What is the Orthodox opinions on Pope?

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Each chapter is a different writer, which is what makes this book awesome. You get different viewpoints and different studies, not just one guy rambling on an on with his own polemics. Which is why I agreed to buy this book and so far I am loving it.
As for Peter, 2 of the 3 writers so far that I have read points to Peter having a higher authority than the Apostles. However, that doesn’t point to Peter being the “boss” of the Apostles. Also they have so far (of my reading) been unanimous in pointing out that even if Peter possessed something extraordinary among the Apostles, this was never passed to any bishop. John Meyendorff even admits the Pope receiving special position and authority, but not from Peter but from a council. So the Pope’s authority is not Apostolic but rather conciliar. And such authority is not what Rome makes it to be today.
I’m going to focus on this here if that’s ok?

Putting some of these things together:
  1. “Peter having a higher authority than the Apostles”
  2. “if Peter possessed something extraordinary among the Apostles, this was never passed to any bishop”
  3. “the Pope receiving special position and authority, but not from Peter but from a council”
They don’t add up to me… it would just appear to be a coincidence that:

a) Peter had a “higher authority than the Apostles”

b) “…if Peter possessed something extraordinary among the Apostles…”

c) The Bishop of Rome was looked upon as the successor of St. Peter in a unique way (a point I put in obviously)

d) “…the Pope receiving special position and authority…”

on the last part (d), the book claims that this is conciliar. To me it makes more sense what Pope St. Damasus said:
‘Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it’ (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).
Source: catholic.com/tracts/origins-of-peter-as-pope

Sorry to rant here…

I wanted to make another point about the keys, St. Matthew 16:18-19 and Orthodox Christian interpretations but I might check some Orthodox sources and come back…
 
To take some passages off the book I am reading:

John Camateros, Patriarch of Constantinople in a letter to Innocent III

Having recognized a certain analogy, similar to the one found in geometry, between the relations of Peter with the other disciples of Christ, on the one hand, and the relations of the church of the Romans with the other patriarchal sees, on the other hand, we must examine whether Peter implied and held in himself the other disciples of Christ and weather the choir of the disciples was subdued to him, obeyed him as a chief and a master, leaving thus to the Roman Church a similar universal primacy. But listening to the words of the Gospel, our embarrassment is clearly dissolved.

And he concludes:

We agree to honor Peter as the first disciple of Christ, to honor him more than the others and to venerate him as possessing precedence, we recognized the Church of Rome as the first in rank and honor among equal sister-churches… but we have not been taught to recognize in it the mother of other churches or to venerate it embracing all other churches.

Nicholas Mesarites writes:

*It is true that Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, went to Rome; there is in this nothing sensational or extraordinary; in Rome as in other cities, he was a teacher, not a bishop. For Linus was indeed the first bishop of Rome, elected by the holy and divine apostolic college, and then Sixtus, and in the third place, Clement, the holy martyr, whom Peter himself appointed to the pontifical throne. It is not true, therefore, that Peter has ever been bishop of Rome. The Italians have made the universal teacher the bishop of one city.
*

And he continues

You try to present Peter as teacher of Rome alone. While the divine Father spoke of the promise made to him by the Savior as having a catholic meaning and as referring to all those who believed and believe; you force yourself into a narrow and false interpretation, ascribing to Rome alone. If this were true, it would be impossible for every church of the faithful, and not only that of Rome, to possess the Savior properly, and for each church to be founded on the Savior properly, and for each church to be founded on the Rock, ie, the doctrine of Peter, in conformity with the promise.

books.google.ca/books?id=hMjoJx8FD2wC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
It references other books and studies. I usually don’t bother reading the footnotes but this book is very generous with its sources.
Nine out of ten of the best scholarly arguments are carried out solely in the footnotes of works published back-and-forth, rarely intruding in to the base text. If they are in the base text, chances are it’s more of a squabble (or polemic) than a top-notch argument.

