What is the pull of Islam?

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Montalban said:
One of the things in Islam is it’s not your fault.

If you rape a woman, it’s her fault for being there.

If you blow up a bus, it’s their fault for not converting.

If you shoot an old nun in the back, it’s her fault for someone else insulting Muhammed.
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Good point. One guy I know will even go so far as to say that God “created some evil” in all of us, so the bad things you do are basically just predestined. And why don’t you have to be punished for these things in the afterlife? Oh yeah, because you’re a Muslim that’s all that matters. To Muslims, dying in the state of “shirk” (basically being a non-muslim, but characterized as "associating partners with God) is the one unforgivable sin. Everything else is negotiable.
 
exoflare said:
Good point. One guy I know will even go so far as to say that God “created some evil” in all of us, so the bad things you do are basically just predestined. And why don’t you have to be punished for these things in the afterlife? Oh yeah, because you’re a Muslim that’s all that matters. To Muslims, dying in the state of “shirk” (basically being a non-muslim, but characterized as "associating partners with God) is the one unforgivable sin. Everything else is negotiable.
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Islam’s god reminds me a lot like the Greek pagan gods. The Greek gods used to mess about in human affairs and there was no real ‘justice’ to it, it was like we were here for their amusement. And so it is in Islam, a really cruel and evil god who may save some just people.

And getting back to negation of responsibility, that’s what they do with Muhammed and his relations with a child - like they try to point out that ‘no one objected to the marriage’ as if popular opinion is the ultimate source for morality.
 
rien said:
Very good point.
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Yes, but you can’t judge a religion by its unfaithful members, even if those are in some places the majority.

If we are to judge a religion by the political situation in countries where that religion is widespread, Islam doesn’t look very good either.
 
Catholic_Mike said:
Yes, but you can’t judge a religion by its unfaithful members, even if those are in some places the majority.

If we are to judge a religion by the political situation in countries where that religion is widespread, Islam doesn’t look very good either.
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And who’s doing this?
 
Montalban said:
One of the things in Islam is it’s not your fault.

If you rape a woman, it’s her fault for being there.

If you blow up a bus, it’s their fault for not converting.

If you shoot an old nun in the back, it’s her fault for someone else insulting Muhammed.
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Yup.

Islam, the religion of “it is not my fault it is someone else’s fault!”

More proof it is relativism.
 
Montalban said:
This is more true than some people realise.

A Protestant notion is that the rites of Catholic/Orthodox people came about after it became the ‘official’ church under Constantine. It’s a way Protestants can argue in order to debunk traditions by claiming that they were made up 300 years after Christ.
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Yup. But then they must address the fact that protestant traditions were made up 1500, 1800, even 1900 years after Christ 🙂
Moslems have posed to me the same argument; as they too believe that the followers of Christ changed Christ’s message.
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How would they know what is Christ’s message when they were not around to hear it for the first time?

Somehow, between 33 AD and 700AD Christ’s message was changed by the faithful Christians, but for some reason they want you to believe that between 700AD and today Islamonazis didn’t change Mohammad’s message, who somehow was able to travel back in time to hear Christ’s true message and pass it on 🙂

Yup. That’s their logic 🙂
 
Montalban said:
Well they claim that Jesus taught Islam.👍
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Of course they’ll claim that.

In order to believe that, one must believe the following:
Twelve witnesses who were closest to Jesus, and spent three years listening to his teachings on a daily basis, got his message completely wrong.
Thousands of witnesses who were his contemporaries and heard his teachings got it completely wrong.

But somehow some self-proclaimed prophet 600 years later got Jesus’ teachings 100% correct, despite hearing about Jesus only from ordinary Christian followers (and heretical ones at that) 🙂

OK, I may have been born during the day, but it wasn’t yesterday 🙂
 
there are 23,000 or so denominations - how can he be God? I am really troubled by that and my faith in Catholicsm and Chritianity is becoming increasingly shaky.
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Think of a very large mountain. Wherever you stand, you will get a different view. On the north side, you may see tall pine trees, on the south side, luscious plant life. On the north, lots of snow, on the south, lots of sunshine. But it is still the SAME mountain.

So too with God. He is unfathomable. There are probably as many versions of God as there are people He created. Each with their OWN PERSONAL STORY TO TELL!

Now isn’t that amazing.

