What is the proof that Jesus started the Catholic Church

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When you say the Catholic Church gave us the Bible, can you explain further how?
It looks like you have many questions about the Church that Jesus founded. You should start a separate thread for each one of them. Did you just enter the Catholic Church?

Here is the section on Sacred Scripture in the Catechism.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

And here is a very good book about how the Catholic Church gave us the Bible…

shop.catholic.com/where-we-got-the-bible.html
 
Okay…follow this closely…this is the answer.

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

As early as AD 107, those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote,

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

One other interesting note, the Clement just mentioned as the fourth pope of the Catholic Church is the same Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians 4:3.

Protestant Scholar on the use of the Proper Name "Catholic"

One Protestant author who is honest about this history is the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.

“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).
 
Thank you for being so helpful.

How do we know the Catholic Church hasn’t altered any of Jesus’s teachings?

How do we know what the truth is since apparently there are books that have been left out of the Bible?

What’s up with this?..

“But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.”
Okay…follow this closely…this is the answer.

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

As early as AD 107, those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote,

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

One other interesting note, the Clement just mentioned as the fourth pope of the Catholic Church is the same Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians 4:3.

Protestant Scholar on the use of the Proper Name "Catholic"

One Protestant author who is honest about this history is the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.

“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).
 
Matthew 16:18

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Either

A. Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church, just as He said He would.

or

B. Jesus Christ was a liar.

I choose A.

Which one do you choose?
 
How do we know what the truth is since apparently there are books that have been left out of the Bible?
Are you talking about the books that were removed by the protestants?
What’s up with this?..
“But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.”
Not only that but St. Peter denied Jesus three times yet Jesus still made him the head of His Church on earth. What’s up with that? And St. Paul… He wasn’t a nice fellow either before his conversion. And when Jesus knocked him for a loop and asked Paul why are you persecuting Me, He was talking about His Church…
 
I am aware that Protestants left books out but didn’t the Catholic Church leave books out and if so, why?

And i’m confused by your response to Paul confronting Peter.

:confused:
Are you talking about the books that were removed by the protestants?

Not only that but St. Peter denied Jesus three times yet Jesus still made him the head of His Church on earth. What’s up with that? And St. Paul… He wasn’t a nice fellow either before his conversion. And when Jesus knocked him for a loop and asked Paul why are you persecuting Me, He was talking about His Church…
 
Thank you for being so helpful.

What’s up with this?..

"But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face,
Peter screwed up. But there’s a little more to it than that.

On Peter, Paul and Hypocrisy

In their effort to deny the primacy of Peter and the doctrine of papal infallibility, many non-Catholics point to Paul’s rebuke of Peter over the issue of eating with Gentiles as recorded in the Paul’s Letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In this passage, we see that Paul opposed Peter for not practicing what he preached. Although Peter may have been wrong to draw back from eating with the Gentile believers, we must note that is apparently James, and not Peter, who was the leader of the “circumcision group” in Jerusalem. Thus, those who assert that it was James, and not Peter, who was the real leader of the Church must answer for this error. However, Peter’s actions do not constitute formal teaching, and the doctrine of infallibility does not apply to Peter’s private opinions or behavior. Therefore, this passage does nothing to disprove either Peter’s primacy or the doctrine of papal infallibility. Peter, like his successors, was not above reproach nor impeccable.

However, it must also be noted that Paul was not above taking prudent measures out of fear of those who held to the tradition of circumcision, either. One such measure is found in the following passage:

Acts 16:1-3
1He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul wrote that “circumcision means nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 6:15). Moreover, in the same letter in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy and boasted of having opposed Peter to his face, he writes the following:

Galatians 5:2-3
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Imagine how Timothy must have felt when he first heard these words. He had let himself be circumcised by the very man who condemned the practice. Was Christ of no value to Timothy at all as a result of being circumcised?

This was not the only time that Paul had acted out of fear of the Jews. Later in the book of Acts, we find the following:

Acts 21:17-26
17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Clearly, the brothers in Jerusalem were concerned that some harm might come to Paul from those who knew that Paul taught against circumcision. Paul agreed to purify himself according to Jewish customs and to pay the expenses of those who were purified along with him rather than openly admit that circumcision was of no value. Was this a wise course of action? Assuredly as subsequent events indicate.

However, it cannot be denied that Paul was preaching one thing (at least in private to Gentile Christians) while practicing another—the very thing he accused Peter of doing.
 
