What is the point of music at Mass?

[benedictgal]

Who is limited? No one is limited to the liturgy planning guide if they (or their pastor) doesn’t want to be. I look at the liturgy guide…sometimes pick what is in there, but most of the time, pick other songs as well. There’s no requirement that someone only follows a liturgy planning guide. OCP simply makes suggestions (yes, some are bad) …they hold no one to following them.

OCP is a publishing house, so of course they will plug their own stuff. Nothing wrong with that. Its up to the parishes to choose it or not choose it.

World library publications pushes their own selections as well. Every song they publish is given an impramatur.

#5 from SPirit and Song is of the Gospel genre, not Jazz. There is a difference. (although some similarities). I’m not arguing that makes it right, just clarifying another inaccuracy.

It was just rather disconcerting to have to listen to that rather than something magnificent like Jesus Christ is Risen Today or The Strife is O’er. It was even worse seeing some of the choir swaying to the music.

The big problem is that OCP defaults a good deal of their composers’ music as the heavily suggested song du joir for the Mass. They don’t take into account the genuine beauty of the Church’s rich treasury. Now, I’m not completely absolving GIA. They have really taken a nose-dive in recent years, but, not to the point of OCP.

Now, as far as the ditty from the Spirit and Song, while it is Gospel, it certainly sounded like it was more appropriate for Bourbon Street than for the Church, especially with the piano, the guitar and the Mahalia Jackson-like voice that sang it. Even one of the priests wasn’t happy with it.

 

[benedictgal]

Because I’m on dialup and my dad needed the phone, I couldn’t clarify my previous post.

My main problem with the entrance hymn, the Gospel song (#5 from Spirit and Song) is that it did not reflect the solemnity and the majesty of Easter. As I noted earlier, while it is a Gospel song, it sounded better suited for something on Bourbon Street than in a church.

The Gospel genre works well for a worship service that is more about spontaneity than about rubrics. In a Catholic setting, it could work for a retreat and some other non-liturgical event. However, much like the Protestant Praise and Worship pop genre, it doesn’t work well within the confines of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is something that is solemn, sacred and majestic. We shouldn’t try to fit square pegs into round holes. Unfortunately, that’s where OCP comes in and tries to mix things that do not go well together.

Even their Spanish selections are very problematic. Simply changing the title from “Hombres Nuevos” to “Danos Un Corazon” doesn’t take away the fact that the hymn is heavily tinged with liberation theology (a heresy declared by the Church). The lyrics are still the same (even though Hombres is now Pueblos).

As far as OCP is concerned, it’s as though they have never even looked at Sacramentum Caritatis. They don’t answer to any real authority; but, for some reason, many people mistakenly believed that the publishing house is some sort of amorphous power that has some ecclesial authority (which it does not) to exert in matters concerning sacred music.

 

[hollybc]

I have said the same thing, why do some Music ministers assume that Joe Pewsitter cannot read music? Lyric sheets are nice for little kids, but come on - let us know the tune.

Unfortunately a lot of music is subject to copyright restrictions. Very often on the back of an octavo there will be a black box containing what the composer/publisher will allowed to be copied. Sometimes just the refrain has notes sometimes notes accompany verses too. —Holly

 

[hollybc]

However, when I was shown the OCP it didn’t make very many allowances for Traditional, Sacred Music. The music director told me that she is limited to only using what is there. OCP seem to enjoy plugging stuff from their aresenal of composers rather than anything that comes from the Church’s complete Treasury of Sacred Music.

