What is the point?

[Clevus]

Maybe not directly related, but there’s a virtue that is easily missed also:

“Fear of the Lord”, or “Fear of God”.

When it is said of a man, “he has no fear of God” - that says something (people don’t speak like that much anymore, but it was common at one time).

Fear of God, even in a secular or atheist sense would be something like “reverence for what is greater than himself”.

 

[minkymurph]

Of course I understand them. If they would realize that “free will” is not an absolute goal, that it needs to be tempered, then they could start to present the question: “why did God not eliminate the excessive freedom?”. And that would be a criticism of God, which they are unable or unwilling to undertake.

I wouldn’t say free will is the absolute goal. The absolute goal in terms of what God desires for us is to acquire very the nature of God - be God-like - of our own free will. If God eliminated the excess of freedom, we would not free will but a given will. In which case we could never transcend to be God-like as God does not have a given will. That the best I can do in terms of why did God not eliminate excessive freedom.

Those who acquire the nature of God in their earthly life are deemed Saints. Most of aren’t Saints.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

I wouldn’t say free will is the absolute goal. The absolute goal in terms of what God desires for us is to acquire very the nature of God - be God-like - of our own free will.

That is just a hypothesis. It would be nice if you guys and gals would not dare to declare: “THIS is what God wants!”. No one is qualified to speak for God.

If God eliminated the excess of freedom, we would not free will but a given will. In which case we could never transcend to be God-like as God does not have a given will. That the best I can do in terms of why did God not eliminate excessive freedom.

Even if that would make sense, it would be a Pyrrhic victory. Millions of people suffering, so that a handful would become “saints”?

Those who acquire the nature of God in their earthly life are deemed Saints. Most of aren’t Saints.

Saints are simply very good people. And there is nothing impossible to imbue everyone with a good disposition, so that no one would ever desire to cause misery and mayhem.

 

[minkymurph]

That is just a hypothesis. It would be nice if you guys and gals would not dare to declare: “THIS is what God wants!”. No one is qualified to speak for God.

Is a hypothesis and a belief the same thing? If it is, in my view it’s as good a hypothesis as many others.

What one desires and what one wants are two different things. I used the word ‘desire.’
I believe what God desires for all humankind is Sainthood. You are free not to believe that.

Even if that would make sense, it would be a Pyrrhic victory. Millions of people suffering, so that a handful would become “saints”?

Sorry I thought you were up on Catholic theology. We are all Saints, but few perfect Sainthood in this life. Most of us perfect it in the next. To my knowledge Protestants reject this as they do not believe in purgatory.

Saints are simply very good people. And there is nothing impossible to imbue everyone with a good disposition, so that no one would ever desire to cause misery and mayhem.

We are imbued with a good disposition. The worst of criminals can do kind things, show generosity, and demonstrate various other desirable attributes.

 

[minkymurph]

Even if that would make sense, it would be a Pyrrhic victory. Millions of people suffering, so that a handful would become “saints”?

I reckon had God created us so we could not use ‘free will to excess’ sooner or later someone, somewhere would develop the capacity to. It could only be prevented by direct and pro-active intervention on God’s part. Such an existence surely must be questionable?

 

[tonyrey]

Saints are simply very good people.

On the contrary saints are not born saints. They have to be heroic and fight against temptation and endure suffering and injustice. They have to exercise their will-power and overcome the natural tendency to take the easy way out. Otherwise they wouldn’t deserve to be singled out as exceptional followers of Christ.

And there is nothing impossible to imbue everyone with a good disposition, so that no one would ever desire to cause misery and mayhem.

If everyone were imbued with a good disposition they wouldn’t be responsible for their behaviour or capable of developing will-power. They would be spoilt brats who have everything on a plate and are incapable of choosing to be unselfish because of the way they are programmed. The more people are given the less they appreciate what they have…

 

[minkymurph]

On the contrary saints are not born saints. They have to be heroic and fight against temptation and endure suffering and injustice. They have to exercise their will-power and overcome the natural tendency to take the easy way out. Otherwise they wouldn’t deserve to be singled out as exceptional followers of Christ.