If you want secular, Encyclopedia Britannica Online says Catholic Church traces it’s history to Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The old Encyclopedia Britannicas, in hardcover I have been told, started it’s section on Catholicism with the words “the Church that Jesus founded.”
 
Most of the evidence for the authenticity of the Catholic Church is found, not in scripture, but in history. If one digs far back to the earliest Christians, he/she would discover beliefs that are Catholic in origin.

The bible is not meant to be a replacement for our brains. Like all other history books, it must be used to supplement knowledge. It cannot be used as the sole rule of truth. Many people make the mistake of ignoring the cultural contexts behind each bible verse.
 
I am aware that Protestants left books out but didn’t the Catholic Church leave books out and if so, why?

And i’m confused by your response to Paul confronting Peter.

:confused:
Hi Brandon, the Church established by Jesus is the final arbiter on the faith (unsurprisingly, since the Church is Christ manifest here on earth). As Paul writes in 1 Tim 3:15, the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. Moreover, Jesus entrusted the apostles of his Church the authority to bind and loose (Matt 16:19; 18:18). Consequently, it is the successors of the apostles who can establish the canon of Scripture, where some books were left out for various reasons, such as not being used in the liturgy, pseudepigraphical texts (fake authorship), heretical content, etc.
 
I’m looking for actual historical evidence outside of the Bible/inside the Bible that Jesus actually started a Catholic Church as we know it today.

Can you point me to the scripture that shows that Jesus intended to start a church and where it says he intended it to be the Catholic Church?

I do not doubt that A church existed. But why do people think that the Catholic Church has the monopoly on Jesus? Where is the proof of such a claim?
Matt 16. Jesus tells Peter he is the rock and on this rock he will build the church.

Then in Matt 18, Jesus tells us that this church can settle disputes among believers. He tells them that if someone doesn’t listen to the church that they should be cast out.

Then in John 20 he gives the apostles authority to forgive or not forgive sins on his behalf.

In Matt 25, he gives the great commission and tells them all to go out and preach DNS baptize people.

In John 17:21 he prays that all his followers will be unified and one. That is his desire. That is what Catholic means.

We see the church from the get go practice this. The book of acts shows us that The church had authority.

In acts 15, a pastoral decision is reached on an issue and a letter is sent to every church in every town telling them that this is what is to be done.

There was one church, it had authority and custody of the apostolic faith given by Christ and the disciples and it was passed down to others to carry that faith throughout the ages.

Protestants left this authority and said we want to create our own religion based on our opinions of the Bible.

This happened throughout history and we called it heresies of different sorts. Today we are more charitable to our Protestant brothers and don’t call them heretics but the principle is the same. They left the bounds of the apostolic faith.

It would be like reading in the Bible that Paul and the apostles decided a matter or taught “A” and some pastor in a church nearby said no I disagree and won’t teach that, and Paul was just ok with it.

This happened actually in the New Testsment several times and the dissenters were rebuked. That’s what most of Paul’s letters are.

But today, Protestants do this all the time whenever they split, and they are just ok with it. Catholics aren’t since the church never worked that way.
 
If you want secular, Encyclopedia Britannica Online says Catholic Church traces it’s history to Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The old Encyclopedia Britannicas, in hardcover I have been told, started it’s section on Catholicism with the words “the Church that Jesus founded.”
You beat me to this. But this book is not catholic, yet it states that the Catholic Church was started in times of the apostles. Can not be any more clear.
 
Thank you for being so helpful.

How do we know the Catholic Church hasn’t altered any of Jesus’s teachings?
."
Because Jesus promised it would not happen.

John 14

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you.

I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. (‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭16-19, 26-27‬ NASB)
 
I’m looking for actual historical evidence outside of the Bible/inside the Bible that Jesus actually started a Catholic Church as we know it today.

Can you point me to the scripture that shows that Jesus intended to start a church and where it says he intended it to be the Catholic Church?

I do not doubt that A church existed. But why do people think that the Catholic Church has the monopoly on Jesus? Where is the proof of such a claim?
Start with matt 16…where Jesus tells Peter he will be the rock on which the church of Jesus will be built. And who has a a claim to the lineage of bishops fromPeter to today asside from the CC.?
 
