What is the point of officially changing rites?

[jimkhong]

If the parent is Latin Catholic and the child is an infant, then the validly baptized infant is ascribed to the Latin Catholic church.

Latin Canon Law
Can. 111 §1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

Can. 112 §2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.

The Canon refers to a child baptised in the Catholic Church, not one baptised outside the Catholic Communion. It doesn’t make sense that we could have a Catholic father being indifferent as to the faith of the person baptising his child just because the child would automatically be Latin Catholic.

 

[Vico]

The Canon refers to a child baptised in the Catholic Church, not one baptised outside the Catholic Communion. It doesn’t make sense that we could have a Catholic father being indifferent as to the faith of the person baptising his child just because the child would automatically be Latin Catholic.

Note that the rite used for baptism is not the significant factor for ascription: Can. 112 §2. staing that “The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.”

One is baptized only once into the Catholic Church and that may be through any valid baptism, even by a non-Christian.

 

[jimkhong]

Note that the rite used for baptism is not the significant factor for ascription: Can. 112 §2. staing that “The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.”

One is baptized only once into the Catholic Church and that may be through any valid baptism, even by a non-Christian.

I understand all that but the point is that the baby was baptised in another communion: how can we then say that the baby is a Catholic? Putting aside the point of a different rite and just apply a dose of common sense: If I choose to have a baby baptised outside the Catholic communion, doesn’t it mean the baby is NOT a Catholic, whatever the rite?

If that is the case that I can declare the baby Catholic even if baptised outside the Catholic communion, I can see no end to abuse: if I have a dispute and the Church refused to baptised my baby, I can go to the neighbouring church whose doctrines diverge significantly from the Catholic Church, get my baby baptised there and I can declare my baby Catholic. It just doesn’t make sense.

All the canons you raised deal with situations of inter-rite relationships WITHIN the Catholic Church, not when dealing with non-Catholic churches, which is the situation I raised.

 

[wynd]

One reason, that I don’t think was mentioned in this thread, is that, canonically, one is still obliged to follow the norms of one’s Church. So it may be hard to juggle different calendars and disciplines when on is a member of the parish of another Church.

I’ve read that the first step to changing enrollment is to adopt the life and spirituality of the destination church as your own (however long that might take). How can you do that while being required to follow the norms of the old church?

 

[Vico]

I understand all that but the point is that the baby was baptised in another communion: how can we then say that the baby is a Catholic? Putting aside the point of a different rite and just apply a dose of common sense: If I choose to have a baby baptised outside the Catholic communion, doesn’t it mean the baby is NOT a Catholic, whatever the rite?

If that is the case that I can declare the baby Catholic even if baptised outside the Catholic communion, I can see no end to abuse: if I have a dispute and the Church refused to baptised my baby, I can go to the neighbouring church whose doctrines diverge significantly from the Catholic Church, get my baby baptised there and I can declare my baby Catholic. It just doesn’t make sense.

All the canons you raised deal with situations of inter-rite relationships WITHIN the Catholic Church, not when dealing with non-Catholic churches, which is the situation I raised.

I am just going back to your first post to me on it:

• The father is a Polish Catholic with baby he had baptised in a Coptic church.
• How does this Polish baby get his situation regularised?
• Can the Polish dad get the baby accepted into the Catholic Church?
• …would the baby need to be accepted as a Coptic Catholic first then change rite into a Roman Catholic?
• …can he be accepted directly as a Roman Catholic?

The Catholic parent demonstrates the intention of the child to be Catholic by bringing it to the Catholic church when it is an infant, since he speaks for the infant. He is raising the child as a Catholic as required in canon law for a Catholic. The father should present the Coptic baptism certificate to the pastor of the Catholic parish so there is an official record of it in the Catholic parish.

CIC Can. 97 §2. A minor before the completion of the seventh year is called an infant and is considered not responsible for oneself (non sui compos). With the completion of the seventh year, however, a minor is presumed to have the use of reason.

 

[angelic06]

Exceptions for observation of holy days and penitential periods are made for members of mixed Catholic sui iuris churches in one family, so they may all observe the same.

Can you cite this please?

I remember either the Holy See or the USCCB publishing something on this matter in the early 2000s, but I do not know the name of the document, and so far, my message to the USCCB on precisely this matter about two weeks ago has been unanswered. I want to have something concrete to link to on a Catholic dating site/forum, so that I can reassure my fellow Catholics of any Catholic church sui juris not to be afraid of entering multi jurisdiction Catholic marriages, especially for those Catholics who might think that marriage to a non-Catholic is their only option. Marrying a fellow believer of the Holy Catholic Faith but who worships slightly differently provides some with another choice. (I do what little is in my reach to advance marriage between two Catholics as much as possible, as I am a firm believer in the family as the “domestic Church”.)

 

[angelic06]

If there is anyone knowledgable on the matter I just posted above and can cite their sources, please respond. (Read the quoted portion first.) I really do need a source from authority, for the reasons I posted above.

 

[Vico]

Can you cite this please?

I remember either the Holy See or the USCCB publishing something on this matter in the early 2000s, but I do not know the name of the document, and so far, my message to the USCCB on precisely this matter about two weeks ago has been unanswered. I want to have something concrete to link to on a Catholic dating site/forum, so that I can reassure my fellow Catholics of any Catholic church sui juris not to be afraid of entering multi jurisdiction Catholic marriages, especially for those Catholics who might think that marriage to a non-Catholic is their only option. Marrying a fellow believer of the Holy Catholic Faith but who worships slightly differently provides some with another choice. (I do what little is in my reach to advance marriage between two Catholics as much as possible, as I am a firm believer in the family as the “domestic Church”.)

