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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Like Ireland?
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Inity
Guest
Officially, Russia is “secular country” now and allows freedom of religion. But traditions are strong. Even people who are not attending the Liturgy or barely believe in Christ, keep thinking that “russian must be Orthodox” and that “Orthodoxy is russian native religion” (drawing many laughs from followers of slavonic paganism).
Orthodox Church really is afraid of Catholic “prozelytism”. But there are too many people here who were baptized in the childhood in Soviet times, and never were taught to believe. They are the majority, most of them are non-believers or agnostics, or visit church twice in a year to “lit a candle” and leave… but these people are still count as “orthodox”. And when these people find Christ in another Church, Orthodox Church raises the “Prozelytism!” banner.
If an orthodox wants to join Catholic Church here, (s)he is usually sent to catechisation (similar for american RCIA, I guess) for a year. I know an orthodox girl who is starting the catechization this September. She doesn’t want to accept catholic Communion before she finishes the catechization course. The course is finished by “profession of Faith” where person reads the Creed and receives Communion.
I was lucky enough not to be sent through this. It’s up to a priest, anyway. When I told my story to a priest, he said that I can go to confession and receive Communion - and that was all. But I was in “close relationship” with Catholic Church since 1991, studying its history, doctrine and teachings, and I was practicing christian for all these years - so I wasn’t “new”.
And, as I said before, only once I was “prozelyted” by one woman. Priests never asked me if I want to convert or not. They were always respecting Orthodox church.
In early 90’s, a priest here allowed one orthodox girl to join Third Secular Dominican Order! Later she did not extend her vows, but became catholic anyway. Like in my case, nobody was asking her to convert.
Orthodox Church really is afraid of Catholic “prozelytism”. But there are too many people here who were baptized in the childhood in Soviet times, and never were taught to believe. They are the majority, most of them are non-believers or agnostics, or visit church twice in a year to “lit a candle” and leave… but these people are still count as “orthodox”. And when these people find Christ in another Church, Orthodox Church raises the “Prozelytism!” banner.
If an orthodox wants to join Catholic Church here, (s)he is usually sent to catechisation (similar for american RCIA, I guess) for a year. I know an orthodox girl who is starting the catechization this September. She doesn’t want to accept catholic Communion before she finishes the catechization course. The course is finished by “profession of Faith” where person reads the Creed and receives Communion.
I was lucky enough not to be sent through this. It’s up to a priest, anyway. When I told my story to a priest, he said that I can go to confession and receive Communion - and that was all. But I was in “close relationship” with Catholic Church since 1991, studying its history, doctrine and teachings, and I was practicing christian for all these years - so I wasn’t “new”.
And, as I said before, only once I was “prozelyted” by one woman. Priests never asked me if I want to convert or not. They were always respecting Orthodox church.
In early 90’s, a priest here allowed one orthodox girl to join Third Secular Dominican Order! Later she did not extend her vows, but became catholic anyway. Like in my case, nobody was asking her to convert.
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Peter_J
Guest
I’m no expert on Ireland, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that’s wouldn’t be the first place I’d think of.Like Ireland?
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Peter_J
Guest
BTW, I assume you say the Creed in Russian, correct? Do you, now that you are Latin Catholic, use the same text (same translation) of the Creed as you did when you were Orthodox? (Sorry for getting away from the topic of the thread.)
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Inity
Guest
In Orthodox church, we use ancient Church-Slavonic language, not modern russian. So first time I learned the Creed, I learned it in Church-Slavonic. So it’s a bit different from modern russian translation used by the Catholic Church. For example, the word “catholic” - in Church-Slavonic, it’s translated as “sobornaya” (direct meaning of “sobor” word is council, community of faithful), and in modern russian, it’s translated as “vselenskaya” (=Universal). Other differences are not too important.
During the Mass, I follow the Creed in russian, like everyone else. In my private prayer, however, I prefer Church-Slavonic (because it’s more beautiful than russian - it’s sacred language just like Latin for any traditional catholic), but I add “and from the Son” (filioque) into it, - or, pray in latin.
I also prefer reading “Our Father” in Church-Slavonic. When I pray the Rosary, I read some “Hail Marys” in latin, some in russian and some in Church-Slavonic
Just BTW - for those who doesn’t know - there IS real Rosary in Russian Orthodox church. It’s called “God Mother’s Rule” and it was given by Our Lady to st.Seraphim of Sarov in 19th century. Like traditional catholic Rosary, it contains 150 Hail Mary’s and 15 Our Fathers, and meditations about events from Mary and Christ’s life. The “mysteries” are almost identhical to catholic ones - with only few differences. Also, the difference is in the beginning - there’s no “tail” with the crucifix; the orthodox “rule” contains 50+5 or 150+15 beads with a crucifix attached right to the circle.
On my photo (matrixagents.net/images/photos/Roma1994/image41.jpg ) there is Orthodox “Rosary” on my neck 8)
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Peter_J
Guest
I certainly didn’t intent to insult Russia, Ireland, or anywhere else. But my preference is for a society in which no one religion is consider more “patriotic” than all others.