How do we know the Catholic Church hasn’t altered any of Jesus’s teachings?
Brandon,

Randy has already given you some very good - and very thorough! - responses to your questions, so I don’t need to repeat them. However, I didn’t see anyone address this particular question of yours. So, I thought I’d give it a go…

It’s a good question – if we can agree that faith in Christ is good, and we can see that the Church was intended by Christ, how can we be sure that what started off good hasn’t gone off the rails? The answer is simple: Jesus didn’t just give the Church authority, He gave it His proxy. That is, Jesus didn’t just say, “here’s my book of rules; make sure you follow them”… what He said was, “what you say, goes – your rules on earth are rules I’ll agree to in heaven” (see Mt 16 – it’s the notion of ‘binding and loosing’ with respect to both earth and heaven).

It’s the same as if you took a job as a babysitter, and your boss told you, “the kids should go to bed by 9. They shouldn’t have any candy before bed.” Then, she tells her children, “listen to what Brandon tells you – what he says, goes!” At 8:45, then, the kids say, “we want popcorn! Make us popcorn!” and you reply, “sorry… no popcorn – you’re going to bed in 15 minutes, and that’s not good!” At that point, they could turn to you and say, “hey! You’ve altered Mom’s teachings! She only said ‘no candy before bed’ and you’ve turned it into ‘no popcorn before bed’, too!” At that point, you would be completely within your rights to say, “yes, but she also said ‘what Brandon says, goes’, so… no popcorn!”

And, at that point, you wouldn’t be altering what she said, but instead, simply following it!

Hope this helps…!

Blessings,
G.
 
Can you provide some actual non-Catholic evidence to support the claim that Jesus started a Catholic Church?
You didn’t specify you were looking for non-Catholic sources. Anyway I see many posters have given you good answers.
I never said that history meant nothing to me. Not sure why you have implied that.
No you didn’t say that. But you ignored poster davidv response that the answer is in history and repeated your question to him. It sort of gave you away. It didn’t help davidv understand why his response is no good to you. It IS a historical fact. So if history is no good to you, that lead me to asked you what would constitute proof acceptable to you. So now it seems a non-catholic history is proof and a catholic proof is not. That is strange behaviour for a Catholic which you listed you are. Isn’t it?
 
How rude. Can people just answer the OP question without posing a retaliatory question or being a smart alec?

Not every Catholic including me, is as knowledgeable as some of you are, nor as haughty. We come on here to learn more about the faith.

He asked for non-Catholic evidence that Christ started the Church, just provide it. No need to question his motives.

Good to see some of you answered the OP questions.
 
The answers you seek will be found through prayer. Jesus said in the bible “on this rock, I will build my church”. His intention was to draw people to him, to show them how to save their souls from eternal fires. He gave himself up for us. The people who followed him followed his teachings and were guided by the Holy Spirit to write the bible to teach us how to follow in his footsteps. His apostles followed his lead and thus was born the church. Catholics don’t hold the monopoly on Jesus, anyone who chooses to know Him can- you just have to open yourself up and give yourself to Him.

If you truly want answers- TRULY- put some work into it. Grab a rosary and give our Blessed Mother 9 days of rosaries- she wont let you down.
 
You have not yet really explained why you are asking this question. If you are engaged in some debate on a non-Catholic site, there will be no end to the questions you may have because these sites are basically of a sophist bent. Their object is to overwhelm you with questions so that you will give up your faith in dispair. You do not need to answer them at all if that is the case, and that will become evident soon on in the debate. Instead, you should read your Catechism and hold fast to the faith you were given.

And as to those who are demanding you use non-Catholic sources, who do they quote to defend their own faith, is it not their own biased non-Catholic sources?

It looks to me like you need a better grounding in your own faith.

But here is a good answer to some of your questions.
newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

Pax
Linus2nd
 
How rude. Can people just answer the OP question without posing a retaliatory question or being a smart alec?

Not every Catholic including me, is as knowledgeable as some of you are, nor as haughty. We come on here to learn more about the faith.

He asked for non-Catholic evidence that Christ started the Church, just provide it. No need to question his motives.

Good to see some of you answered the OP questions.
In general, you are correct. However, if you look at his other post it begins, “Constantine founded the catholic church. Christ founded HIS CHURCH, not the catholic church.” one can reasonably think that he’s not starting with an innocent question, but a loaded question for which he already has answers and I think a case can be made in those circumstances that it is reasonable to ask him to lay all the cards on the table.

Even Our Lord wanted to know the basis of the question asked Him in one case:
33 Pilate therefore went into the hall again, and called Jesus, and said to him: Art thou the king of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered: Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or have others told it thee of me?
 
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