Our music director has also told us we are limited. We use OCP Music Issue. I think it comes down to money. The congregation is supposed to sing so we buy Music Issues for all. We can’t deviate too often because to choose something outside of the Music Issue or Missellette would mean photocopying music for congregation (ILLEGAL!) or leaving the congregation out of the singing. So… unless parishes have enough money to buy multiple hymnals containing different styles of music… nobody will be happy! - Holly

 

[agapewolf]

We can’t deviate too often because to choose something outside of the Music Issue or Missellette would mean photocopying music for congregation (ILLEGAL!) or leaving the congregation out of the singing. So… unless parishes have enough money to buy multiple hymnals containing different styles of music… nobody will be happy! - Holly

Copyrights permission can be obtained to copy lyrics and music legally, however it may be expensive (just clarifying…don’t want anyone calling the copyright police on their parish because they copy, but do so legally).

I have my groups often sing songs here or there that are not in the books, but they are very simple melodies and lyrics. The congregation picks it up so easily and sings along. I’d rather them have the words in front of them though.

 

[Phemie]

Copyrights permission can be obtained to copy lyrics and music legally, however it may be expensive (just clarifying…don’t want anyone calling the copyright police on their parish because they copy, but do so legally).

But usually that’s indicated on the copy. When I have something I want to copy I always go to the author for permission. I’ve only been refused once and a very good reason was given. There is usually a stipulation that a note be inserted that reads: “Reprinted with permission from X, Volume 5, Issue 7, July 2007”

 

[kage_ar]

Unfortunately a lot of music is subject to copyright restrictions. Very often on the back of an octavo there will be a black box containing what the composer/publisher will allowed to be copied. Sometimes just the refrain has notes sometimes notes accompany verses too. —Holly

If I were a music director, I would use the hymnals that the Parish owns. They contain hundreds of songs. Should the hymnals contain nothing that is suitable, then, time for a fundraiser to buy new pew hymnals.

 

[johnnykins]

I have said the same thing, why do some Music ministers assume that Joe Pewsitter cannot read music? Lyric sheets are nice for little kids, but come on - let us know the tune.

Some years back at a neighboring parish, the priest, as in the OP, told everyone to sing out. Naturally all we had were lyrics, no music and the piece was unfamiliar and syncopated. NOBODY - including the priest - other than the “choir” sang. It was stupid as well as dreadful.

Like the post above - give us the music if you want us to sing. Be sure it’s the 4 part music - somehow every Protestant church has pew hymnals with 4 parts, but I’ve NEVER seen it in any Catholic Church. If Protestants can follow 4 part music - so can Catholics.
Further - if protestants can afford 4 part hymnals, so can Catholics. If money really is an issue, then DON"T SING. Bad music, with bad singing is an atrocity - and far too common at Mass. It’s a downright embarrassment, often.

Get cantors who can actually sing. That tone deaf cantors regularly “cant” at Mass has frequently be a source of amazement to me.

Sing good music. Let’s have a good old fashioned book burning and burn all the OCP hymnals!!

 

[ForMary]

Our priest today told us “he really wanted to hear everyone sing–to blast all four lungs with the closing hymn.” The problem is no one knew the closing hymn. If we are supposed to lift our voices and hearts in prayer through song, how is this possible when no one knows the music & no one can follow the lead cantor? Do music ministers just worry about how they are sounding instead of leading the congregation in a prayer? Are they doing it for their own self aggrandizement? For the preparation of gifts, the worship aid said we were going to sing “Ode to Joy”. It had the lyrics and notes in it. But then when it came time for the preparation of gifts, the choir sang a completely different song–not giving the congregation the chance to sing. Then the (unknown) Communion songs just had the lyrics, not the notes with it. So there was no way to even try to sing it without the notes being printed there. Then the pastor encourages us all to sing at the end but does he not realize we are not singing because the congregation can’t follow what is going on?

Similar, but different, our new Liturgy/Music Director likes to mix verses, change hymns so to “fully participate” as we are supposed to, you have to read his lips as he is speaking to the choir. …bummer…

 

[thomasf]

Once again, don’t blame the cantor/choir. We don’t pick the Mass settings. We sing what is assigned to us, same as with the hymns. Blame the director of music or the organist if the Mass setting changes at random.

I don’t care who is to blame. Just cut it out!