Yep. :yup:

If everyone were imbued with a good disposition they wouldn’t be responsible for their behaviour or capable of developing will-power. They would be spoilt brats who have everything on a plate and are incapable of choosing to be unselfish because of the way they are programmed. The more people are given the less they appreciate what they have…

Never thought of it that way - but I like it.

Pretty much what’s wrong with people today. I have fond memories of woman in her 30’s who ran out of the pizza parlour where I worked in tears when she was told she could not have a kids meal.

MAKE THE WORLD THE WAY I WANT IT TO BE!!! :crying:

 

[minkymurph]

Yep. :yup:

Never thought of it that way - but I like it.

Pretty much what’s wrong with people today. I have fond memories of woman in her 30’s who ran out of the pizza parlour where I worked in tears when she was told she could not have a kids meal.

MAKE THE WORLD THE WAY I WANT IT TO BE!!! :crying:

Forgot to add - the woman’s friend shouted after her, ‘Where are you going? What’s wrong?’ She replied, ‘I can’t have what I want and I can’t handle it!!!’

 

[tonyrey]

Never thought of it that way - but I like it.

Pretty much what’s wrong with people today. I have fond memories of woman in her 30’s who ran out of the pizza parlour where I worked in tears when she was told she could not have a kids meal.

MAKE THE WORLD THE WAY I WANT IT TO BE!!! :crying:

Regardless of whether it is possible or desirable.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

I reckon had God created us so we could not use ‘free will to excess’ sooner or later someone, somewhere would develop the capacity to. It could only be prevented by direct and pro-active intervention on God’s part. Such an existence surely must be questionable?

Why would it be? It is an inferior solution, but still much better than allowing a psychopath go on a killing rampage. A better action is nip the behavior in the bud.

The best solution is to create everyone with the proper mindset, so that the undesirable behavior does not even cross their mind. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

 

[e_c]

No moral agency, no graced, free, and meritorious cooperation with God’s own freedom and grace and merits. IOW, no rational love, no glory.

Our freedom is not total. It is not the same as God’s.

Bañez. Etc.

 

[tonyrey]

No moral agency, no graced, free, and meritorious cooperation with God’s own freedom and grace and merits. IOW, no rational love, no glory.

Our freedom is not total. It is not the same as God’s.

Bañez. Etc.

As I pointed out:

“If everyone were imbued with a good disposition they wouldn’t be responsible for their behaviour or capable of developing will-power. They would be spoilt brats who have everything on a plate and are incapable of choosing to be unselfish because of the way they are programmed. The more people are given the less they appreciate what they have…”

 

[minkymurph]

Why would it be? It is an inferior solution, but still much better than allowing a psychopath go on a killing rampage. A better action is nip the behavior in the bud.

The best solution is to create everyone with the proper mindset, so that the undesirable behavior does not even cross their mind. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

You raise an interesting point about psychopath’s. We know psychopath’s carry a ‘warrior’ gene. How this gene exhibits it’s effects are directly related to their upbringing - particularly the father. Those who carry the 'warrior’gene who have a stable upbringing and a good relationship with their father go on to be hero’s. This demonstrates it is not sufficient to control the internal alone, and under different conditions a ‘bad’ gene can be a good one. The making of a psychopath can be nipped in the bud through creating the proper mindset via external influences, but it is not desirable to eradicate the ‘warrior’ gene as then we would have no ‘heroes.’

.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201104/triggering-the-warrior-gene-in-villain-or-hero

 

[minkymurph]

Why would it be? It is an inferior solution, but still much better than allowing a psychopath go on a killing rampage. A better action is nip the behavior in the bud.

The best solution is to create everyone with the proper mindset, so that the undesirable behavior does not even cross their mind. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

Would the required ‘proper mindset’ not subject to application in accordance with circumstances and developments? How many things would never have to cross anyone’s mind throughout the centuries?

Perhaps the only way the proper mindset could be maintained throughout generations is through encountering situations not encountered before where we are must make a choice based on knowledge and experience? Maybe we need to ‘get it wrong’ in order to know how to ‘get it right?’