What is the next step for the regularization of the SSPX

[Micael]

I’m quite interested in attending the EF Mass in my area, there is only one diocesan Mass offered early Sunday Mornings…I’d just like to attend a non-Sunday Mass offered at a nearby SSPX church which offers more flexibility.

I’m not clear how allowable it is to attend. They say they have a picture of the Pope, and are in full communion with the Pope(?), yet admit their masses aren’t offered with the acceptance of the local Bishop.

Now, I’m aware Pope Benedict XVI made it more accessible for priest to offer the Mass in EF without the need for permission from the local Bishop, however thats for Priest in regular/normal status(or whatever the word is) with the Vatican.

Thus my question is what is needed for the regularization of the SSPX status with the Holy See? Its painfully sad having to deal with this issue. What needs to happen next?

 

[Big_Feet]

The SSPX must agree to what Peter (the Pope) asks of them in obedience. This they still refuse to do. Adamantly so.

 

[TRH1292]

I don’t think there is going to be a next step anytime soon. Things have drastically fallen apart and are perhaps headed towards a full on schism. They have basically accused Pope Francis of heresy, so, it’s not a very positive situation.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I’m quite interested in attending the EF Mass in my area, there is only one diocesan Mass offered early Sunday Mornings…I’d just like to attend a non-Sunday Mass offered at a nearby SSPX church which offers more flexibility.

I’m not clear how allowable it is to attend. They say they have a picture of the Pope, and are in full communion with the Pope(?), yet admit their masses aren’t offered with the acceptance of the local Bishop.

Now, I’m aware Pope Benedict XVI made it more accessible for priest to offer the Mass in EF without the need for permission from the local Bishop, however thats for Priest in regular/normal status(or whatever the word is) with the Vatican.

Thus my question is what is needed for the regularization of the SSPX status with the Holy See? Its painfully sad having to deal with this issue. What needs to happen next?

As the others have said, the situation is not good right now. I recommend that you attend the approved diocesean Mass - EF or OF and offer up your schedule for the benefit of the Church as a whole.

 

[Micael]

Ms. Sally, I go to OF Mass every Sunday, didn’t plan on changing that. And if I did for the EF, I’d be attending the FSSP mass instead. My point is that, the that Mass is offered, but once in the Morning at quite a distance away and the SSPX Mass is available at various times and not just on Sundays (which I never planned on attending b/c precisely I do not want such a Mass as replacement for the diocesan Mass whether in the OF or EF).

My biggest issue, after calling that local SSPX church was that perhaps deceptively or not the individual I spoke to sounded extremely respectful regarding the Holy Father, and honest regarding the local Bishop not providing an outright approval for their Masses. Hence, my profound intrigue regarding this matter.

Could it be that not all SSPX churches are in agreement…and some are leaning more toward full communion (that individual actually said they where in full communion which I think is not exactly the case) then others within the SSPX.

 

[TRH1292]

Well, the FSSP itself came from priests that were apart of the SSPX once but jumped ship when things got crazy.

 

[Micael]

Ms. Sally, as for offering up… I offer up my deep desire for reverence to the Almighty every time I observe the outright liturgical abuses seen in typical Ordinary Form Masses. (I believe the OF can be observed reverently though in reality it is very rarely seen - and abuses occur at some level even at the best Churches.)

The everyday OF Catholics and Charismatics always say we need to be more open minded. The problem is that they do not see how “open minded” we are tolerating their preferences perpetually, yet when we ask for silence and/or the more traditional they do not have the “open mind” to accept such an “alternative”…PARTICULARLY the older pre-Vatican II Catholics which usually go bonkers at such a thought.

 

[JReducation]

I’m quite interested in attending the EF Mass in my area, there is only one diocesan Mass offered early Sunday Mornings…I’d just like to attend a non-Sunday Mass offered at a nearby SSPX church which offers more flexibility.

I’m not clear how allowable it is to attend. They say they have a picture of the Pope, and are in full communion with the Pope(?), yet admit their masses aren’t offered with the acceptance of the local Bishop.

Now, I’m aware Pope Benedict XVI made it more accessible for priest to offer the Mass in EF without the need for permission from the local Bishop, however thats for Priest in regular/normal status(or whatever the word is) with the Vatican.

Thus my question is what is needed for the regularization of the SSPX status with the Holy See? Its painfully sad having to deal with this issue. What needs to happen next?

Let’s take this in baby steps.

Diocesan priests may celebrate the EF mass without permission, but with some rules. It’s a misconception that they can just get up one morning and change the 11:00 mass to an EF. That part is not true. The pastor and bishop still have control over the schedule in a parish. If the priest is scheduled to say two masses that Sunday, he may not celebrate a third without permission, just so that he can celebrate the EF. He does not have this right. Nor does any priest have the right to change the parish schedule without the pastor’s permission. The pastor does not have the right to change the schedule without a good reason. Taking out a mass that accommodates 800 to schedule an EF mass for 50 is not reasonable.