Although that entire tactic likely relies on many men skipping the footnotes entirely or nearly so, leaving them only for those interested in the debate (or the details). I’d also wager it’s why many journals of philosophy reject, often in their submission guidelines, too many or too long footnotes (although, when used extensively, it’s often as a crutch for poor writing, in the same way I use many parenthetical excurses: Jaroslav Pelikan wrote the seminal treatise on the development of doctrine over the course of 1,200 pages and not a single footnote [although with many, many marginal references and enough bibliographic material to keep one busy for five lifetimes, one lifetime for each volume’s bibliography - even I can’t keep up; he learned so many languages, and had mastered the sources so thoroughly, it astounds me, and I am, in my experience, as much above the average in that regard as he is above me (and he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy). He reminds me much of an Augustine or John Calvin, two men also renowned for their memory and mastery of nearly all relevant previous material (if Calvin hadn’t gone Protestant, we’d have two Thomae Aquinitii, I think)]).

As far as the actual split, the roots can be traced back to the times of the early Church Fathers, specifically, as I previously mentioned, Augustine, Origen, and the Cappadocians, themselves, not to mention the arguments over Easter and azymes (nor to even think of mentioning the future Filioque, a whipping-boy for all of the parallel yet divergent development in the two traditions). By the time of the Quinisext Council, the gulf was widening to the point that one doesn’t have to be a theologian or Patristics scholar capable of comparing Origenism and Augustinism or the Greek and Latin Fathers to see that it is wide and deep; by the time of the Iconoclasts and then the Photian schism (at the absolute latest, and likely earlier), the two Churches will be in and out of communion until the final break in the late 1400s, not even a long lifetime before Luther’s first cries for “reformation in head and members” (and not too long before the Ecumenical Patriarch himself, Cyril Lukaris, is seduced by Calvinism, and writes a Calvinistic catechism which he calls An Exposition of the Faith of Eastern Christians). By the time of the Filioque controversies and Symeon the New Theologian, and, later, Gregory Palamas and the Hesychasts most especially, the traditions have diverged enough that, liturgy and tradition notwithstanding, the dogmatics of the two traditions seem impossible to trace to a common source.

Not only two disparate methods of theologizing, two languages, two cultures, mutual animosity (as Pelikan states, Byzantine theologians would “win their spurs by composing such treatises as Against the Latin Heresy”, and Roman Catholic theologians would win their spurs by composing such treatises as “On the Errors of the Greeks”), and the resultant divide contributed to the split, but also the vastly disparate lengths of theological maturation on each side of the Byzantine Curtain (after Byzantium had become an Empire in its own right, and the West had entered the “Dark Age” of barbarian invasion and rising and falling kingdoms) the eighth-century Greeks had theological sophistication not matched in the West until the twelfth, or, likely, thirteenth centuries, with St Thomas Aquinas. Compare the theological sophistication of the Icondules and Iconoclasts, or the dogmatics of John Damascene, with a Carolingian theologian (who, chronologically, postceded the Byzantines), and then with a Scholastic theologian of the High Middle Ages, and see which ones match up.

But, at that point, the West kept marching on, whereas the Orthodox didn’t, and ended up stuck at what, to me, seems to be a most infelicitous time in their development - that of Palamas. The Greeks take it as a point of pride (and, at times I question whether not rightly so, if it was stuck at any other time, such as that of Maximus Confessor, or John Damascene, or even Photius, instead of Palamas) that they have frozen in place - much as the Fathers - Greek and Latin - of the latest antiquity through Middle Ages did, proclaiming again and again, “I do nothing by my own hand, but only transmit what the holy Catholic Fathers and Doctors before me have already said and written”, and tend to deny any development of doctrine.

Pelikan proposes, and I agree - although for different reasons, as I see the hand of Divine Providence at work - that much of Rome’s authority through the ages was buttressed again and again by it unfailingly and staunchly remaining on the side of orthodox doctrine - with the exception of the naivete, even arguably not formal heresy, of Honorius - throughout the first seven councils, with the period of the formative first four having no errors in Rome, and multitudinous heresies, Trinitarian and Christological, spawned and supported by incumbents of every other see. One can read this as the hand of God, or merely as Bauer would have put it, the Roman legal mind emerging “victorious” in every doctrinal dispute, to insure that it’s own idiosyncratic “Christianity” of many “Christianities” would become “orthodox” in the future (although I imagine everyone in this thread, Orthodox and Roman Catholic, would denounce that interpretation), or even as luck of the draw (although amazingly improbable luck it is). Rome had, and has, a reputation for unblemished orthodoxy (“Truly, St Peter has spoken by the lips of Leo!”), and the other sees didn’t: the effect of this is obvious, contra sees that were breeding grounds for heresy.