 

[johnnykins]

Similar, but different, our new Liturgy/Music Director likes to mix verses, change hymns so to “fully participate” as we are supposed to, you have to read his lips as he is speaking to the choir. …bummer…

You’re kidding, right? What a bozo - that will certainly lead to confusion in the choir and silence in the pews.

Where do these people come from and how do they keep their positions? Whenever an incompetent person gets and keeps a job, there is almost always an unsavory explanation, in my experience.

 

[djrakowski]

Here’s my complaint about the music at our church. We have 4 masses per weekend, and usually 4 different cantors or choirs. It bothers me when a particular cantor or choir will change the way the songs or hymns in mass are sung. It is very distressing to be used to singing the Gloria or Lamb of God or whatever song or responsorial one way, and suddenly the new cantor or choir decides to change up the way it’s sung. Or better yet, changes the responsorial altogether. One week we’ll sing the great Amen as “Amen, amen, amen, amen” next week it will be “alleluiah, alleluiah, amen, alleluiah.” Or a particular singer will add pauses or tamborines or bells or whatever to songs that throws the usual singing off. Come on, pick a response and stick to it. It’s no wonder that the people won’t sing in mass. We never know how.

Thomas,

I’m one of the cantors for our Latin Novus Ordo, and our pastor and organist have received complaints similar to yours. If the ordinary (Kyrie, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) are chanted at your parish, there are different settings prescribed for particular days in the liturgical cycle. For example, there’s a setting called “Mass for Sundays in Advent and Lent” (or something along those lines - regardless of title, I know it as Mass XVII in the Gregorian Missal), which is different from the Mass setting used on weekdays in Advent and Lent, or Sundays in Ordinary Time, or Easter Sunday, etc.

People complained after the first Sunday in Advent when we used that setting, because it was different from what they were used to hearing throughout the rest of the year. Perhaps that’s what you experienced?

 

[thomasf]

Thomas,

I’m one of the cantors for our Latin Novus Ordo, and our pastor and organist have received complaints similar to yours. If the ordinary (Kyrie, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) are chanted at your parish, there are different settings prescribed for particular days in the liturgical cycle. For example, there’s a setting called “Mass for Sundays in Advent and Lent” (or something along those lines - regardless of title, I know it as Mass XVII in the Gregorian Missal), which is different from the Mass setting used on weekdays in Advent and Lent, or Sundays in Ordinary Time, or Easter Sunday, etc.

People complained after the first Sunday in Advent when we used that setting, because it was different from what they were used to hearing throughout the rest of the year. Perhaps that’s what you experienced?

I understand that responses and hymns change depending on the liturgical cycle and year and even day of the week. That’s not what I mean.

I’m talking about singing the regular songs and hymns and responses we sing just about every week, changing the beat and rythm and word emphasis. For example, one choir will sing “Gory to God in the hiiiighest, and peace to His people on earth.” Then next week they sing “Glory to God…In the hiiiighest. Glory to God…In the hiiighest. Glory to God…In the highest. And Peace…to His people on earth.”

It’s the same song, different emphasis and beats, etc. And they never tell us when it’s going to change. The church I went to as a kid, the cantor would tell us before mass began when there would be a change, etc. My parish now it changes depending on who exactly is singing at what mass. I can go to a 4:30pm mass saturday night and hear things sung one way, go to 11am mass the next day and it’s totally different. And it sucks, and there’s no wonder why people won’t sing in mass.

Not to mention the music people like to add weird instruments like jingle bells and bongo drums and tamborines at weird times of the year. I’d give anything for some nice old fashion organ music.

 

[Ghoti]

This thread has raised a few questions in my mind.

Like copyright on hymns. I can imagine that there is copyright on most of the hymns in, say, Glory and Praise, which are recent compositions by the likes of Bob Dufford or Gregory Norbet.

But an awful lot of the songs in the Catholic Book of Worship are *ancient *-- some even date back to *before *Vatican II!