Now, if there were a stable number of people who want the EF and there is a slot that can be assigned to it, there is no need to ask the bishop for permission, ONLY if the priest is secular. If the priest his a consecrated religious, he must have the permission of his superior.

The other point is that some people think that SP made the EF a right. It did not make it a right. SP is not Canon Law nor did the pope say that it trumps the law. The law says that the faithful (you and I) have the right to receive the sacraments. It does not specify in what form. It can be the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form. It can even be in another rite that is not the Roman Rite. It simply means that if you are not legally barred from the sacraments, you have the right to mass and communion.

As far as the EF is concerned, the EF itself has the right to exist. Secular priests have the right to celebrate it without asking for permission. The same priests do not have the right to change things in a parish without the pastor’s consent or the bishop’s, if the case merits it.

In religious orders, the law of the order decides if the priest can celebrate the EF or not. The superior is the final and highest interpreter of that law (second to the pope). But SP leaves it up to the Major Superior. For example, in my community, we have one brother who is a priest and knows how to celebrate the EF. But I never grant permission for him to celebrate it for laymen. He can do it for us, but not for the laity.

There is another issue with the EF. No layman who supports the SSPX or any group that has a conflict with Rome can ask for it. This came in the document that followed SP> You have to be a layman who is not an SSPX supporter.

This gets tricky. You may attend mass at an SSPX chapel as long as you do not agree with them. The minute that you align yourself with them and their demands, any bishop can call you on having a schismatic mindset. Observe that we’re talking about a mindset. This is not the same as being in schism. The SSPX is not in schism. It is not a religion of its own and has never been condemned of heresy or apostasy. The Church’s contention with the SSPX is sophistry. This gets into a whole argument over ecclesiology.

This takes us to the next part of your question. What will it take to bring the SSPX into full communion?

Well, the first thing would be that the Society has to stop making negative comments about the pope and the Church. If the last report on Rorate Coeli is accurately translated, saying that the pope is making things worse and that one is glad that one did not reconcile with Rome, will not do anything to endear the SSPX with the Holy Father. Those comments don’t help.

Pope Benedict said that the Society has to accept Vatican II, its documents and the CCC as authoritative and totally error free.

The SSPX cannot make itself the authority on tradition. It has to accept that only the Holy See can call people out. The SSPX wants the freedom to call people out and correct people. The Vatican says NO. No other group in the Church has that freedom.

I have to give the SSPX credit for one thing. It’s being honest. It’s saying that if it does not have this freedom and it won’t be part of this Church. It will wait. Whereas other groups don’t express this in public, but just run their mouths and pretend that they are faithful. That’s dishonest.

 

[JReducation]

Currently, the SSPX is celebrating sacraments illegally. The laymen who attend the SSPX need to take the law more seriously. The mindset that “it’s illicit, but valid; therefore, it’s OK” is not OK. If something is illegal, it’s not OK to do it.

The priests of the SSPX do not have legal permission to celebrate any sacrament, not even mass. They are suspended. Because they are suspended, there are times when their absolution is invalid as are the marriages they witness. The local bishop must give permission for a priest to absolve and to witness a marriage. The Church grants permission when there is the reasonable belief that the penitent is in a life threatening situation or when the penitent does not know that the priest cannot absolve. If the priest and penitent both know that the priest cannot absolve and they go through with a confession and absolution, there is a problem here. The chances are pretty good that there is no valid absolution. This has to be considered by both priest and penitent. It’s very serious.

This means that those involved, mostly the priests, will need to submit to the authority of Rome and whomever Rome places above the SSPX. It looked like Rome was going to give the SSPX a prelature and that it would name one of their bishops as prelate. This fell apart at the last minute. Pope Benedict threw a wrench into the wheel and the SSPX backed off. The wrench was that the SSPX back down and

a. Accept that Vatican II is error free

b. Accept the the OF is error free, is valid and is legal

c. Accept that the CCC is error free

d. Accept that only the pope can interpret tradition, not the Society

e. Accept whomever the pope appoints as the prelate over the Society

f. Give up a certain number of chapels ( can’t remember what percentage)

g. Agree not to enter any diocese without the local bishop’s permission

Basically, agree to function as does the FSSP or Opus Dei.

 

[Micael]

Thank you so much Br. JR.

Excellent!

I will continue to pray for unity not only regarding this matter but global unity particularly from the East- the EO and Oriental Orthodox…and certainly for more humility among all parties.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Ms. Sally, as for offering up… I offer up my deep desire for reverence to the Almighty every time I observe the outright liturgical abuses seen in typical Ordinary Form Masses. (I believe the OF can be observed reverently though in reality it is very rarely seen - and abuses occur at some level even at the best Churches.)