Although Pelikan (who obviously sympathizes with the Orthodox, eventually converting to their faith), writes, while still a Lutheran: “The monarchical pretensions [or delusions] of one patriarchal see could be and were voted down by the other four”.
 
But the bishop is a position of authority. He is the overseer of each Church. Its just not in the type of authority that Rome believes it to be. I should have said it that way, it is by no means a special authority above other bishops.
Then why did Christ only give the keys to Peter and not to ALL of the apostles (if it’s not a special authority)? On the contrary, Christ gave them ALL the power to forgive sins in the Upper Room.
 
If the Orthodox Christians had a good opinion about the Pope the schism between the two churches would never have happened, there you answered the question yourself.
 
Then why did Christ only give the keys to Peter and not to ALL of the apostles (if it’s not a special authority)? On the contrary, Christ gave them ALL the power to forgive sins in the Upper Room.
The Orthodox view each diocese as a reflection of complete catholicity with unity centered on the Eucharist as opposed to catholicity being a worldwide universal church with each diocese being just a part. So each Bishop in each diocese is viewed as Peter with the Priests as Apostles.
I’ve heard it compared to a hologram. When you try and divide a hologram it doesn’t split into seperate individual parts but smaller whole reflections of the larger reflection.
 
If the Orthodox Christians had a good opinion about the Pope the schism between the two churches would never have happened, there you answered the question yourself.
That is insulting.

It shows lack of understanding of how the schism erupted and a lack of understanding of how the early church was organized. But some people will only believe what they want to believe. :rolleyes:
 
Nine out of ten of the best scholarly arguments are carried out solely in the footnotes of works published back-and-forth, rarely intruding in to the base text. If they are in the base text, chances are it’s more of a squabble (or polemic) than a top-notch argument.

Although that entire tactic likely relies on many men skipping the footnotes entirely or nearly so, leaving them only for those interested in the debate (or the details). I’d also wager it’s why many journals of philosophy reject, often in their submission guidelines, too many or too long footnotes (although, when used extensively, it’s often as a crutch for poor writing, in the same way I use many parenthetical excurses: Jaroslav Pelikan wrote the seminal treatise on the development of doctrine over the course of 1,200 pages and not a single footnote [although with many, many marginal references and enough bibliographic material to keep one busy for five lifetimes, one lifetime for each volume’s bibliography - even I can’t keep up; he learned so many languages, and had mastered the sources so thoroughly, it astounds me, and I am, in my experience, as much above the average in that regard as he is above me (and he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy). He reminds me much of an Augustine or John Calvin, two men also renowned for their memory and mastery of nearly all relevant previous material (if Calvin hadn’t gone Protestant, we’d have two Thomae Aquinitii, I think)]).

As far as the actual split, the roots can be traced back to the times of the early Church Fathers, specifically, as I previously mentioned, Augustine, Origen, and the Cappadocians, themselves, not to mention the arguments over Easter and azymes (nor to even think of mentioning the future Filioque, a whipping-boy for all of the parallel yet divergent development in the two traditions). By the time of the Quinisext Council, the gulf was widening to the point that one doesn’t have to be a theologian or Patristics scholar capable of comparing Origenism and Augustinism or the Greek and Latin Fathers to see that it is wide and deep; by the time of the Iconoclasts and then the Photian schism (at the absolute latest, and likely earlier), the two Churches will be in and out of communion until the final break in the late 1400s, not even a long lifetime before Luther’s first cries for “reformation in head and members” (and not too long before the Ecumenical Patriarch himself, Cyril Lukaris, is seduced by Calvinism, and writes a Calvinistic catechism which he calls An Exposition of the Faith of Eastern Christians). By the time of the Filioque controversies and Symeon the New Theologian, and, later, Gregory Palamas and the Hesychasts most especially, the traditions have diverged enough that, liturgy and tradition notwithstanding, the dogmatics of the two traditions seem impossible to trace to a common source.