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Peter_J
Guest
Interesting.
So concerning the filioque, you say it in your own private recitation of the Creed, but not when you say the Creed in mass? I like that.
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Inity
Guest
Of course, catholics say filioque at Mass - because it exists in catholic russian translation of the Creed. I thought it’s pretty obviousInteresting.
So concerning the filioque, you say it in your own private recitation of the Creed, but not when you say the Creed in mass? I like that.
It exists in lutheran russian translation of the Creed, too. If Orthodox would translate the Creed into modern russian, they won’t say filioque.It doesn’t exist in Church-Slavonic text - so I add it.
I forgot to mention, that in Church Slavonic, there is also no phrase “God of God”. I didn’t find “God of God” in english version, too, but it exists in Latin (“Deum de Deo”) and Greek. When I read in Church Slavonic, I don’t add “God of God”, because I don’t think it’s necessary.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
How about the bigotry that flies down there?
The wife of a parishioner (she’s still Protestant) grew up in Ireland as the missionary kid. Bigotry, from what she says, is not confined to “up there.”
Btw, I support Ireland’s claims. Too bad the Vatican doesn’t, Pope Adrian the one who gave Ireland as a fief to the English king and sent him on Crusade to annihilate the Celtic Church.
The wife of a parishioner (she’s still Protestant) grew up in Ireland as the missionary kid. Bigotry, from what she says, is not confined to “up there.”
Btw, I support Ireland’s claims. Too bad the Vatican doesn’t, Pope Adrian the one who gave Ireland as a fief to the English king and sent him on Crusade to annihilate the Celtic Church.
I’m aware of the change. I point it out every time a pro-abortionist tries to dismiss the (former?) ban of abortion in Ireland as “well they don’t pretend to separate Church and State.” And again, I like how the Irish voting public up until recently, were able to vot their conscience (and Christian morality) into law, without the recognition (I’m not so sure it’s outdated).
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Isa_Almisry
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You are aware, that St. Seraphim stated that only the Orthodox can attain the height of ceaseless prayer (it was a topic of discussion a while back here (or was it ECF?): someone had qualms about venerating St. Seraphim.In Orthodox church, we use ancient Church-Slavonic language, not modern russian. So first time I learned the Creed, I learned it in Church-Slavonic. So it’s a bit different from modern russian translation used by the Catholic Church. For example, the word “catholic” - in Church-Slavonic, it’s translated as “sobornaya” (direct meaning of “sobor” word is council, community of faithful), and in modern russian, it’s translated as “vselenskaya” (=Universal). Other differences are not too important.
During the Mass, I follow the Creed in russian, like everyone else. In my private prayer, however, I prefer Church-Slavonic (because it’s more beautiful than russian - it’s sacred language just like Latin for any traditional catholic), but I add “and from the Son” (filioque) into it, - or, pray in latin.
I also prefer reading “Our Father” in Church-Slavonic. When I pray the Rosary, I read some “Hail Marys” in latin, some in russian and some in Church-Slavonic
Just BTW - for those who doesn’t know - there IS real Rosary in Russian Orthodox church. It’s called “God Mother’s Rule” and it was given by Our Lady to st.Seraphim of Sarov in 19th century. Like traditional catholic Rosary, it contains 150 Hail Mary’s and 15 Our Fathers, and meditations about events from Mary and Christ’s life. The “mysteries” are almost identhical to catholic ones - with only few differences. Also, the difference is in the beginning - there’s no “tail” with the crucifix; the orthodox “rule” contains 50+5 or 150+15 beads with a crucifix attached right to the circle.
On my photo (matrixagents.net/images/photos/Roma1994/image41.jpg ) there is Orthodox “Rosary” on my neck 8)
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Nazi Germany gives a good exaple of what happens when “patriotism” becomes the state religion, and the examples of B XVI’s father and the Bulgarian Orthodox Church as religion as bulwark against it.
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Inity
Guest
It’s long time since I’ve read life of St.Seraphim, so I don’t remember if he was saying something like that about ceaseless prayer. But I don’t doubt in his sainthood.
There are other orthodox saints who were saying lots of insults against catholics - such as much respected theologian Ignatiy Bryanchaninoff. In his works he was frequently blaming catholics as heretics, and was attacking st.Francis, st. Angela of Foligno and st.Theresa of Avila like false saints, fallen in temptation. It was told that in one private letter he named catholics as “dogs” (though we didn’t find that letter in his collected works online).
I don’t remember catholic saints attacking Orthodoxy by same intolerant ways, telling that orthodox saints worship devil, etc.
I venerate and pray to many orthodox saints, such as st.Sergiy of Radonezh (as far as I know, he was canonized before the Ferrara-Florence Council, so he was recognized as saint in Eastern Catholic Church), or st.Xenia, patroness of St.Petersburg (XIXth century).
There are other orthodox saints who were saying lots of insults against catholics - such as much respected theologian Ignatiy Bryanchaninoff. In his works he was frequently blaming catholics as heretics, and was attacking st.Francis, st. Angela of Foligno and st.Theresa of Avila like false saints, fallen in temptation. It was told that in one private letter he named catholics as “dogs” (though we didn’t find that letter in his collected works online).