The everyday OF Catholics and Charismatics always say we need to be more open minded. The problem is that they do not see how “open minded” we are tolerating their preferences perpetually, yet when we ask for silence and/or the more traditional they do not have the “open mind” to accept such an “alternative”…PARTICULARLY the older pre-Vatican II Catholics which usually go bonkers at such a thought.

I am very sorry that your local Mass is not reverant. We are blessed here to have beautiful OF Masses, so I do not feel the need of an EF for that reason. I will add my prayers to yours for reverant, correct liturgies everywhere.

 

[bben15]

Let’s take this in baby steps.

Diocesan priests may celebrate the EF mass without permission, but with some rules. It’s a misconception that they can just get up one morning and change the 11:00 mass to an EF. That part is not true. The pastor and bishop still have control over the schedule in a parish. If the priest is scheduled to say two masses that Sunday, he may not celebrate a third without permission, just so that he can celebrate the EF. He does not have this right. Nor does any priest have the right to change the parish schedule without the pastor’s permission. The pastor does not have the right to change the schedule without a good reason. Taking out a mass that accommodates 800 to schedule an EF mass for 50 is not reasonable.

Now, if there were a stable number of people who want the EF and there is a slot that can be assigned to it, there is no need to ask the bishop for permission, ONLY if the priest is secular. If the priest his a consecrated religious, he must have the permission of his superior.

The other point is that some people think that SP made the EF a right. It did not make it a right. SP is not Canon Law nor did the pope say that it trumps the law. The law says that the faithful (you and I) have the right to receive the sacraments. It does not specify in what form. It can be the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form. It can even be in another rite that is not the Roman Rite. It simply means that if you are not legally barred from the sacraments, you have the right to mass and communion.

As far as the EF is concerned, the EF itself has the right to exist. Secular priests have the right to celebrate it without asking for permission. The same priests do not have the right to change things in a parish without the pastor’s consent or the bishop’s, if the case merits it.

In religious orders, the law of the order decides if the priest can celebrate the EF or not. The superior is the final and highest interpreter of that law (second to the pope). But SP leaves it up to the Major Superior. For example, in my community, we have one brother who is a priest and knows how to celebrate the EF. But I never grant permission for him to celebrate it for laymen. He can do it for us, but not for the laity.

There is another issue with the EF. No layman who supports the SSPX or any group that has a conflict with Rome can ask for it. This came in the document that followed SP> You have to be a layman who is not an SSPX supporter.

This gets tricky. You may attend mass at an SSPX chapel as long as you do not agree with them. The minute that you align yourself with them and their demands, any bishop can call you on having a schismatic mindset. Observe that we’re talking about a mindset. This is not the same as being in schism. The SSPX is not in schism. It is not a religion of its own and has never been condemned of heresy or apostasy. The Church’s contention with the SSPX is sophistry. This gets into a whole argument over ecclesiology.

This takes us to the next part of your question. What will it take to bring the SSPX into full communion?

Well, the first thing would be that the Society has to stop making negative comments about the pope and the Church. If the last report on Rorate Coeli is accurately translated, saying that the pope is making things worse and that one is glad that one did not reconcile with Rome, will not do anything to endear the SSPX with the Holy Father. Those comments don’t help.

Pope Benedict said that the Society has to accept Vatican II, its documents and the CCC as authoritative and totally error free.

The SSPX cannot make itself the authority on tradition. It has to accept that only the Holy See can call people out. The SSPX wants the freedom to call people out and correct people. The Vatican says NO. No other group in the Church has that freedom.

I have to give the SSPX credit for one thing. It’s being honest. It’s saying that if it does not have this freedom and it won’t be part of this Church. It will wait. Whereas other groups don’t express this in public, but just run their mouths and pretend that they are faithful. That’s dishonest.

Does a pastor need permission from the bishop if there isn’t a stable group of people who desire it, in order to schedule an EF Mass?

 

[JReducation]

Does a pastor need permission from the bishop if there isn’t a stable group of people who desire it, in order to schedule an EF Mass?

Not if he has space on the parish schedule. He cannot inconvenience the parishioners. But if it can be done without causing an inconvenience and he is a diocesan priest, he simply has to inform the bishop. Bishops must always know what’s going on in their parishes and they have a right to ask questions about changes. But this rule applies to everything, not just the EF.

 

[thistle]

I’m quite interested in attending the EF Mass in my area, there is only one diocesan Mass offered early Sunday Mornings…I’d just like to attend a non-Sunday Mass offered at a nearby SSPX church which offers more flexibility.

I’m not clear how allowable it is to attend. They say they have a picture of the Pope, and are in full communion with the Pope(?), yet admit their masses aren’t offered with the acceptance of the local Bishop.

