What is the only feasible way out of the current crisis?

[mchale]

If he’s motivated enough, he’d learn it. Unfortunately they’re not enough real teachers anymore.

Latin is not exactly an easy language to learn either (I spent 3 years working on it.). Granted Liturgical Latin is a lot easier than Cicero, but learning all the inflections is enough to drive you crazy.

–
Bill

 

[ProVobis]

Latin is not exactly an easy language to learn either (I spent 3 years working on it.). Granted Liturgical Latin is a lot easier than Cicero, but learning all the inflections is enough to drive you crazy.
Bill

Actually English isn’t exactly the easiest language to learn. I know because English was not my first language and I’m still trying to learn it.

But as long as my living depends on it, I’m motivated to keep learning it.

 

[mchale]

Actually English isn’t exactly the easiest language to learn. I know because English was not my first language and I’m still trying to learn it.

But as long as my living depends on it, I’m motivated to keep learning it.

And you will note that there are not many people advocating English the Universal Language of the Church.

–
Bill

 

[ProVobis]

And you will note that there are not many people advocating English the Universal Language of the Church.

–
Bill

Good point. Doesn’t seem that way on this and the L&S forum, though. They don’t say it but when they say the OF it’s the English OF they’re talking about, not realizing that there are probably a few hundred vernaculars the Vatican has to worry about.

 

[mchale]

Good point. Doesn’t seem that way on this and the L&S forum, though. They don’t say it but when they say the OF it’s the English OF they’re talking about, not realizing that there are probably a few hundred vernaculars the Vatican has to worry about.

More than that most likely… though the most common would be in the few hundred range.

–
Bill

 

[Layman]

Good point. Doesn’t seem that way on this and the L&S forum, though. They don’t say it but when they say the OF it’s the English OF they’re talking about, not realizing that there are probably a few hundred vernaculars the Vatican has to worry about.

I didn’t think of this. A few hundred other translations to process and worry aboout their fidelity to the original. Must make for a lot more work.

 

[Layman]

The dumbing down of society is highly exaggerated. I haven’t seen the exam you are referring to, but I would suspect that it probably was not an exam that a working class student would have been given. It certainly wasn’t the standard of education that was common in Ireland or the United States at the time…

Even during English occupation, in Penal times, Catholics could still get a smattering of classical education in ‘hedge schools’. Nowadays, with all our resources and compulsory, subsidised education, ‘kids’ of 18 are leaving school without being able to read, write and do maths properly. It’s a known problem here in the U.K. Public education is heavily politicised and there’s a ton of paperwork for teachers to attend to. Rote learning is not politically correct. ‘Child-centred education’ is the norm.

Result: a generation that employers are having to educate once they leave school. Which is too late for many of them. Your mammy, daddy and school may be indulgent but the workplace isn’t. Can’t write a formal letter or do secondary school Maths, you say? Next candiate, please!

In addition, lets remember that even 12 year olds now understand things that an Edwardian 12 year old couldn’t have even imagined. When I was a twelve year old, I knew about Galaxies, the Big Bang and Relativity… even a scientist with a PhD didn’t know about those things at the turn of the 20th century.

Well, how could a 12 year old Edwardian kid know about things which weren’t even discovered or broadcast at that time? The Big Bang, Relativity? Come on!

I saw that exam paper. Someone with a standard, state-subsidised 21st Century education could not pass it. The questions were along the lines of: “Draw an outline map of Norway, mark in its major ports and describe its chief exports”, except, possibly, a bit more difficult. Quite intimidating.

 

[ProVobis]

I am going to say something that is going to shock some people here, but the Church never had a formal moment when it switched to Latin.

I think you’re right on this. I imagine the consolidation of the Bibles of the old Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and other languages into the Latin Vulgate had a lot to do with more acceptance of Latin in Africa and other continents where the Mass flourished but there is evidence the Latin in the liturgy goes back at least to the first century.

 

[mchale]

Even during English occupation, in Penal times, Catholics could still get a smattering of classical education in ‘hedge schools’. Nowadays, with all our resources and compulsory, subsidised education, ‘kids’ of 18 are leaving school without being able to read, write and do maths properly. It’s a known problem here in the U.K. Public education is heavily politicised and there’s a ton of paperwork for teachers to attend to. Rote learning is not politically correct. ‘Child-centred education’ is the norm.

Result: a generation that employers are having to educate once they leave school. Which is too late for many of them. Your mammy, daddy and school may be indulgent but the workplace isn’t. Can’t write a formal letter or do secondary school Maths, you say? Next candiate, please!

I am not trying to defend the current educational system. I think it needs vast improvement. Though, I suspect how bad it is tends to focus on the worst of the schools rather than the best of them.

BTW, rote learning is fine for certain things, but it is not the end all and be all of an education. I have yet to meet a good engineer or computer programmer who learned how to do their job by mere rote learning.

Well, how could a 12 year old Edwardian kid know about things which weren’t even discovered or broadcast at that time? The Big Bang, Relativity? Come on!

But that is my point. The increase in scientific and engineering knowledge since the early 20th century has been enormous. Rightfully, formal education has become less about learning latin grammar and more about being creative thinkers who can find the information when they need it.

I saw that exam paper. Someone with a standard, state-subsidised 21st Century education could not pass it. The questions were along the lines of: “Draw an outline map of Norway, mark in its major ports and describe its chief exports”, except, possibly, a bit more difficult. Quite intimidating.

And mostly completely useless. I didn’t have a state education, and I assure you I know mathematics well into the University Level (I am a computer professional by trade and took quite a few advanced Math classes in University). Unless you happen to work directly in international trade, when was the last time you needed to know the chief export products of a country?

Now, what is useful is someone who knows how to get that information quickly if it was needed.

–
Bill

 

[Layman]

Well, Bill, I beg to differ. Their education was appropriate to survival in their time, a time of empire. Ours seems to pander to pupils. I caught the tail-end of a classical education myself and actually witnessed what I believe was the beginning of child-centred education in my school. Also, in retrospect, the introduction of post-Vat II religious education.

I am afraid, now, to ask my young relatives about what they’re being taught in school in Ireland.

Any teacher reading this: consider that there might be a gap in the market for a school which teaches the Baltimore Catechism and learning by mnemonics.
Which focuses away from liberal-arts-subjects-as-points-collectors.
Which encourages study of the sciences.
Which is privately funded, to avoid as much state bureaucracy as possible.
Which prepares children for the International Baccalaureate or whatever the highest standard is.
Which also teaches one handyman skill, according to aptitude, to each pupil, to keep them in hard times.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Well, Bill, I beg to differ. Their education was appropriate to survival in their time, a time of empire. Ours seems to pander to pupils. I caught the tail-end of a classical education myself and actually witnessed what I believe was the beginning of child-centred education in my school. Also, in retrospect, the introduction of post-Vat II religious education.

I am afraid, now, to ask my young relatives about what they’re being taught in school in Ireland.

Any teacher reading this: consider that there might be a gap in the market for a school which teaches the Baltimore Catechism and learning by mnemonics.
Which focuses away from liberal-arts-subjects-as-points-collectors.
Which encourages study of the sciences.
Which is privately funded, to avoid as much state bureaucracy as possible.
Which prepares children for the International Baccalaureate or whatever the highest standard is.
Which also teaches one handyman skill, according to aptitude, to each pupil, to keep them in hard times.

Well, you’re right. Some of the things they’re teaching now at government schools is pretty pathetic.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

By the way, I believe this video pretty much sums up how bad things have gotten since Vatican II. It’s a video of girls and a few men dancing at a Christmas Novus Ordo Mass. In this video, pay attention to two important things. 1.- The way the women are dancing. 2.- How they are dressed. They’re wearing short skirts and some of them appear to be wearing high boots.

youtube.com/v/VgMEP-I4tDs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0

 

[Fuerza]

This thread is 20 pages long and I haven’t read the whole thing, so someone may have already said something similar. I think that there are at least 4 things necessary to fix the problem:

1. Better catechesis among the laity, and the clergy in some instances
2. Mutual education with regards to both forms of the Mass
3. Wider availability of the EF
4. A “cleaning up” of the OF

With regard to the last part, I’d like to see specifically the following in all Sunday/Holy Day OF Masses:

1. Use of the Roman Canon as the only Eucharistic prayer
2. The 1962 offertory as the only Offertory Prayer
3. Requirement that the Kyrie be in Greek, and that the Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and Institution Narrative/Consecration be in Latin
4. Requirement that the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei be sung or chanted if a cantor, choir, or schola is present.
5. Requirement that the Offertory and Communion hymns be traditional Latin hymns or chants (the entrance and recessional could still be chosen from popular vernacular hymns)
6. Communion while kneeling and on the tongue, with only deacons, priests, or bishops distributing
7. Restoration of the prayers at the foot of the alter, Asperges, and the Final Gospel
8. Homilies that focused on explaining the scripture readings or emphasizing important aspects of doctrine or morality

As far as I’m concerned, the general format of the OF could remain as long as these changes were in place.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, you’re right. Some of the things they’re teaching now at government schools is pretty pathetic.

And the problem is that the students become the future teachers which propagate the patheticness. The blind lead the blind which lead other blind.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

And the problem is that the students become the future teachers which propagate the patheticness. The blind lead the blind which lead other blind.

You’re right.

 

[CradleCath]

Silly question from a new Catholic. What is the main difference between Ordinary Form and EF. I understand EF is in Latin, correct. What is the other differences? I have never jeen to a Mass if Latin.

The MAIN difference in the Tridentine Mass (TLM. or EF.) & the Novus Ordo Mass is the theology behind them. The TLM. is a Mass for sinful people who seek, through the sacrifice of Christ re-presented in an unbloody manner, to gain or regain the favor of God.

“And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner, the holy Synod teaches… this sacrifice is truly propitiatory…. The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.”(Council of Trent Session 22, Chapter 2)

The key word here is propitiatory. The purpose of the Mass of the Ages is to recognize the guilt incurred by our daily sins, to face the horror that was Christ’s death & to worship & adore the God Who redeemed us paying such a great price, His only Son. The TLM’s focus is on the Sacrifice made at Calvary on the first Good Friday, while the focus of the Novus Ordo Mass is on the Last Supper, a commual meal, during which we shake hands, nod or actually speak aloud to our friends.

Today’s Catholic cannot seem to imagine a God Who would need to be appeased for our sins…a God Who is so Righteous that His anger & sorrow demanded such a great Sacrifice & Whose abiding LOVE for mankind has so much depth that He sent His own Son to redeem us.

If I were to be asked about the 3 things that make these Masses so different, right at the top of the list would be the humility I see in the priest of the TLM. He has the lowly duty of the centurion…guarding the Sanctuary (safe place) from profanation. Every single time he says this Mass, He spends the first part of it praying to be worthy to even proceed to the Altar (prayers at the Foot of The Altar), must say his own personal confiteor in front of God & the laity, beats his breast as he repeats the Mea Culpa (through MY fault), etc.,etc.

Why would someone want to attend a Mass that you could not understand?

 

[Justin_Mee]

The MAIN difference in the Tridentine Mass (TLM. or EF.) & the Novus Ordo Mass is the theology behind them. The TLM. is a Mass for sinful people who seek, through the sacrifice of Christ re-presented in an unbloody manner, to gain or regain the favor of God.

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;6639863:

Thank you. Now, I must attend a Latin Mass. I am a traditionalist in most things and I know I would like this form of Mass. I wonder it there is on in the Indianapolis area?

Good for you. At least give it a try. I found this parish in Indianapolis, if it’s not close enough, I’ll bet a phone call to the parish would help you locate one that is available nearer to you.

holyrosaryindy.org/latin.html

 

[ProVobis]

Thank you. Now, I must attend a Latin Mass. I am a traditionalist in most things and I know I would like this form of Mass. I wonder it there is on in the Indianapolis area?

INDIANAPOLIS Archdiocese Batesville Saint Louis Catholic Church 1st & 3rd Sundays: 5:00 PM

  Indianapolis  Holy Rosary Parish  W D  Sunday: 9:30 AM

Mon - Fri, 12:00 Noon; Wed, Fri, also 5:45 PM ; Sat: 9:00 AM

  Oak Forest  St. Cecilia  W D  Sunday: 7:30 & 10:30 AM; Holy Days, 7:00 AM & 7:00 PM

Mon, Noon; Tue, Fri 7:00 PM; Wed, Th, 7:30 AM; Sat 8:30 AM

 

[Justin_Mee]

INDIANAPOLIS Archdiocese Batesville Saint Louis Catholic Church 1st & 3rd Sundays: 5:00 PM

  Indianapolis  Holy Rosary Parish  W D  Sunday: 9:30 AM

Mon - Fri, 12:00 Noon; Wed, Fri, also 5:45 PM ; Sat: 9:00 AM

  Oak Forest  St. Cecilia  W D  Sunday: 7:30 & 10:30 AM; Holy Days, 7:00 AM & 7:00 PM

Mon, Noon; Tue, Fri 7:00 PM; Wed, Th, 7:30 AM; Sat 8:30 AM

Thank you again…