I don’t remember catholic saints attacking Orthodoxy by same intolerant ways, telling that orthodox saints worship devil, etc.
I venerate and pray to many orthodox saints, such as st.Sergiy of Radonezh (as far as I know, he was canonized before the Ferrara-Florence Council, so he was recognized as saint in Eastern Catholic Church), or st.Xenia, patroness of St.Petersburg (XIXth century).
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Harmony1988
Guest
I’m going to call a red herring on this one. Quoting Matthew 7:2-3 on the beam in the brother’s eye. This is one of those quote a random line and hope it confuses the opposition thing.
Try again.
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Harmony1988
Guest
Again with the ambiguity, don’t expect me to chew away at false leads.I see why google is your best friend.
Best to stick on topic, you have committed the fallacy of “ignoratio elenchi” - Which means going away from topic, yes it’s a logical fallacy. Try again, if you don’t believe me…well a crash course in philosophy and argumentation would help.
Yes I’m afraid I need to brush up on my comprehension
I’ve always wondered about them.
I’ll look foward to that.When you do, I’ll teach you about citation.
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robert_Ian_Will
Guest
Before I became a catholic I encountered the orthodox. I came across very virulent anti-Catholic propaganda and attitudes.
When I discoverd they accepted contraception and divorce/ re-marriage I knew it was not true. Whats the point in beautiful liturgy if you are sending souls to Hell.
One can see how God has punished the Orthodox churches with both Islam and Commuism.
When I discoverd they accepted contraception and divorce/ re-marriage I knew it was not true. Whats the point in beautiful liturgy if you are sending souls to Hell.
One can see how God has punished the Orthodox churches with both Islam and Commuism.
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Harmony1988
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Ian, I think you need to be careful in saying such things. God has punished everyone with various things for shortcomings. Suffering exists everywhere and for everyone. The Catholic church also had to deal with communism, and nazism coming from a country full of Catholics! But I wouldn’t be quick to attribute specific things to God ‘punishing’. It would be like saying God preconceived stalin, hitler and etc to go out in the world and cause all this, which is incorrect.
The orthodox churches never preached communism, do not do them wrong in saying they deserve it
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Peter_J
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Yes it is … now.Of course, catholics say filioque at Mass - because it exists in catholic russian translation of the Creed. I thought it’s pretty obvious
But as for it being obvious prior to your saying it, I disagree. There are millions of Catholics who say the Creed without the filioque, and it doesn’t make than any less Catholic.
So I don’t entirely understand why you say that ‘of course’ you say the filioque.
Okay, but I’m not really sure what you’re point is here.
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Inity
Guest
As far as I know, in latin rite churches people say filioque, when in eastern catholic churches they may not say it.
I never was at eastern catholic liturgy (there’s no temple in our city), so I don’t know if they add filioque to church-slavonic text. I may ask a graeko-catholic priest I know (though I don’t know how soon he will respond).
I never was at eastern catholic liturgy (there’s no temple in our city), so I don’t know if they add filioque to church-slavonic text. I may ask a graeko-catholic priest I know (though I don’t know how soon he will respond).
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Peter_J
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I used to think that too, but in fact there are also some Roman-Rite Catholics who say the Creed without the filioque – namely, those Roman-Rite Catholics who speak Greek. (Ironically, the vast majority of Catholics in Greece are of the Roman Rite. But that’s neither here nor there.)
Of course, the vast majority of Roman-Rite Catholics (at least 99%, I would say) do say the Creed with the filioque, so I guess it is quite understandable that you assumed we knew what you meant.
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RobHom
Guest
While some of your statement is correct… I should like to point out from a purely historical and demographic point of view that Germany was not “a country full of Catholics”.
From here: ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005206
A religious census taken in 1925 revealed that of an overall German population of 65 million, 40 million belonged to the main Protestant (Evangelical Lutheran) church, 21 million to the Roman Catholic church, and 620,000 to various smaller, mostly Protestant denominations. The term “Church Struggle” refers to the strained relationship between church and state in Germany in the 1870s and then again during the Nazi regime. Although Nazi policy at first seemed to tolerate church autonomy, it soon became clear that official tolerance of Christian religious groups would last only as long as the churches accepted synchronization–the alignment of the church, along with other areas of society, with Nazi goals. The Roman Catholic and Protestant churches met the Nazi rise to power with attempts to retain control of their respective institutions and the rights of their brethren to worship freely and openly. "
That website is fairly unbiased, and it is historically informative and accurate. For those lacking any meaningful background in historical and religious facts as they pertain to Germany during the period pre-WWII up to the end of WWII and the fall of the Third Reich…it can be quite informative.
Can we at least be “historically correct”?
I am in agreement with you on that! We humans find it so easy to lay blame on others…without a grain of truth or fact. Its called foolishness and hypocrisy. It is also very much against Christ’s Word. We need to be very careful what we say, and by the same token we should be very careful what information we dispense in making certain that it is “valid and factual”.
Peace!
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