What is the Orthodox opinion of the Catholic Church?

[Isa_Almisry]

A perfect example of actually not reading the original question properly. Take note everyone.

Oh?

What is the Orthodox opinion of the Catholic Church?
Do they believe we have valid Sacraments?

Do they believe that we have Apostolic Succession?

Do they believe the Pope holds any kind of primacy or honor, and if not…why not?

The first question is most certainly relevant. Does the Orthodox Church believe that Catholic sacraments impart grace on the faithful? More importantly…do they believe that the Eucharist truly becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in a Catholic Mass (or Divine Liturgy)? I am really wanting an honest answer because, I’m pretty sure I know how we view the Orthodox, but I’m not sure how the Orthodox view us.

Oh dear…I didn’t want to stir up a heated debate on the subject. I thought there could be a definite answer as to what the Orthodox Church teaches as far as the validity of Catholic sacraments…I figured it would be a simple “yes” or “no” type response.

I personally am a former Protestant of 18 years who converted to Catholicism Easter Vigil of 2007.

This is what I was wondering…what the official opinion of the Orthodox Church was regarding the validity of Catholic sacraments. So far no one has answered that definitively,

What is the official answer of the Orthodox Church, though? That’s what I was asking, not the individual opinions of the Orthodox, but what the Orthodox Church as a whole holds and professes to be true.

Having traveled this road a lot, I decided to skip the scenic route, the detours and go straight for the express route. Take note.

btw, Wyat, not a problem.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It seems people have difficult answering simple questions.

It seems some people have difficult accepting honest answers.

Of course if you don’t want to answer it, then it’s one thing

,

It’s been answered. That it’s not the answer you expected or wanted doesn’t change that.

but then one would wonder why you would post your opinion of “i don’t care” when you could have just not posted, one would think it’s quite something else.

Can you quote “i [sic] don’t care.” I do, but that doens’t mean I am going to make up answers.

 

[Harmony1988]

Oh?

Having traveled this road a lot, I decided to skip the scenic route, the detours and go straight for the express route. Take note.

btw, Wyat, not a problem.

Very good, you have fonted the relevant bits in red, now learn how to respond to questions which expect a yes or no answer, if a yes or no answer is not possible, then explain. Do you have to do this? No, but it helps coming off looking like an ignoramus whose sole intention is to add to the fire:

Why?

If your baptism is valid? We still won’t be baptized by you.

If your chrismation is valid? We still won’t accpet it from you.

If your priesthood is valid? Our bishops still will not let them serve at their altars.

If your Eucharist is valid? We still won’t commune with you.

If your marriages are valid? We still won’t marry in your churches.

If your unction is valid? We still won’t call you when the time comes.

He/She didn’t ask whether you were going to sit with him in mass or receive communion or whether the orthodox bishops will allow catholic priests at the orthodox altars.

 

[Harmony1988]

It seems some people have difficult accepting honest answers.

I am not put off by the fact that the orthodox do not allow one thing or another, that’s their perogative and ultimately their church. I frankly don’t care about your answer objectively because google is my best friend and answered the question better, but the point remains, you don’t know how to answer questions.

It’s been answered. That it’s not the answer you expected or wanted doesn’t change that.

It’s been answered alright, but it’s not a “good” answer.

“Is the sun a star?” can expect an answer of “meat is red”, which would be an answer, but a ridiculous one and one that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, similar to yours about answering whether or not the orthodox would be communing with catholics when that was not what the question was asking.

Can you quote “i [sic] don’t care.” I do, but that doens’t mean I am going to make up answers.

??

 

[Inity]

The official document of Russian Orthodox Church named “Basic Principles of Attitude to the Non-Orthodox”. This is the main rule that’s “in use” now.
The question of validity of Catholic sacraments is avoided.

mospat.ru/index.php?mid=91 (in english; pretty long)

 

[Wyatt]

Perhaps secularism is what will ultimately bring the two churches back together. After all, it would be easier to fight secularism as one, united force.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Why?

Why?

If your baptism is valid? We still won’t be baptized by you.

If your chrismation is valid? We still won’t accpet it from you.

If your priesthood is valid? Our bishops still will not let them serve at their altars.

If your Eucharist is valid? We still won’t commune with you.

If your marriages are valid? We still won’t marry in your churches.

If your unction is valid? We still won’t call you when the time comes.

I personally do, and prostrate whenever I come into a Latin church where adoration is goiing on, and cross myself passing a Latin church.

But that’s just my own theologoumen, and I’d never commune at a Latin church.

Why?

Erring, but salvageable/saveable.

Hesychois:

That’s all we would expect.

Otherwise you’d be Orthodox.

We are not seeking your approval.

That is refreshing. I would much rather have posts such as the ones above, rather that the “can’t we all just get along” posts of the indifferent ecumaniacs

As much as a detest the heretical and schismatic Orthodox Church, I do repsct the fact that they have not been infected with indifferentism, as have many Catholics.

