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Jon_S_1
Guest
No doubt both sides were to blame, and I agree that it was a lot more than just Luther. I would say Calvin and Zuigli have contributed to much more to the issues of division in Christianity today.
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[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
Jon
Enjoyed chatting with you. Interestingly, my last initial is “S”. I almost chose your handle when I signed up
Jon
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Tony_the_mad
Guest
It always frustrates me when people ask questions like ‘what is the purpose of good works’. The purpose of ‘good works’ is to help someone because they have a need for it. Any other reason fails Jesus’ command to ‘love one another as I have loved you.’ Jesus did not love us so that he can get a free ticket to heaven or fail to love us because he was already saved. He commanded us to love likewise.
I apologize for my crankiness, but how many of all the replies actually addressed that fundamental point? Instead we get a lot of useless arguments covering a false dichotomy between faith and works. (Catholics for the most part are taught not to think in terms of being saved by either faith or works, but by the grace of God. <— note the PERIOD.)
If you are looking for for any other purpose for good works then your own good works can have NO meaning.
p.s. As a side note that I hope does not derail my main point nor the thread, I believe that this dovetails nicely with the Pope’s comment about atheist being saved. For of all the ways that Jesus talks about to enter the kingdom of Heaven the parable of the last judgment when Jesus says ‘that you do unto the least of my brothers, that you do onto me’ is the most important. For an atheists who helps another person out of love obeys Jesus’ most important command ‘love one another as I have loved you.’ A caring atheist cannot be said to do ‘good works’ for the purpose of being saved; rather he does it for love and it is this love in action (not the good works nor obviously faith) that ‘saves’ him.
I apologize for my crankiness, but how many of all the replies actually addressed that fundamental point? Instead we get a lot of useless arguments covering a false dichotomy between faith and works. (Catholics for the most part are taught not to think in terms of being saved by either faith or works, but by the grace of God. <— note the PERIOD.)
If you are looking for for any other purpose for good works then your own good works can have NO meaning.
p.s. As a side note that I hope does not derail my main point nor the thread, I believe that this dovetails nicely with the Pope’s comment about atheist being saved. For of all the ways that Jesus talks about to enter the kingdom of Heaven the parable of the last judgment when Jesus says ‘that you do unto the least of my brothers, that you do onto me’ is the most important. For an atheists who helps another person out of love obeys Jesus’ most important command ‘love one another as I have loved you.’ A caring atheist cannot be said to do ‘good works’ for the purpose of being saved; rather he does it for love and it is this love in action (not the good works nor obviously faith) that ‘saves’ him.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
POPE FRANCIS DID NOT SAY ATHEIST ARE SAVED!!
He said Christ died for them, Christ redeemed them. Christ redeemed the world. He also said they are capable of doing good works. He never said they are saved. That is universalist heresy.
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Tony_the_mad
Guest
Apparently I missed putting quotation marks around one of uses of the word ‘saved’ :rollseyes; The fact, though, that atheist like all people CAN (but not all WILL just like not all Christians will) enter the kingdom of heaven is well attested both through scripture and though tradition. In particular, atheists may enter by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. (See the description of the last judgement given Matthew 25: 31-40 where no mention of the religion of those being judged is given only that they helped out the least of His brothers). This is particularly true since the atheist like those being judged did not recognize that they were feeding and clothing Jesus.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
So an atheist who devotes his life at the homeless shelter, but rejects the Catholic Church, or rejects God completely may be saved. I get that we can’t judge for certain, but if that’s true, I may just quit RCIA! Who needs the sacraments? Who needs Mass? Who needs to avoid mortal sin?
Just reject God (atheism) but do good works. Got it
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Also, Matthew 25 states that the “righteous” are the sheep. What does righteous mean?
Righteous means living a life that is pleasing to God. That means obeying his commands. These are not people who put faith in themselves over God (atheists).
Also please not that they call Him Lord. Do atheists do this?
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
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guanophore
Guest
Why?
That does not really respond to the OP. The assertion of the Reformers was that good works do not relate to our salvation in any way.
From what you are saying here, any unbeliever can fulfill God’s desire for good works by helping their neighbor.
None so far, but yours sounds semi-Pelagian. If our "ticket to heaven’ is not free, then it sounds like you are saying we must earn our salvation by doing good works.
This is the point of the threat, Tony. So, are you saying that we must do good works to receive the grace of salvation?
Okay, so what is the standard for “out of Love”?
And by what standard can we evaluate if his motives are too self centered, or not?
I know some godless gangsters who will do anything for each other, to provide their ‘homies’ with food, shelter, and clothing. They care for their own better than the families that brought them into this world. Will they be able to gain heaven because they did this love in action?
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fhansen
Guest
I think good works flow from love, which includes and is superior to faith. In fact, the Church teaches that the virtue of faith-and hope as well-can exist without love while love encompasses the other virtues. Love is the goal, the fullness of man’s righteousness/justice. And this would mean that, while faith is the beginning and foundation of our justification, it’s not the end of it; and works do not, of necessity, stem from it.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I agree with you, but I must ask where does Love of God play into this? Or does it?
Is it fine to ignore the greatest commandment and simply love others as Tony the Mad proclaimed??
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fhansen
Guest
But I think it may be just as easy-or easier-to profess love of God while neglecting love of neighbor, and in Christian circles I believe this is often the case. But Jesus says that whatever we do for the least of these we do for Him. Maybe if we love the way God means for us to love-and the way He promises to help us to love- the two greatest commandments cannot be separated.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Oh, I agree very much that Christian circles often hide behind loving God at the expense of their neighbor. This is why I left Evangelicalism. I would also agree, as my signature states, “where charity and love are, God is there”. That is because God IS love. God is goodness, so wherever it manifests God is there. That is very different than saying someone who merely does good is saved and will see God in the beatific vision.