Not only two disparate methods of theologizing, two languages, two cultures, mutual animosity (as Pelikan states, Byzantine theologians would “win their spurs by composing such treatises as Against the Latin Heresy”, and Roman Catholic theologians would win their spurs by composing such treatises as “On the Errors of the Greeks”), and the resultant divide contributed to the split, but also the vastly disparate lengths of theological maturation on each side of the Byzantine Curtain (after Byzantium had become an Empire in its own right, and the West had entered the “Dark Age” of barbarian invasion and rising and falling kingdoms) the eighth-century Greeks had theological sophistication not matched in the West until the twelfth, or, likely, thirteenth centuries, with St Thomas Aquinas. Compare the theological sophistication of the Icondules and Iconoclasts, or the dogmatics of John Damascene, with a Carolingian theologian (who, chronologically, postceded the Byzantines), and then with a Scholastic theologian of the High Middle Ages, and see which ones match up.

But, at that point, the West kept marching on, whereas the Orthodox didn’t, and ended up stuck at what, to me, seems to be a most infelicitous time in their development - that of Palamas. The Greeks take it as a point of pride (and, at times I question whether not rightly so, if it was stuck at any other time, such as that of Maximus Confessor, or John Damascene, or even Photius, instead of Palamas) that they have frozen in place - much as the Fathers - Greek and Latin - of the latest antiquity through Middle Ages did, proclaiming again and again, “I do nothing by my own hand, but only transmit what the holy Catholic Fathers and Doctors before me have already said and written”, and tend to deny any development of doctrine.

Pelikan proposes, and I agree - although for different reasons, as I see the hand of Divine Providence at work - that much of Rome’s authority through the ages was buttressed again and again by it unfailingly and staunchly remaining on the side of orthodox doctrine - with the exception of the naivete, even arguably not formal heresy, of Honorius - throughout the first seven councils, with the period of the formative first four having no errors in Rome, and multitudinous heresies, Trinitarian and Christological, spawned and supported by incumbents of every other see. One can read this as the hand of God, or merely as Bauer would have put it, the Roman legal mind emerging “victorious” in every doctrinal dispute, to insure that it’s own idiosyncratic “Christianity” of many “Christianities” would become “orthodox” in the future (although I imagine everyone in this thread, Orthodox and Roman Catholic, would denounce that interpretation), or even as luck of the draw (although amazingly improbable luck it is). Rome had, and has, a reputation for unblemished orthodoxy (“Truly, St Peter has spoken by the lips of Leo!”), and the other sees didn’t: the effect of this is obvious, contra sees that were breeding grounds for heresy.

Although Pelikan (who obviously sympathizes with the Orthodox, eventually converting to their faith), writes, while still a Lutheran: “The monarchical pretensions [or delusions] of one patriarchal see could be and were voted down by the other four”.
Sounds good.
 
That is insulting.

It shows lack of understanding of how the schism erupted and a lack of understanding of how the early church was organized. But some people will only believe what they want to believe. :rolleyes:
Ehm, alright, if that’s what you want you’re claiming then fine, i’ll answer from personal expirience, since i’ve started school, from the early begining we were forced to take ‘‘religion classes’’, well not really religion classes, just classes where we only learnt about the orthodox faith, i do agree that may not be the only reason to why the schism happened however it is ONE of the main reasons, they do not believe the pope is a saint, but orthodox christians do have a patriarche whom they equal just as a servant of god, so if you ask an orthodox who studied the religion in depth, he’ll tell you the worst things about the pope, how the papic church committed the worst crimes in history etc etc, so please hesychios, you’re trying to argue with someone who has Byzantine roots, it shows the lack of your history knowledge, ‘‘some believe what they want to believe’’, well isn’t that ironic, not to mention that’s arrogant of you to say since i’m not even a christian :), cheers lad.
 
Then why did Christ only give the keys to Peter and not to ALL of the apostles (if it’s not a special authority)? On the contrary, Christ gave them ALL the power to forgive sins in the Upper Room.
And this is presuming that Peter even passed his authority to anyone at all.
 
And this is presuming that Peter even passed his authority to anyone at all.
My sense ConstantineTG, is that this argument (the argument that Peter didn’t pass on his authority) undercuts the argument for the Episcopacy and Apostolic Succession.
 