Don’t the copyrights on works like those eventually expire? I mean, like Old Hundredth (“All People that on Earth Do Dwell”) dates back to the 16th Century – lyrics and tune. Is there some decrepit 400-year-old hymnist hermit living in a ditch in Dimtwit-upon-Whee getting royalty cheques?

I can imagine a publishing company being able to copyright a particular arrangement. But if it’s an ancient song, and I can whistle it, and you can transcribe it, and Joe Churchpew can hammer out the lyrics on his Underwood, where exactly is the problemo?

And as for copyright – I keep seeing copyright disclaimers on Bibles! Do you pay a fee for each reading, epistle, psalm and gospel?

Maybe that’s the reason King James did his own translation…he figured that *royalty *shouldn’t pay royalty!

 

[Phemie]

This thread has raised a few questions in my mind.

Like copyright on hymns. I can imagine that there is copyright on most of the hymns in, say, Glory and Praise, which are recent compositions by the likes of Bob Dufford or Gregory Norbet.

But an awful lot of the songs in the Catholic Book of Worship are *ancient *-- some even date back to *before *Vatican II!

Don’t the copyrights on works like those eventually expire? I mean, like Old Hundredth (“All People that on Earth Do Dwell”) dates back to the 16th Century – lyrics and tune. Is there some decrepit 400-year-old hymnist hermit living in a ditch in Dimtwit-upon-Whee getting royalty cheques?

I can imagine a publishing company being able to copyright a particular arrangement. But if it’s an ancient song, and I can whistle it, and you can transcribe it, and Joe Churchpew can hammer out the lyrics on his Underwood, where exactly is the problemo?

And as for copyright – I keep seeing copyright disclaimers on Bibles! Do you pay a fee for each reading, epistle, psalm and gospel?

Maybe that’s the reason King James did his own translation…he figured that *royalty *shouldn’t pay royalty!

In CBW III you’ll note that each hymn that is copyrighted is so indicated.

“All People…” is in the public domain but 2 hymns over, same OLD HUNDREDTH tune, “Rejoice in God” has lyrics “Used by permission”.

As for Bibles, the translation is copyrighted.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m talking about singing the regular songs and hymns and responses we sing just about every week, changing the beat and rythm and word emphasis…

It’s the same song, different emphasis and beats, etc. And they never tell us when it’s going to change. The church I went to as a kid, the cantor would tell us before mass began when there would be a change, etc. My parish now it changes depending on who exactly is singing at what mass. I can go to a 4:30pm mass saturday night and hear things sung one way, go to 11am mass the next day and it’s totally different. And it sucks, and there’s no wonder why people won’t sing in mass.

Not to mention the music people like to add weird instruments like jingle bells and bongo drums and tamborines at weird times of the year. I’d give anything for some nice old fashion organ music.

I think I understand what you mean here. I’ve seen this done at other parishes I’ve attended. Thankfully, we don’t do that at my present parish.

There are a few things as to why the musicians and the cantors are performing the same piece of music differently from mass to mass. I say this as a musician and a cantor - so I’m not putting down “my people”. haha!

1. The musicians may not be good musicians or even musicians at all. I’ve cantored with many wonderful organists and other musicians, but I’ve also cantored with some downright hacks and frauds. Sometimes it’s because the parish can’t afford anyone better and the person playing or singing is doing his/her best.
   Some of these may have had a little training, but not enough for them to be truly competent. That means, they don’t know how to keep rhythm, not knowing the difference between an 1/8 note or a quarter note, or what the “rest” means in the music. Many times, they don’t take any money for it, so it’s hard to tell them no, especially if the pastor is a meek and mild guy.