How can someone who turns their back on God by denying his very existence enter into eternity with him. Like Adam and Eve chose themselves and brought separation from God, so to does an Atheist who chooses himself over God, choose for himself to be separated from God.
I am not saying all Catholics are saved, or all Christians, and no atheists are. That is all for God to determine and sort out, but I believe it is highly unlikely that someone who waves their fist at God, calls him a sky fairy, and chooses to deny him will be allowed or forced to spend eternity with God. They can choose themselves and their own destruction.
I believe it leads people astray to say there is no need for the church and sacraments and all you need to do is "be a good person ". The church explicitly denies this although our secular culture proclaims it.
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Daniel_Lysinger
Guest
The purpose of good works is simply to please God.
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PeaceInChrist
Guest
This is a good question. Good works are a positive response to God’s grace, and by them we may merit (meaning we may be generously given, though we are not deserving) grace and an increased response to grace, so that we may grow in faith and become more holy. If one were to examine their journey of faith, it often includes works on the behalf of the believer.
For instance, the Spirit moves within them, and they seek spiritual advice or research the faith or pray more, or any number of actions that they participate in, which are a response to the grace of God in them. What if the potential believer had ignored the calling of the Spirit? Would this rejection of grace have given them faith? It is as James speaks of Abraham, who ‘merited’ (was given the undeserved gift of) a great promise from God, because he allowed God to give it by his response:
“21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”
Notice this work is not the OT Law that Paul speaks of in Romans, but rather a work of faith in God. What if Abraham had ‘believed’ God ‘in his heart’, but had not taken his son to be sacrificed? Would he really have believed God? Would he have become the Patriarch of the Israelites? The same can be asked of Peter: had he killed himself as Judas did, would he have been able to accept Jesus’ forgiveness?
Essentially, to me, anyway, works are our positive cooperation with God’s grace that allow us to grow closer to our Lord, in faith, hope, and charity. They are our free response to God’s free gift of grace from His love, that, if our dispositions are proper and we seek it, will allow Him to make us perfect and love Him, and others, as He desires.
I could be wrong, but this is what I feel the purpose of works are, besides obedience to Jesus Christ (though cooperating with His grace is, in itself, an act of obedience).
For instance, the Spirit moves within them, and they seek spiritual advice or research the faith or pray more, or any number of actions that they participate in, which are a response to the grace of God in them. What if the potential believer had ignored the calling of the Spirit? Would this rejection of grace have given them faith? It is as James speaks of Abraham, who ‘merited’ (was given the undeserved gift of) a great promise from God, because he allowed God to give it by his response:
“21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”
Notice this work is not the OT Law that Paul speaks of in Romans, but rather a work of faith in God. What if Abraham had ‘believed’ God ‘in his heart’, but had not taken his son to be sacrificed? Would he really have believed God? Would he have become the Patriarch of the Israelites? The same can be asked of Peter: had he killed himself as Judas did, would he have been able to accept Jesus’ forgiveness?
Essentially, to me, anyway, works are our positive cooperation with God’s grace that allow us to grow closer to our Lord, in faith, hope, and charity. They are our free response to God’s free gift of grace from His love, that, if our dispositions are proper and we seek it, will allow Him to make us perfect and love Him, and others, as He desires.
I could be wrong, but this is what I feel the purpose of works are, besides obedience to Jesus Christ (though cooperating with His grace is, in itself, an act of obedience).
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Love4All
Guest
While Luther did indeed possess the degree of Doctor, he is not in fact a Doctor in the sense that Saints Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, and Therese of Lisieux are Doctors. He is most certainly not a Doctor of the Church.
He is, however, a priest. Even a defrocked priest is still “a priest forever.”
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Love4All
Guest
I take exception to your phrase, “until his death.” The Sacrament of Matrimony is “until death.” The Sacrament of Holy Orders is “forever.”
Luther is now, and forever, a priest. If he repented of his heresy before his death, he found salvation; if not, he is still a priest, albeit in hell.
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Love4All
Guest
:clapping::yup:
I am so very glad to see this in this thread. I would have posted something similar but you have said everything I would have said. Thank you!
The purpose of good works is to work goodness in the world!
And I would add, Heaven consists entirely in Charity, i.e. sinlessness, i.e. good works. So it is not so much that good works “earn” salvation, nor that good works “result from” salvation. Good works, IS Salvation! Those in Heaven, do nothing at all apart from good works, and for them, it is not any more labor.
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Love4All
Guest
This is another good point. Many seem to think all will be judged on the basis of their beliefs. That is not the case. The judgement is on the basis of works. It isn’t what we think or feel, it is what we do, that matters. This should be obvious but some Christians, I think, lose sight of it.
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Love4All
Guest
You are not invincibly ignorant, therefore if you reject Catholicism you shall be damned.So an atheist who devotes his life at the homeless shelter, but rejects the Catholic Church, or rejects God completely may be saved. I get that we can’t judge for certain, but if that’s true, I may just quit RCIA! Who needs the sacraments? Who needs Mass? Who needs to avoid mortal sin?
Just reject God (atheism) but do good works. Got it
Now ignorance does not save; merit saves, by grace. So there is a world of difference between you, the Catholic Candidate, and the good-hearted atheist who has not yet come to knowledge of the Truth.
And remember also, that although they may be saved in a way known to God, it will not be without passing through Fire. Purgatory is also real, and not for fun.
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Love4All
Guest
No one, standing before the Throne of the Great Judge, can any more mistake Him for “Nothing.”
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