The Orthodox view towards the Pope of Rome is what it has always been. He was always or at least very soon considered to be the first among equals. This ranking was based on the historical fact that Rome was the Imperial city at the time and because of the deaths of the Ss Peter and Paul in the city.

The bishop of Rome (pope) was NEVER believed to have supremacy over the other Churches or over all Christians. This is supported by many of the Church fathers and the history of the early councils. The early Church was and the Church today continues to be conciliar.

So the Orthodox Church does not reject Papal primacy, but Papal supremacy, and rightly so.
How can you say he was the FIRST among equals but not have supermacy? Why then would there be a FIRST if all are equal?:confused:
 
How can you say he was the FIRST among equals but not have supermacy? Why then would there be a FIRST if all are equal?:confused:
Think of this like a family.

Christ is the father.

You have an older brother, whom you respect enormously. He is a great source of advice and help. Of course during a crises (like a death in the family, or some such thing). He could take the lead in bringing the family together.

At family gatherings, he could sit at the head of the table (this might be if Dad is unavailable) and he might be asked to give the blessing.

But he does not make decisions for everyone alse in the family.

He will not tell you who to marry, or where to buy a house, or what school you should send your kids to. Ultimately, your household is your own, and although you respect his opinion and you would contact him for help sometimes (and he you), he does not run your home and you do not run his home. That would be meddling.

The church is a family, this metaphor has been employed to describe it since the beginning…
 
My sense ConstantineTG, is that this argument (the argument that Peter didn’t pass on his authority) undercuts the argument for the Episcopacy and Apostolic Succession.
Exactly.

Honestly, it just makes sense to me that if Christ thought it was important enough to have one of the apostles lead/have special authority in the beginning that he would always want to have one apostle to lead the others/have special authority over the others.
 
Think of this like a family.

Christ is the father.

You have an older brother, whom you respect enormously. He is a great source of advice and help. Of course during a crises (like a death in the family, or some such thing). He could take the lead in bringing the family together.

At family gatherings, he could sit at the head of the table (this might be if Dad is unavailable) and he might be asked to give the blessing.

But he does not make decisions for everyone alse in the family.
He will not tell you who to marry, or where to buy a house, or what school you should send your kids to. Ultimately, your household is your own, and although you respect his opinion and you would contact him for help sometimes (and he you), he does not run your home and you do not run his home. That would be meddling.

The church is a family, this metaphor has been employed to describe it since the beginning…
The Pope doesn’t tell us what to do either. He guides us along the right path. We decide what to do…to follow God’s Will or not. Equating supremacy with telling others what to do is false.
 
The Orthodox view each diocese as a reflection of complete catholicity with unity centered on the Eucharist as opposed to catholicity being a worldwide universal church with each diocese being just a part. So each Bishop in each diocese is viewed as Peter with the Priests as Apostles.
So each Orthodox diocese has a different set of doctrines? It sounds like this is what would happen if each diocese was viewed to have its own Peter.
 
The Pope doesn’t tell us what to do either. He guides us along the right path. We decide what to do…to follow God’s Will or not. Equating supremacy with telling others what to do is false.
Papal Universal Jurisdiction, as defined at Vatican Council of 1870 gives him that right, and declares this to be a dogma. If you deny this you are anathema to your church according to those same documents.

Since we already know he does not have that right, we will not agree to it. You can change it.
 
So each Orthodox diocese has a different set of doctrines? It sounds like this is what would happen if each diocese was viewed to have its own Peter.
You can imagine or invent any scenario you wish, but the fact remains that any bishop or diocese that adopts another theology is out of communion.

That’s a fact.

That’s why you are out of communion.
 
So each Orthodox diocese has a different set of doctrines? It sounds like this is what would happen if each diocese was viewed to have its own Peter.
:confused:
No… they are united in the same doctrines & Faith.
 
Papal Universal Jurisdiction, as defined at Vatican Council of 1870 gives him that right, and declares this to be a dogma. If you deny this you are anathema to your church according to those same documents.

Since we already know he does not have that right, we will not agree to it. You can change it.
GIve an example of him** telling us **what do in matters of faith and morals. Popes provide the Truth; we are never coerced into doing anything.
 
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