What is the real crisis?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lucybeebee
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Spirithound said:
To give a sociolinguistic example, dropping the final “g” of “-ing” words, centuries ago, no one did it, the acceleration is low. Then the change really picked up, and suddenly more new people per year were using it, acceleration is high. Now, everybody uses it (in informal situations), so the acceleration is low again.

The acceleration of divorce rates for both the Catholic and secular society both have an S shape, just it happened alot sooner for the secular society.
Click to expand...
In my personal opinion, the huge increase in the number of marriage annulments is a far greater threat to the stability of the family than an increase in the number of people dropping the final g of the ing words.
 
ethelzguy said:
Desperate Housewives

:coffeeread:
Click to expand...
So it is a joke. However, the increase in the marriage annulments is no joke for the families and children involved. It is a real tragedy. Just look at the numbers: 9 annulments granted in the USA in 1930, whereas in recent years, since Vatican II, it has run as high as 60,000 per year. Each annulment represents a failed marriage and a family officially recognised as broken by the RCC marriage tribunal.
 
bobzills said:
So it is a joke. However, the increase in the marriage annulments is no joke for the families and children involved. It is a real tragedy. Just look at the numbers: 9 annulments granted in the USA in 1930, whereas in recent years, since Vatican II, it has run as high as 60,000 per year. Each annulment represents a failed marriage and a family officially recognised as broken by the RCC marriage tribunal.
Click to expand...
I think that to claim that 70% of men visit prostitutes weekly IS something of a joke, yes.

The second bolded statement is not consistient with Catholic teaching. An annulment does NOT represent a failed marriage. It represents a marriage that was sacrementally flawed to begin with.
 
bobzills said:
However, the statistics show that the Catholic Church has been hit a thousand times harder than society at large, if you consider the acceleration of divorce rate.
Click to expand...
It’s a spiritual problem for many Catholics. The Catholic Church never endorsed divorce as do the protestant denominations. And what it means is, is that many Catholics do not consider the Church’s views on divorce meaningful to their lives. They are going to do what they want. And most of these divorces are among those who are non-practicing.
 
bobzills said:
In my personal opinion, the huge increase in the number of marriage annulments is a far greater threat to the stability of the family than an increase in the number of people dropping the final g of the ing words.
Click to expand...
Of course it is. Now how about you comment on my analysis of the usefulness of acceleration as a marker?
 
ethelzguy said:
But do we TEACH the faith to our children and grandchildren? Or, do we get into hostile arguments with people after it’s too late?

Do our kids/grandkids know what a cruet is? a novena? a cassock? Do they know the difference in a crucifix and a cross?

Did WE teach them any of this, or did we dump them off at CCD while we went shopping, and then complain when they didn’t learn it, and grew up not really knowing anything about their faith?

And, now when they don’t know their faith, we go off on diatribes against them and call them names?

If there is indeed a crisis in the Church, perhaps the cause is in the mirror?

🤷
Click to expand...
 
I agree that the one in the mirror is the real problem. In all aspects of the Church, Protestants and Catholics. Of course there are the ones who have taught and lived the life in front of their family teaching :signofcross: them with actions as well as words. By that, I mean taught them about God with their words and actions.

By the same token others teach their family the same way but oppositely.

I wonder if we could go back to the early Christian days how would that look. Would any of the problems exist that we have today? I think so.

Cora
 
Spirithound said:
Of course it is. Now how about you comment on my analysis of the usefulness of acceleration as a marker?
Click to expand...
Well, I am not sure about the terminology being used here. What is meant by a marker? Of course it is true that it is shown that in many cases the Verhulst model resulting in an S type curve, or even the Gompertz curve, does fit reality better than the Malthusan model. This is due to the natural inhibitive limitations on growth. Regardless, it still does not negate my premise that there has been an enormous, exponential type explosion in the number of marriage annulments granted by the Church since Vatican II. Because of the increase in the number of marriage annulments, and the apparent ease with which they have been granted, questions have been raised as to whether the Church still holds to the teaching on the indissolubility of mariage in the operational sphere.
 
bobzills said:
Well, I am not sure about the terminology being used here. What is meant by a marker? Of course it is true that it is shown that in many cases the Verhulst model resulting in an S type curve, or even the Gompertz curve, does fit reality better than the Malthusan model. This is due to the natural inhibitive limitations on growth. Regardless, it still does not negate my premise that there has been an enormous, exponential type explosion in the number of marriage annulments granted by the Church since Vatican II. Because of the increase in the number of marriage annulments, and the apparent ease with which they have been granted, questions have been raised as to whether the Church still holds to the teaching on the indissolubility of mariage in the operational sphere.
Click to expand...
It makes no difference, actually. The Church has the authority to do this from Christ Himself - “Whatever you bind on earth is binded in Heaven; whatever you loosen on earth is loosened in Heaven.” Christ gave the Church God’s power on earth, and through Christ, we do God’s work.
 