What else would you expect from the infinite omnipotent glorious God who His Son welcomed us to call ‘Father’.

Deo Gratious 👍
 
rien said:
There are 23,000 or so denominations - how can he be God?
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Well, think about the Old Testament: God allows people to screw up. Besides, it’s not like all Muslims believe the same thing. I think the 23,000 denomination thing is an effective criticism of Protestantism, as some denominations differ from each other on important matters. The Catholic church has a centralized teaching authority that can settle matters when it is necessary. Islam doesn’t - it’s more like Protestantism in that regard, which is why the Muslims of the world can’t even agree on a few very very basic moral questions. Some Muslim leaders condem suicide bombing and some support it. I will not pass judgement on who is correctly intrepreting the Koran, it may very well be that the Koran preaches peace and tolerance and the radical leaders are in error. But the fact that there is even a debate proves that Islam is not unified. Not to mention the Sunni-Shi’a difficulties, disagreements between Sufism and Wahhbism, and many, many branches of judicial and theological thought. I don’t see how Islam can claim unity.
 
Muslims are converting in the West for reasons


  1. *]We allow them to. In Muslim lands it is either illegal to openly preach Christianity or to convert Muslims, or else there is an “unofficial” death sentence for this. Even if a Christian convert isn’t killed, they are ostracised. Christian lands on the other hand allow Muslims to build Mosques preach and convert. At the moment the Muslims take all these “stupid” concessions gladly, demand more, and persecute Christianity in their own countries. It is a one-way ratchet.
    *]Marriage. For the reasons above, Muslims insist more strongly than Christians that a marriage partner and children become Muslim.
    *]Liberal Failure. Relativist liberals have done their best to destroy the belief and practice of Christians. Catholics do not learn catholicism, instead being taught a liberal mish-mash. Popular Catholicism, the Christian year, with fasting at Lent and Advent, celebration of Holy Days and other things that hold a community together have been abandoned. Islam continues strong in its Traditions. This unites the community making it different and feeling more spiritual.
    *]4. We are not going out to convert or to defend our beliefs firmly enough. No-one criticises Muslim beliefs violently on TV or the media, but Christian and Catholic beliefs are always being derided and mocked.
 
rien said:
The latest issue of Chronicles magazine has a great article on this. If they post it at their site I will link to it.

They talk of the recent conversion of the Italian ambassador to Saudia Arabia to Islam - he had been Opus Dei at once I believe, the conversion of Russian Orthodox priests, Slavs (something unheard of before because ehtnicity used to define the Slav’s releigion) and how Russian soldiers in Chechnya are converting and embracing jihad against their mother country. Not to mention the Texas woman brought up a fundamentalist/evangerlical whose conversion story is apparently inspiring other young women.

Muslim missionaries at my door several months ago asked if the prayer of Jesus that :they may be one" was not efficacious - there are 23,000 or so denominations - how can he be God? I am really troubled by that and my faith in Catholicsm and Chritianity is becoming increasingly shaky.

I have an Assemblies of God friend whose church had their youth minister convert to Islam a year ago. My friend says its all a sign of the end -times. The great apostacy. I don’t know if I buy that anymore - Muslims talk too of the end times and how the West and Chritianity/Judaism will embrace secularism and Satan.

I have to be honest - I am scared to admit it but I find the unity of Islam appealing
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Do you consider the Sunnis and Shiites murdering each other, unity?
rien said:
and am starting to read some books on Islam written by Western Muslims and not by evangelicals or Catholics who have an ax to grind. I want the hear the Muslim case from Muslim believers and not Christian apologists.

I started my faith journey as a nomial Protestant, had a born-again experience and became evangelical; then more fundamentalist and then Catholic. I thought my journey was over but something is telling me - God? - that maybe it is not.

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Please include these two free online PDF books in your studies:

Islam Reviewed by M. Ali (Nigerian former Muslim now Nigerian Christian evangelist trying to stay 2 steps ahead of the beheading knife)
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/IslamReviewed.pdf
And “The False Prophet” by Ellis Skolfield (2 part PDF)
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

Do you wonder why some Muslims consider the number 666 to demonstrate the perfection of the Quran?

66619.org/thequran.htm
66619.org/

The pull of Islam is Satan. Visit Walid Shoebats shoebat.com/ site or Muslims for Christ.
 
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