The liberty is not mentioned for Latin Catholics only Easter Catholics.

The following canon law applies to the Eastern Catholics (CCEO)

Canon 883

1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.
2. In families in which the parents are enrolled in different Churches sui iuris, it is permitted to observe the norms of one or the other Church, in regard to feast days and days of penance.

Canon 31

No one can presume in any way to induce the Christian faithful to transfer to another Church sui iuris.

Canon 32

1. No one can validly transfer to another Church sui iuris without the consent of the Apostolic See.
2. In the case of Christian faithful of an eparchy of a certain Church sui iuris who petition to transfer to another Church sui iuris which has its own eparchy in the same territory, this consent of the Apostolic See is presumed, provided that the eparchial bishops of both eparchies consent to the transfer in writing.

Canon 33

A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 34

If the parents, or the Catholic spouse in the case of a mixed marriage, transfer to another Church sui iuris, children under fourteen years old by the law itself are enrolled in the same Church; if in a marriage of Catholics only one parent transfers to another Church sui iuris, the children transfer only if both parents consent. Upon completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children can return to the original Church sui iuris.

Latin CIC with changes made by Moto Proprio De concordia inter Codices May 31, 2016

Can. 111
§ 1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the father belongs.
§ 2. If only one of the parents be catholic, the baptized is ascribed to the Church to which the catholic parent pertains.
§ 3. Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely choose to be baptized in the Latin Church or in another Church sui iuris; in that case, the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Can. 112
§1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another Church sui iuris:

1° a person who has obtained permission from the Apostolic See;
2° a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;
3° before the completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 as well as, in a mixed marriage, the children of the Catholic party who has legitimately transferred to another Church sui iuris; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they can return to the Latin Church.
§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church
§3. All those transfers to another Church sui iuris have force from the moment of the declaration of the fact before the local Ordinary of the Church or the proper pastor or priest by delegation and two witnesses, unless a rescript of the Apostolic See provides otherwise; and [this is to be] noted in the baptismal register.​

 

[Yeoman]

I don’t know if this fits, but a seminarian from our Parish, while in the seminary to become a Latin Rite priest met a Catholic girl and dropped out of the seminary.

Now, a little over a year later, he’s finishing up in the Eastern Rite. Without it really being expressly said, I think his desire is to be a priest, but to be a married priest.

This usually sparks some debate over this, but fwiw I’m familiar with a Latin Rite Catholic who was entertaining entering the priesthood, and who was married, and who contacted somebody official from the Eastern Rite with that expressed goal and was informed it would be no problem.

 

[Peter_J]

After many conversations about this, I’d say that it’s up to each individual to decide whether there is – for him or her – a point to changing.

 

[Vico]

Can you cite this please?

I remember either the Holy See or the USCCB publishing something on this matter in the early 2000s, but I do not know the name of the document, and so far, my message to the USCCB on precisely this matter about two weeks ago has been unanswered. I want to have something concrete to link to on a Catholic dating site/forum, so that I can reassure my fellow Catholics of any Catholic church sui juris not to be afraid of entering multi jurisdiction Catholic marriages, especially for those Catholics who might think that marriage to a non-Catholic is their only option. Marrying a fellow believer of the Holy Catholic Faith but who worships slightly differently provides some with another choice. (I do what little is in my reach to advance marriage between two Catholics as much as possible, as I am a firm believer in the family as the “domestic Church”.)

I referred to another manual, Comparative Sacramental Discipline in the CCEO and CIC, p. 38, footnote 89, that discusses pastoral issues which states that "This provision comes from CCEO and fill a lacuna in the law that the CIC created in canon 111 §1 which reads, “Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs. [emphasis mine]” CCEO canon 29 supplies for the lacuna created by CIC canon 111, §1 which allows parents of different Churches sui iuris to agree to have their children become members of the mother’s Church sui iuris if she is not Latin Catholic. This situation was not included in the Latin code.

 

[ziapueblo]

I’m not sure if this has been asked but lets say that a Latin Catholic family, who has not changed rites, has been attending an Eastern Catholic Church for years, let say Byzantine. Can said family baptize their child in the Byzantine Church they attend even though the are still canonically Latin? I would assume, if so, the child would be of the Latin Church because of the parents?

Hope my question makes sense

Thanks,

 

[Vico]

I’m not sure if this has been asked but lets say that a Latin Catholic family, who has not changed rites, has been attending an Eastern Catholic Church for years, let say Byzantine. Can said family baptize their child in the Byzantine Church they attend even though the are still canonically Latin? I would assume, if so, the child would be of the Latin Church because of the parents?

Hope my question makes sense

Thanks,

Both Catholic then the infant will be ascribed to the Latin Church. Our Byzantine Catholic Priest said he must get approvals before baptizing Latin infants, and he does not give then Chrysmation or Communion at that time, in keeping with the Latin sacramental discipline.

 

[ziapueblo]

Both Catholic then the infant will be ascribed to the Latin Church. Our Byzantine Catholic Priest said he must get approvals before baptizing Latin infants, and he does not give then Chrysmation or Communion at that time, in keeping with the Latin sacramental discipline.

Thanks!