• Sometimes, cantors just have nice voices, but don’t know how to
  read music and perform the hymns by rote and not by what is written on paper. (Thus the stereotype of “dumb singers” - it’s one of the greatest compliments in the world when an instrumentalist musician compliments a singer’s musicianship - more so than their voice - at least for me.) Sometimes these cantors sing it how they think it is to be sung or performed. If the organist or the music director doesn’t take the time to teach the cantors exactly how the music is to be sung, there will be differences in how it is “performed”.
• Sometimes, the “musician” deludes himself into thinking that he’s good with absolutely no humility and no sense of constructive self-criticism. Many times they are lousy musicians or not even musicians at all. But he knows how to play the game in buttering up the right people in order to keep his job. They take advantage of nice pastors who might not like to fire people, and they know how to BS their way through life and plant themselves in a position for a long time before people finally get tired of the lies and poor performance.

**Note: ** This is not the norm – I’ve just been
unfortunate enough to have to deal with it personally and know other colleagues who have as well.

• Then, there are unfortunately some musicians who forget that the hymns are for everyone to sing and not a place for artistic license in changing the rhythms or adding notes here and there for their own satisfaction. They forget that you should just sing
  or play what is on the paper and what everyone in the congregation is used to singing. If they want to make their own artistic changes, they can do it for a sacred music concert or do it in the congregation pews. I’ve heard plenty of people do their own thing in the congregation, like adding little fiorituras within a hymn or making their own harmony to it (my dad loves to harmonize hymns, especially when it sits a little to high), but they are not leading the congregation in song and have that sometime horrible thing called a microphone and sound system blasting into the congregation.

Note – I said “sometime”. Mics can be and are beneficial, but sometimes they are too close to them, or the people in the back turn them up to high OR too low where you can’t even hear them.

 

[Phemie]

It must be remembered that in small parishes you have to take what you get in terms of music at liturgy.

The other day the de facto DM approached me to ask
“Should we sing this piece this way or that way?”
“Er, how about as it’s written?”
“Oh, I don’t want to confuse the choir who are used to singing it their own way.”
Okaaay, then.

I’ve never studied music but when I’m holding a hymnal I can read the notation enough to know if there should be an instrumental segment, a whole note, an eighth, etc. Rarely does the choir sing what is there and that’s very confusing & frustrating for anyone who can read music.

 

[agapewolf]

I’ve never studied music but when I’m holding a hymnal I can read the notation enough to know if there should be an instrumental segment, a whole note, an eighth, etc. Rarely does the choir sing what is there and that’s very confusing & frustrating for anyone who can read music.

Nah, only type “a” folks.

Doesn’t bother me in the least, and I have a music degree. It would frustrate me to have what is sung constantly changed, cause you wouldn’t know what to sing, but if it stays the same, and its easier to sing, fine with me.

Sometimes a rhythm can be simplified for ease, and its better than what is written.

 

[Phemie]

Nah, only type “a” folks.

Doesn’t bother me in the least, and I have a music degree. It would frustrate me to have what is sung constantly changed, cause you wouldn’t know what to sing, but if it stays the same, and its easier to sing, fine with me.

Sometimes a rhythm can be simplified for ease, and its better than what is written.

Well, it’s not consistent. They never sing certain hymns the same way twice. It’s not quite as bad today as when we used to have ‘family Mass’ where they sang the Lord’s Prayer to the tune of “I Don’t Know How to Love Him” from Jesus Christ Superstar. That was a challenge!

 

[Ghoti]

Well, it’s not consistent. They never sing certain hymns the same way twice. It’s not quite as bad today as when we used to have ‘family Mass’ where they sang the Lord’s Prayer to the tune of “I Don’t Know How to Love Him” from Jesus Christ Superstar. That was a challenge!

I actually liked that rendition. I heard it as the Lord’s Prayer before I knew it came from Jesus Christ Superstar. We had a teenage girls’ choir, and they had very soft, gentle voices. I really used to like it when they sang at Mass. They also did very nice versions of the softer Christmas carols. I also remember the church itself: a little basement affair in a school building, while they were saving up money to build a church.

I dunno. Maybe things look better thru the lenses of nostalgia.