 

[Inity]

Russian Orthodox Church always complains about Catholic Church “prozelyting” at their “canonical territory”. Catholic bishops, in turn, always ask for examples of this “prozelytism”, also reminding their orthodox brethern that Catholic Church is Universal Church and not to be bound by Russian borders.

I’ve saw that long document with “examples” of catholic prozelytism in Russia, that was finally (after many request from catholics) compiled; 99% of it is just nonsence. They try to deny activity of any catholic Order that has “missionary” word in their name, for example.

For many orthodox people here, if you join the Catholic Church, you betray Russia. Russian means Orthodox; catholics are “native enemies” of Russia and Orthodoxy. I’ve saw many online flames, where people were blaming russian catholics, calling them traitors (and other bad words). It’s common to blame catholic saints, especially st. Francis and st.Therese of Avila…

When I joke, I call myself a victim of catholic prozelytism. I started my friendship with catholics in early 90s. And I was called to leave Orthodox church just one time, by one lay woman, during catholic recollections I attended in 1995. Nobody else asked me to leave my faith and join. And it was just my decision.

Yesterday I was prozelyting, though I called a friend to visit st.Dominic’s feast day Mass with me. She is baptized in Orthodox church, but doesn’t attend it, doesn’t know chrtistianity well and believes in weird mix of beliefs such as reincarnation. However, amazed by beauty of the Mass, she asked me if she can receive a communion - I said no, only a blessing (so she did); and she started asking, if she can visit catechization courses. May be, if her attitude persists, I will accompany her 8)

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Russian Orthodox Church always complains about Catholic Church “prozelyting” at their “canonical territory”. Catholic bishops, in turn, always ask for examples of this “prozelytism”, also reminding their orthodox brethern that Catholic Church is Universal Church and not to be bound by Russian borders…

For many orthodox people here, if you join the Catholic Church, you betray Russia. Russian means Orthodox; catholics are “native enemies” of Russia and Orthodoxy.

That’s interesting. So, the Russian Orthodox Church is very much associated with Russia (the Country), in such a way that converting to the Catholic Church is viewed as betraying ones country?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Very good, you have fonted the relevant bits in red, now learn how to respond to questions which expect a yes or no answer, if a yes or no answer is not possible, then explain.

Done.

Do you have to do this?

I’ve done this.
No, but it helps coming off looking like an ignoramus whose sole intention is to add to the fire:
Matthew 7:2-3.

He/She didn’t ask whether you were going to sit with him in mass or receive communion or whether the orthodox bishops will allow catholic priests at the orthodox altars.

But he/she did aks why the validity of the Vatican’s mass, priests, etc. was not relevant.

 

[Inity]

That’s interesting. So, the Russian Orthodox Church is very much associated with Russia (the Country), in such a way that converting to the Catholic Church is viewed as betraying ones country?

Yes, you are totally correct. And it was so through all Russian history. These brave russians who joined Catholic Church, were called traitors, some of them (in 19th century) were sent out from the country forever, and their houses and savings were taken by the Tzar’s government.
Only in 1905, the government announced the freedom of confession! Before that, in the past, for betraying Orthodoxy, one could be punished or even killed. Right after that announce, 2000 people immediately converted to Catholic church, as I’ve read recently.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I am not put off by the fact that the orthodox do not allow one thing or another, that’s their perogative and ultimately their church. I frankly don’t care about your answer objectively because google is my best friend and answered the question better, but the point remains, you don’t know how to answer questions.

I see why google is your best friend.

It’s been answered alright, but it’s not a “good” answer.

For someone not the OP, you’re rather authoritative.
Is the cathedra on line?

“Is the sun a star?” can expect an answer of “meat is red”, which would be an answer, but a ridiculous one and one that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, similar to yours about answering whether or not the orthodox would be communing with catholics when that was not what the question was asking.

you don’t know how to understand an answer.

??

You do know what quotation marks are for, no?

It seems people have difficult answering simple questions. Of course if you don’t want to answer it, then it’s one thing, but then one would wonder why you would post your opinion of “i don’t care” when you could have just not posted, one would think it’s quite something else.

When you do, I’ll teach you about citation.

 

[valient_Lucy]

If your baptism is valid? We still won’t be baptized by you.

If your chrismation is valid? We still won’t accpet it from you.

If your priesthood is valid? Our bishops still will not let them serve at their altars.

If your Eucharist is valid? We still won’t commune with you.

If your marriages are valid? We still won’t marry in your churches.

If your unction is valid? We still won’t call you when the time comes.

I’m not a mind reader, but it’s possible that the OP is interested in whether or not a Catholic who converts to the Orthodox Church would have to be re-baptized, or a Catholic priest who converts would have to be re-ordained.

But like I said, I’m not a mind reader.

 

[Inity]

As far as I know, Greek Orthodox Church re-baptizes catholics. This practice was frequently blamed by russian orthodox people - they strongly believe in the validity of Catholic baptism, usually.
Russian Orthodox Church doesn’t re-baptize catholics, and doesn’t re-ordain catholic priests.

