on earth. This shows his authority is an earthly one, over an earthly Church.

Fifth, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18), meaning that it would never perish. But it would be ridiculous to promise that an invisible Church would not pass out of existence since some of the Church’s members are in heaven and Christ’s heavenly Church cannot pass away by its very nature. Only a visible, earthly communion needs a promise that it will never perish.

There are thus abundant reasons to conclude that the Church Jesus was discussing in Matthew 16:17-19 was a visible communion of believers, and, since only the Catholic Church goes back that far, only it can be the one Christ founded.

+++

Let’s see what responses that attracts. :coffeeread:

 

[Rightlydivide]

Never used the word invisible church. Must be a mainline thing. The word is used in a variety of ways but never with the words invisible or true believers or spiritual communion. Sounds like someone is attaching nonbiblical descriptors to it.

 

[CWBetts]

Never used the word invisible church. Must be a mainline thing. The word is used in a variety of ways but never with the words invisible or true believers or spiritual communion. Sounds like someone is attaching nonbiblical descriptors to it.

The people that add those descriptors tend to be Evangelicals

 

[Rightlydivide]

The people that add those descriptors tend to be Evangelicals

Correction noted and appreciated.

 

[ljubim]

*Remember, the Orthodox are also apostolic. But they haven’t got Peter… Just playing devil’s advocate Congrats for your journey home! There’s no better road to the Church than the Bible. I love all the little miniscule pieces of evidence. Even as a cradle catholic they still pop out and reassure me I’m in the right place

 

[LionHeart777]

Here is a familiar quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch that might help to paint a picture of what the Church is:

In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.

(newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm) (accessed 10/ 04/ 09) (Emphasis mine)

So, I think this might help paint the picture of a Church with a hierarchy, no? According to this early witness if we read his 7 letters, we can see that the Church had Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. This would seem to me to point to one attribute of the Church being visible (even if it was still underground at that time- pun intented)

 

[mdcpensive1]

Here is a familiar quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch that might help to paint a picture of what the Church is:

(newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm

St. Ignatius of Antioch is a very good choice to quote because he was supposed to have known St. John. He probably also knew Sts. Peter and Paul also. He is one who knew first hand the teachings of the apostles and wrote so much of how the Church is organized and structured.
Since the apostles knew that the Church was a combination of those here on earth (the visible Church) and those in Heaven and those waiting, Ignatius writes with this knowledge. He tells all to follow the bishop where they live. He says to be in unity with the Church you must be in unity with the bishop. This is because he was fighting the gnostic heresy and needed to set the record straight because the gnostics didn’t need the bishops.

Christ gave the Church the deposit of faith that Christ said was to be passed on to all the nations. That deposit of living faith was given to the successors of the apostles through the mystery of the “succession” of bishops by the laying on of hands. This is the Matt 18:18 story of the authority and the Luke 10:16 story of the application of the authority. Christ made it possible for the living deposit of faith to be spread with all truth by those bishops in union with each other. This is how the faith spread and was protected from error through the Holy Spirit.

It is important that the bishops be in union with each other for this truth. There have been some that have strayed and it has been a sorry issue but they don’t have the authority then to state what the living deposit of faith really is since they lack the unity. The unity of the bishops is most important. This says that the nature of the Church is one which has bishops, then priests and deacons. At the time of Ignatius, the form of disciplines had been established in the Church with the bishops, priests and deacons. If you find these in your Church then you can be sure this might be the Church Christ established.

Some may say we don’t need these because we have the scriptures. The fact that a church would just use scripture shows the effect of the protestant splintering because scripture does not interpret scripture. The needless divisions caused by multiple scriptural interpretations is a shame on believers in general. The faith that is living from the time of Christ being passed down is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be the truth by the bishops order in the Church.

Why should we pay attention to Ignatius’s writings? It is because he was bishop of the third most important city in the civilized world. St. Peter worked there and Paul traveled there. He was picked for such an important position because of his holiness and knowledge of the faith. It shows from his writings. If you compare his description of the Church at this time and to what is today, you must conclude that it is the Catholic Church which is the visible succession of the living faith Christ has given us for our working our our salvation.
mdcpensive1

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ignatius

“Be subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the Apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D.110, [13,1])

“Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishops presiding in the place of God and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the Apostles.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D. 110, [6,1])

“Those, indeed, who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic; he will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, A.D. 110, [3,2])

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 110, [8,1])

“Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living in the manner not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in His death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore, - and such is your practice, that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ our hope.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Traillians, A.D. 110, [2,1])

“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. Every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled.” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2, [155 A.D.])

**“Although he [Paul] writes to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians for their correction, nevertheless it is shown that there is one Church spread abroad though the whole world.” (Muratorian Fragment, [155 A.D.]) **

Just to remind those who are skeptical of the Early Church Fathers:

Ignatius was a disciple of Polycarp.
Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John.

That is the voice of Apostolic Authority speaking. “There is ONE Church spread throughout the whole world” - not a bunch of independent autonomous churches as many non-Catholics like to claim.

 

[The_Reginator]

The needless divisions caused by multiple scriptural interpretations is a shame on believers in general. The faith that is living from the time of Christ being passed down is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be the truth by the bishops order in the Church.

mdcpensive1

That (in bold) has really bothered me ever since my conversion.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Reginator:

The multiple interpretations of important doctrines in scripture has bothered me also. It could be that there is a sense of pride in all of us that tells us we know what we are talking about that makes us always think we are right and others are wrong. But this goes back to the topic about the nature of the Church and why there even is one and where does it come from.

To me, it seems like God had this plan of bringing us back from the problems resulting from the sin of Adam. We needed to be re-educated in our understanding of our new relationship with Him. Since God doesn’t do anything half way, He chose covenants over contracts to relate to us since this is much more personal. Abraham and the Chosen People was the start of our learning what God was all about and what this relationship was to mean. Each proceeding covenant was fulfilled and replaced by a new one until the New and everlasting one instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.

During this time of history, the concept of “Church” was growing from the “gatherings” (kahal) of the Hebrew People through the writings in the NT scripture of the “ecclesia” in Matthew. The Davidic Covenant was to be the People of God showing the nations what it is to know God and learn of God. If they want to know who God is then all they must do is learn and observe the Jewish People. This is fulfilled by the instructions in the New Covenant to go out and preach the gospel to all nations.

The object has always been in Incarnational Theology to lead all people back to God. The Incarnation shows the presence of God in both this world and the next. But for God to do the work of leading in this world He used the Church as His body, Mystical you might say. This means the Church is the outgrowth of the Covenants of the Chosen People as it developed to the Incarnational entrance of God with us.

mdcpensive1

 

[pismopal]

Ignatius

“Be subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the Apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D.110, [13,1])

“Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishops presiding in the place of God and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the Apostles.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D. 110, [6,1])

“Those, indeed, who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic; he will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, A.D. 110, [3,2])

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 110, [8,1])

“Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living in the manner not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in His death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore, - and such is your practice, that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ our hope.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Traillians, A.D. 110, [2,1])

“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. Every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled.” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2, [155 A.D.])

**“Although he [Paul] writes to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians for their correction, nevertheless it is shown that there is one Church spread abroad though the whole world.” (Muratorian Fragment, [155 A.D.]) **

Just to remind those who are skeptical of the Early Church Fathers:

Ignatius was a disciple of Polycarp.
Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John.

That is the voice of Apostolic Authority speaking. “There is ONE Church spread throughout the whole world” - not a bunch of independent autonomous churches as many non-Catholics like to claim.

Wonderful post…thank you

 

[Randy_Carson]

Wonderful post…thank you

:tiphat: