What is the only feasible way out of the current crisis?

[At_Trent]

I don’t know what you mean. The ATTITUDE of others keeps me from attending the EF, but not BECAUSE of the EF, as I said. It’s because I’d be with a group of people who would gladly see the Mass I love (and which brought me into the Church) abrogated (for example). It would be rather like someone calling my mother a whore. I’m not apt to want to associate much with such a person, am I, realistically? Do I embrace the EF? I regard it as a venerable and beloved rite of the Church, which should be provided to stable communities that want it. If it were offered in the vernacular, I would probably attend, as it’s prose is beautiful. I myself, however, prefer the OF.

No attitudes at OF Masses ? And the attitudes at the EF would not matter once they stripped it of it’s character by discarding Latin ?

You are killing me.

 

[Lormar]

I don’t know what you mean. The ATTITUDE of others keeps me from attending the EF, but not BECAUSE of the EF, as I said. It’s because I’d be with a group of people who would gladly see the Mass I love (and which brought me into the Church) abrogated (for example). It would be rather like someone calling my mother a whore. I’m not apt to want to associate much with such a person, am I, realistically? Do I embrace the EF? I regard it as a venerable and beloved rite of the Church, which should be provided to stable communities that want it. If it were offered in the vernacular, I would probably attend, as it’s prose is beautiful. I myself, however, prefer the OF.

Kirk,

I’m only writing this to show you that it is a two way street.

That’s exactly how I feel when I go to the OF - the same way you do when you go to the EF.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No attitudes at OF Masses ? And the attitudes at the EF would not matter once they stripped it of it’s character by discarding Latin ?

You are killing me.

A) I’ve been a Catholic for 22 years. I have NEVER, not once, heard anything negative said about what we now call the EF in the context of the Mass (I’ve heard older Catholics who’ve said they liked the “changes,” but they didn’t disparge the old Mass).

B) Language is a vehicle. There is nothing inherently sacred about Latin. The character of the EF would not be changed in the least (it has, in the past, been offered in the vernacular).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Kirk,

I’m only writing this to show you that it is a two way street.

That’s exactly how I feel when I go to the OF - the same way you do when you go to the EF.

Um, you have people actually and verbally denigrate the EF? You’ve heard a priest call the EF “an abomination?” Really?

 

[ProVobis]

The ATTITUDE of others keeps me from attending the EF, but not BECAUSE of the EF, as I said. It’s because I’d be with a group of people who would gladly see the Mass I love (and which brought me into the Church) abrogated (for example).

Looks like the old bait and switch game is in play here. Some who converted in the late 50’s probably thought the same of the progressive crowd which attempted to destroy the ONLY Mass they knew and had brought them into the Church. The writer would be better off just sticking to what he feels comfortable with as long as he still has it and not waste time trying to change what he obviously doesn’t know too much about.

 

[Lormar]

Um, you have people actually and verbally denigrate the EF? You’ve heard a priest call the EF “an abomination?” Really?

Ummmm, yes.

You have only been a Catholic 22 years you say? I’ve been one almost sixty years.

Where were you in the sixties and seventies? Were you born yet?

 

[Lormar]

So let’s see if a pattern is emerging here.

The OF attendees can do no wrong.

The EF attendees can do no good.

 

[ljubim]

I agree. But the return to the TLM will occur out of free will, NOT! forced like the New Mass was. To force them to abandon all they know is doing THE SAME THING they did to us.

It’s already happening… as soon as the older generation, a few of whom have kept up the Latin, has passed, it will be far easier for the younger ones to move in and ask for the Traditional Mass. What we must remember is that those who like the liberal Masses don’t care enough to fight, at least in younger generations. They don’t pray to keep their ways. That’s where the Traditionals have got them

I really do understand the sentiments of those who want a Papal Mandate to eliminate the OF. For me it comes whenever I pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy… I don’t want God to have mercy, I really want Him to do something. I feel like the Jews who were crying out in anguish for God to act right before Jesus came.

Where a Papal Mandate would come in handy is to give the bishops a timeline, say ten years, to have at least half of the parishes in their diocese with the option of the EF. And severe consequences if not followed. Once the secret of the TLM is out, that will be the beginning of change.

Who was it that said the Church would have to be small, devout, and persecuted to survive the upcoming age? I really see that in the TLM… the little parish I go to that says it truly does feel like the little communities in old Rome in the slums on the poor side of the Tiber. People are truly happy, truly Catholic, and we’re like stragglers who have just escaped from hurricane debris stunned that we’ve found a place to be at peace.

At this parish yesterday, I met a little boy, James, who had a scapular swinging around his neck, and after he told me his name the first thing he said was that he’s going to be an altar boy. Apologies, but I just don’t see that sort of simple faith in kids at my normal OF parish. Later James was struggling trying to turn a cross on a chain into a bracelet so he could look at the cross whenever he wanted.

This kind of faith and peace is the future of the Church. NOT guitar bands playing during adoration. NOT booming sound systems and pep rally dancing during a Mass. NOT the disturbing liturgical abuses and lack of awareness of the Real Presence of Christ that tear at our hearts when we see them. But peace and happiness and a Mass where we please Our Lord through our faithfulness.

 

[Lormar]

Right on, sister!

 

[SGT_ROCK_33]

So let’s see if a pattern is emerging here.

The OF attendees can do no wrong.

The EF attendees can do no good.

I see it that the division started with the New Mass. After all, the Latin Mass was well in place when it was reformed. The Novus Ordo is still “new”.

In my opinion, this division, or argument has all been twisted around. It is the faithful that should be asking the questions as to why there was a need for a New Mass and not the other way around.

Why was it necessary to reform the Liturgy? That’s the question… Why? I see no reason as to why it was necessary to reform the Liturgy…none whatsoever. The teachings on the form and matter of consecration were set in stone…set in stone, by several Popes and Councils. Why was it changed? Why were the words of consecration changed? Why was it necessary to change from latin to the vernacular? Why was it necessary to change the teachings on religious liberty? Why did the then Cardinal Ratzinger call the documents of Vatican II a “counter-syllabus”?

So many questions, and so few answers…

God Bless

 

[ProVobis]

Why was it necessary to reform the Liturgy? That’s the question… Why? I see no reason as to why it was necessary to reform the Liturgy…none whatsoever. The teachings on the form and matter of consecration were set in stone…set in stone, by several Popes and Councils. Why was it changed? Why were the words of consecration changed? Why was it necessary to change from latin to the vernacular? Why was it necessary to change the teachings on religious liberty?

To prove a point is all I can think of.

But whatever the reason, the changes sure came at the expense of a lot of lost souls.

 

[Timothysis]

The only divisions I see here are the “EF’rs” who want to stomp out the OF and try to turn the clock back to the fantasy world of the 1950s.

Seriously, can anyone show me a instance where someone here advocated the banning of the EF? Just this thread alone has enough examples of those who wish to ban the OF. What makes you guys think that you have all the answers? I don’t try to interfere in the way you attend Mass…please do the same for me.

 

[Lormar]

I see it that the division started with the New Mass. After all, the Latin Mass was well in place when it was reformed. The Novus Ordo is still “new”.

In my opinion, this division, or argument has all been twisted around. It is the faithful that should be asking the questions as to why there was a need for a New Mass and not the other way around.

Why was it necessary to reform the Liturgy? That’s the question… Why? I see no reason as to why it was necessary to reform the Liturgy…none whatsoever. The teachings on the form and matter of consecration were set in stone…set in stone, by several Popes and Councils. Why was it changed? Why were the words of consecration changed? Why was it necessary to change from latin to the vernacular? Why was it necessary to change the teachings on religious liberty? Why did the then Cardinal Ratzinger call the documents of Vatican II a “counter-syllabus”?

So many questions, and so few answers…

God Bless

Quite true, Sarge.

The Church was one until Vatican II came around to divide us. And now we are accused of being the divisive ones. Nothing divided the Church more than the aftermath of VII, and it continues to fragment. Before VII we were all simply Catholic. Now, we’re all hyphenated.

I’m not a fan of The Wanderer, and I haven’t subscribed to it in abouty twenty years, but if you read back issues from the eighties and nineties (especially the “From The Mail” column) you’ll read things that will horrify you.

 

[SGT_ROCK_33]

The only divisions I see here are the “EF’rs” who want to stomp out the OF and try to turn the clock back to the fantasy world of the 1950s.

Seriously, can anyone show me a instance where someone here advocated the banning of the EF? Just this thread alone has enough examples of those who wish to ban the OF. What makes you guys think that you have all the answers? I don’t try to interfere in the way you attend Mass…please do the same for me.

I don’t believe that anyone on this thread has tried to interfere with anyone in attending the Novus Ordo Mass. You are, of course, free to do as you wish…

God Bless

 

[Timothysis]

Why was it necessary to reform the Liturgy? That’s the question… Why? I see no reason as to why it was necessary to reform the Liturgy…none whatsoever.

There were calls for decades before the Vatican II council calling for a reform of the liturgy. No less than Cardinal Ratzinger has commented on the mechanical way people attended the latin Mass and that many did not think that it was ideal. The reforms began under Pope Pius X no less, continued through Pius XII and culminated in the Vatican II Council. The fact that YOU see no reason for reform doesn’t mean that a reason didn’t exist.

The teachings on the form and matter of consecration were set in stone…set in stone, by several Popes and Councils. Why was it changed? Why were the words of consecration changed?

What were the words of consecration changed from? Are you suggesting that there is only one legitimate consecration formula? Your argument is with the translation that is currently being revised. Will the change to “for all” make you an OF attendee? Can you show me where in the gospels Jesus ever uttered the words “mystery of faith?” Liturgical historians have found no less than 89 different consecration formulas in the history of the Church. Do you maintain that these are somehow deficient because they don’t mirror the one you think best?

 

[Timothysis]

I don’t believe that anyone on this thread has tried to interfere with anyone in attending the Novus Ordo Mass. You are, of course, free to do as you wish…

God Bless

Really? You guys only want a papal mandate banning the OF…I would say that that is an attempt at interfering.

 

[franklinf]

Agree with much of the previous.

I think the very first step must be two fold

1. Proper catechism on the Mass.
2. For the hierarchy to clean up the OF. No more abuses. No more Masses like at the RE Congress. No more CITH, girl altar servers. We need Latin, ad orientum, the Roman Canon at all NOs.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

I say it’s to begin phasing out the OF. Train the seminarians to pray the EF. Have them pray it exclusively after their ordination.

What of the EMHC, the lay lectors, the altar girls, etc. ? Promote the traditional roles. Choir, Third Orders, etc.

It’s crazy as is. As long as there are 2 forms of the Mass, there will be division, no matter how much we pretend there isn’t. At our local parish that offers both forms, it’s blatantly obvious. I’m sure there are exceptions, but those leaving the OF Mass tend to ignore those arriving for the EF that follows. Not just me, I’ve seen folks in front of me greeting those leaving the OF, and time and time again, they are ignored, get cold looks, or those leaving the OF just look the other way. Sad.

The EF will put everyone on the same page. I’ve thought long about this. I can’t think of any other way.

Thoughts ?

I understand your argument. But if one accepts that we need to get rid of one form of the mass, then the most logical answer is to get rid of the EF mass, which is lesser attended and which is not the liturgical norm.

So I think there might be a hole somewhere in your argument that you want to fill.

Pax,
OA

 

[At_Trent]

I understand your argument. But if one accepts that we need to get rid of one form of the mass, then the most logical answer is to get rid of the EF mass, which is lesser attended and which is not the liturgical norm.

So I think there might be a hole somewhere in your argument that you want to fill.

Pax,
OA

No, your argument has the hole. The EF was suppressed, and still is despite the SP of H.H. BXVI. Don’t pretend it isn’t. Don’t come on here and determine less than 3 years is enough time to gauge whether the people want it. Especially when it’s not been made available to all. How can they want something they are being denied of ? When the EF is in every parish for a few years, then take your poll.

I agree with most of your posts, but this one is ridiculous.

 

[At_Trent]

Agree with much of the previous.

I think the very first step must be two fold

1. Proper catechism on the Mass.
2. For the hierarchy to clean up the OF. No more abuses. No more Masses like at the RE Congress. No more CITH, girl altar servers. We need Latin, ad orientum, the Roman Canon at all NOs.

Huge move toward improvement, but when will it begin ?