 

[Wyatt]

Perhaps I should clarify my original question. When I asked whether or not the Orthodox Church believes Catholic Sacraments are valid, I wasn’t asking whether you would willingly receive our Sacraments under normal circumstances, I was merely wondering if the Church has an official answer. If I’m understanding correctly, the Church doesn’t mandating what individual Orthodox believe as far as whether Catholic Sacraments are valid or not.

In my case, personally, if I was in a situation where there were only Orthodox parishes around and I absolutely could not get to a Catholic parish, I would most certainly, if permitted by the Orthodox priest, receive Communion at the Divine Liturgy since I firmly believe that it becomes the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Russian Orthodox Church always complains about Catholic Church “prozelyting” at their “canonical territory”. Catholic bishops, in turn, always ask for examples of this “prozelytism”, also reminding their orthodox brethern that Catholic Church is Universal Church and not to be bound by Russian borders.

I’ve saw that long document with “examples” of catholic prozelytism in Russia, that was finally (after many request from catholics) compiled; 99% of it is just nonsence. They try to deny activity of any catholic Order that has “missionary” word in their name, for example.

For many orthodox people here, if you join the Catholic Church, you betray Russia. Russian means Orthodox; catholics are “native enemies” of Russia and Orthodoxy. I’ve saw many online flames, where people were blaming russian catholics, calling them traitors (and other bad words). It’s common to blame catholic saints, especially st. Francis and st.Therese of Avila…

When I joke, I call myself a victim of catholic prozelytism. I started my friendship with catholics in early 90s. And I was called to leave Orthodox church just one time, by one lay woman, during catholic recollections I attended in 1995. Nobody else asked me to leave my faith and join. And it was just my decision.

Yesterday I was prozelyting, though I called a friend to visit st.Dominic’s feast day Mass with me. She is baptized in Orthodox church, but doesn’t attend it, doesn’t know chrtistianity well and believes in weird mix of beliefs such as reincarnation. However, amazed by beauty of the Mass, she asked me if she can receive a communion - I said no, only a blessing (so she did); and she started asking, if she can visit catechization courses. May be, if her attitude persists, I will accompany her 8)

I’ve heard this argument that you can be both Russian and “katolichesky” (Catholic is “soborny”). I’ve also seen the oblivion of those who say it that you can be both Polish (there is an autocephalous Polish Orthodox Church) and Orthodox. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is not bound by borders.

I’ve never been to Russia, so I don’t know (though I’ve heard) firsthand. I’ve seen the interest (raising money, etc.) here (US) to send missionaries to Russia for the Vatican, etc. In Romania I saw the Romanian translation of the CCC, which was interesting as the coutry is over 90% Orthodox and the majority of the Vaticans supporters speak Hungarian, followed by German (though this last language may have declined to third place by now) and at the time ('92) the Englishe translation was not yet published (I think a great number of the Vatican’s flock speak English). JP II had just commented that if the Romanians were really Roman, they would be “Roman Catholic.” At the time too, JP II was going around Latin America and decrying the Protestants (who are persecuted in Latin America).

Btw, what’s the other “1%”?

Btw, on the Polish Orthodox:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral%2C_Warsaw

 

[Inity]

Btw, what’s the other “1%”?

There was a case described that a group of russian children from catholic orphanage (children in such orphanages are usually or non-baptized, or baptized in Orthodox church) was travelling in Poland, where they visited catholic church, and were “fed” by catholic Hosts, without knowing that that is a Communion.
Personally I don’t believe in this story - why give communion to children without telling them what it is?! - but the catholic bishop, who was answering to the document, said politely, that “such things won’t have to happen again, please inform us if something like this happens”. At least he didn’t say that it’s total nonsence.
Orthodox usually blame catholic orphanages in Russia. Another case mentioned: there were two orthodox children who were later sent into catholic orphanage. They had godparents who visited them, giving them holy water and orthodox litherature; keepers of the orphanage restricted the meetings of godparents with these children.
Later it was told why: there good-loving godparents were giving to the children such books as “Anti-Catholic Cathehism” (Yes, such terrible book, full of hate, nonsence and lies, exists here in russia and has a scandalous glory) and “Papacy and its battle against the Orthodoxy” (I’ve had that book; full of hate - worse than anti-catholic Chick Tracts!)… so no wonder that catholic keepers of the orphanage did not permit giving these books to children.

 

[Peter_J]

It seems people have difficult answering simple questions.

Welcome to the internet.

It seems some people have difficult accepting honest answers.

Welcome to the internet.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Welcome to the internet.

Welcome to the internet.

LOL. At least here there’s the Shut down icon.

 

[Peter_J]

For many orthodox people here, if you join the Catholic Church, you betray Russia. Russian means Orthodox; catholics are “native enemies” of Russia and Orthodoxy.

Well now that’s just sad. I completely agree with the idea that Catholics shouldn’t proselytize in Russia; but I also completely believe that anyone who wants to convert to Catholicism (or any other religion, for that matter) should be allowed to, without being considered any less of a Russian citizen.

P.S. I’m no fan of the Protestant Reformation, but I’m glad that in the wake of it we in the West have managed to build societies that cherish freedom of religion.