bobzills said:
<>
Regardless, it still does not negate my premise that there has been an enormous, exponential type explosion in the number of marriage annulments granted by the Church since Vatican II. Because of the increase in the number of marriage annulments, and the apparent ease with which they have been granted, questions have been raised as to whether the Church still holds to the teaching on the indissolubility of mariage in the operational sphere.
Click to expand...
Your premise that there has been an enormous, exponential type explosion in decrees of nullity is valid and borne out by the data. However, I believe it is incomplete. The rate of acceleration will likely soon drop off, but the rate of divorce will stay high, just as the secular rate has.
Now, this question about whether the Church still holds to the indissolubility of marriage is new (unless I have missed it earlier). It seems clear that someone in the annulment process is being less stringent about indissoluble marriages. Whether it is the unhappy couple who never really intended to be married for life, or whether it is the lay people who sit on the marriage tribunals who decide to “give them a break”, I can’t say, and it would likely take some study. Nevertheless, the underlying attitudes there must be modernism, secularism, individualism, and whatever other isms the Deacon and I have been talking about. To restate my position, the Church appears to have been hit harder because she was hit later.

The Church herself must doctrinally acknowledge that marriage is indissoluble, but perhaps her members are not fulfilling their duties.
 
Spirithound said:
Your premise that there has been an enormous, exponential type explosion in decrees of nullity is valid and borne out by the data. However, I believe it is incomplete. The rate of acceleration will likely soon drop off, but the rate of divorce will stay high, just as the secular rate has.
Now, this question about whether the Church still holds to the indissolubility of marriage is new (unless I have missed it earlier). It seems clear that someone in the annulment process is being less stringent about indissoluble marriages. Whether it is the unhappy couple who never really intended to be married for life, or whether it is the lay people who sit on the marriage tribunals who decide to “give them a break”, I can’t say, and it would likely take some study. Nevertheless, the underlying attitudes there must be modernism, secularism, individualism, and whatever other isms the Deacon and I have been talking about. To restate my position, the Church appears to have been hit harder because she was hit later.

The Church herself must doctrinally acknowledge that marriage is indissoluble, but perhaps her members are not fulfilling their duties.
Click to expand...
OK. I think that they have watered down the reasons for granting an annulment, to the extent that it really is not that much different from what other churches call divorce.
 
peary said:
It makes no difference, actually. The Church has the authority to do this from Christ Himself - “Whatever you bind on earth is binded in Heaven; whatever you loosen on earth is loosened in Heaven.” Christ gave the Church God’s power on earth, and through Christ, we do God’s work.
Click to expand...
According to what you have wsritten here, it is possible to interpret this as saying that the Church can dissolve a marriage or loosen the marriage bond? If this were the case, it looks like the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage has been discarded.
 
Spirithound said:
The rate of acceleration will likely soon drop off, but the rate of divorce will stay high, just as the secular rate has.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is indicated by either the Verhulst model or the Gompertz curve, both of which predict the S type action according to the natural limitations on growth.
 
bobzills said:
They have the authority of the position of teaching Catholic theology at the Catholic university in Nebraska and the authority of writing as Catholic theologians for the journal US Catholic. But it is true, that other than that, they don’t have any authority in the Church.
Why are they teaching Catholic theology in a Catholic university and why are their articles being accepted in Catholic journals?
Click to expand...
Hi Bob, I wish I could answer your questions. But I do know they have no business teaching anything that is contrary to Church laws and/or teachings.
 
bobzills said:
According to what you have wsritten here, it is possible to interpret this as saying that the Church can dissolve a marriage or loosen the marriage bond? If this were the case, it looks like the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage has been discarded.
Click to expand...
I am referring to annulments, not the dissolution of a marriage. It’s not the same thing, although on the surface it may appear to be so to an outsider.
 
bobzills said:
Why would a Catholic couple get a divorce if they have a successful marriage?
Click to expand...
What you overlook, is that many Catholic couples ARE in long-standing marriages, that by definition may well be flawed sacrementally.

What is your definition of “successful”? That they “play house” in harmony? There is much more to the sacremental definition of matrimony.
 
peary said:
I am referring to annulments, not the dissolution of a marriage. It’s not the same thing, although on the surface it may appear to be so to an outsider.
Click to expand...
In order to get an annulment, you first have to get a divorce. Why would a couple get divorced if there was no problem in the marriage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top