Now, I’m aware Pope Benedict XVI made it more accessible for priest to offer the Mass in EF without the need for permission from the local Bishop, however thats for Priest in regular/normal status(or whatever the word is) with the Vatican.

Thus my question is what is needed for the regularization of the SSPX status with the Holy See? Its painfully sad having to deal with this issue. What needs to happen next?

The SSPX must repent and be obedient to Rome. Unfortunately for them and the rest of the Church pride is getting in their way!

 

[giuseppeTO]

Ms. Sally, I go to OF Mass every Sunday, didn’t plan on changing that. And if I did for the EF, I’d be attending the FSSP mass instead. My point is that, the that Mass is offered, but once in the Morning at quite a distance away and the SSPX Mass is available at various times and not just on Sundays (which I never planned on attending b/c precisely I do not want such a Mass as replacement for the diocesan Mass whether in the OF or EF).

My biggest issue, after calling that local SSPX church was that perhaps deceptively or not the individual I spoke to sounded extremely respectful regarding the Holy Father, and honest regarding the local Bishop not providing an outright approval for their Masses. Hence, my profound intrigue regarding this matter.

Could it be that not all SSPX churches are in agreement…and some are leaning more toward full communion (that individual actually said they where in full communion which I think is not exactly the case) then others within the SSPX.

Since Francis is the Pope and your Bishop the bishop, I am puzzled as to why you expected disrespect?

 

[giuseppeTO]

Currently, the SSPX is celebrating sacraments illegally. The laymen who attend the SSPX need to take the law more seriously. The mindset that “it’s illicit, but valid; therefore, it’s OK” is not OK. If something is illegal, it’s not OK to do it.

The priests of the SSPX do not have legal permission to celebrate any sacrament, not even mass. They are suspended. Because they are suspended, there are times when their absolution is invalid as are the marriages they witness. The local bishop must give permission for a priest to absolve and to witness a marriage. The Church grants permission when there is the reasonable belief that the penitent is in a life threatening situation or when the penitent does not know that the priest cannot absolve. If the priest and penitent both know that the priest cannot absolve and they go through with a confession and absolution, there is a problem here. The chances are pretty good that there is no valid absolution. This has to be considered by both priest and penitent. It’s very serious.

This means that those involved, mostly the priests, will need to submit to the authority of Rome and whomever Rome places above the SSPX. It looked like Rome was going to give the SSPX a prelature and that it would name one of their bishops as prelate. This fell apart at the last minute. Pope Benedict threw a wrench into the wheel and the SSPX backed off. The wrench was that the SSPX back down and

a. Accept that Vatican II is error free

b. Accept the the OF is error free, is valid and is legal

c. Accept that the CCC is error free

d. Accept that only the pope can interpret tradition, not the Society

e. Accept whomever the pope appoints as the prelate over the Society

f. Give up a certain number of chapels ( can’t remember what percentage)

g. Agree not to enter any diocese without the local bishop’s permission

Basically, agree to function as does the FSSP or Opus Dei.

I’ve never heard of your (f). Source?

 

[JReducation]

I’ve never heard of your (f). Source?

Actually, I never heard it from the Vatican. It does not mean that it was not part of the conditions. It just means that I did not hear from the Vatican. I read it on an SSPX site where one of their priests was up in arms about this.

 

[Micael]

Since Francis is the Pope and your Bishop the bishop, I am puzzled as to why you expected disrespect?

I never said I expected disrespect. I expected perhaps some point of disagreement, but that does not realy translate into disrespect. What was surprising was the more than expected …at least what I felt as sense of warmth, respect and reaching out for more unity with the Pope particularly speaking of Benedict XVI. I did expect some form of disagreement because, at least some SPPXers voice there disagreement with “Consiliar” Popes, the Novus Ordo Mass,etc.

 

[Big_Feet]

Since Francis is the Pope and your Bishop the bishop, I am puzzled as to why you expected disrespect?

Well, I would say there already is an immense amount of disrespect for both Pope Francis and any local bishop in communion with him by the SSPX. The SSPX are celebrating the holy sacrifice of the mass illicitly and attempting to celebrate other sacraments invalidly within the jurisdictions of these validly elected and appointed Church officials.

The SSPX needs to rid themselves of their pride, then understand and accept obedience to the appropriate hierarchy of the church put in place by God, Himself, including the current successor to Peter and Vicar of Christ, Pope Francis.

 

[JReducation]

Let us be gentle in correcting each other.

Sometimes, we can be to harsh. When we do this, correction becomes a scolding rather than a call to reconsider one’s actions and thoughts.

As one who is a superior, I have had to learn the hard way that when I correct my brothers, I must serve them as a guide. Meaning, that rather than call scold and demand, I must encourage them to rethink something and find a way to correct a false step, if they have take one.