What is the Reason to Believe that the Bible is Less Than 73 Books (all inerrant and inspired)?

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IgnatianPhilo #19
The basic argument is that the canon was decided before jesus in judaism, hence no more can be added.
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The Canon of Sacred Scripture could only be finalized by the Catholic Church after the N.T. was written.
 
Abu said:
The Canon of Sacred Scripture could only be finalized by the Catholic Church after the N.T. was written.
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While there has been a general consensus of what constitutes sacred scripture, there really hasn’t been any finilisation, at least on a universal level.
 
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IgnatianPhilo:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu

The Canon of Sacred Scripture could only be finalized by the Catholic Church after the N.T. was written.

While there has been a general consensus of what constitutes sacred scripture, there really hasn’t been any finilisation, at least on a universal level.
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From a Roman Catholic perspective…it certainly has. The Universal Church has ruled. The same canon was used by the Church for over 1,000 years until Trent doctrinally confirmed the books Hippo and Carthage listed.

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IgnatianPhilo #21
While there has been a general consensus of what constitutes sacred scripture, there really hasn’t been any finilisation, at least on a universal level.
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Catholic means “universal”, and Christ founded only one Church to which He gave His mandate to teach, sanctify and govern. No other group has that mandate from Christ. The Canon has been finalized by Her.
 
Abu said:
Catholic means “universal”, and Christ founded only one Church to which He gave His mandate to teach, sanctify and govern. No other group has that mandate from Christ. The Canon has been finalized by Her.
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By catholic I assume you mean councils primarily headed by roman catholics, in which case the decrees of such councils even before the schism do not appear to have had any great authority universally binding to the entire church. This whole idea of arguing over a canon is a result of protestant redactionism, while the early church was quite content to let churches have their own individual canon, give or take a few books.
concretecamper said:
From a Roman Catholic perspective…it certainly has. The Universal Church has ruled. The same canon was used by the Church for over 1,000 years until Trent doctrinally confirmed the books Hippo and Carthage listed.

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Perhaps for the roman church and those directly in commnunion with it (After the schism) but that is not the case for the rest of Christendom.
 
IgnatianPhilo #24
By catholic I assume you mean councils primarily headed by roman catholics, in which case the decrees of such councils even before the schism do not appear to have had any great authority universally binding to the entire church. This whole idea of arguing over a canon is a result of protestant redactionism, while the early church was quite content to let churches have their own individual canon, give or take a few books.
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False.
  1. Christ founded only one Church which is known as the Catholic Church first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).
  2. Having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you until the consummation of the world.” (Mt 28:18-20). A teaching authority founded by God must be worthy of God – certain in truth, infallible. Jesus gave Peter the power of binding and loosing, and the Keys of the kingdom of heaven.
The Catholic Church has had 21 Ecumenical Councils which only She can define. As Fr. John A Hardon, S.J., affirms:
“With the first ecumenical council at Nicea in 325, this cooperative activity reached worldwide proportions. The very name “ecumenical council” describes the two elements that have since become associated with collegiality: a council because the bishops meet for united deliberation and decision, and ecumenical because their meeting represents the whole Christian world in union with the see of Peter.”The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday 1975, p 221].

As noted, not only does ecumenical mean universal but the fact that the Orthodox choose to limit themselves to 7 Ecumenical Councils merely defines the limitations of their own choosing which extends to Papal primacy and infallibility. Further regressions from doctrine are expressed in the Orthodox rejecting the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and permitting divorce and remarriage.

It’s interesting also that Arnold Lunn in *Now I See *(Sheed & Ward, 1955) could quote from the Anglican Vicar of Oddington, Rev S Herbert Scott, that St Peter and his successors were recognised as the supreme judges in matters of faith by a long succession of great Eastern saints, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Denys, Athanasius, Chrysostom, and others (p 218).

Scott quotes from the unchanging Graeco-Slav Liturgy at the Council of Nicea addressing the Pope, St Sylvester, who was not himself present: “…thou didst appear as a pillar of fire, snatching the faithful from Egyptian error (sc. Arius) and continually leading them with unerring teachings to divine light.” [Op. cit. Lunn, p 218-9]. Sir Arnold remarks that “This unwilling tribute from the Greek Church of today to the “unerring teaching” of the Roman Pope is most impressive.”

The Sacred Scriptures are available as defined, and free from error only on the authority of Christ’s Church.

The inability to even offer any realistic excuse for rejecting Christ’s Supreme Vicar and His Church after six centuries of fidelity is glaring.

As Dr Warren Carroll has pointed out in The Building of Christendom, 1987, (Vol. 2 of A History of Christendom), p 365, note 80: “There can be no reasonable doubt that St Athanasius as Patriarch of Alexandria and St John Chrysostom as Patriarch of Constantinople fully recognised and accepted Papal primacy (Chapters 1 & 3).”

The reality is that the books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God were decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament – constantly proclaimed throughout.

“The rest of Christendom” has no authority from Christ to change anything.
 
Now I have no doubt pope Damasus declared a canon, but not everyone used it. John Damascene someone the Catholic church considers a Doctor of the church defined the canon of scripture to compose of 67 books, including the apostolic canons. The same Athanasius you want to mention had a different canon as well. I do not see any reason in general to believe the roman churches canon had universal authority, especially in the east when to this day the oriental church and the orthodox church have a different canon of scripture. So what I said was not false. The roman church at the time and even at the schism found no fault in the contents of the bible if I recall, so perhaps you shouldn’t either.
 
The reality is that the books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God were decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament – constantly proclaimed throughout.

It doesn’t matter what anyone else thought or said – the Church decided emphatically through Her Magisterium which was also consistent. Attempts to challenge that authority strike at Christ Himself.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
By catholic I assume you mean councils primarily headed by roman catholics, in which case the decrees of such councils even before the schism do not appear to have had any great authority universally binding to the entire church. This whole idea of arguing over a canon is a result of protestant redactionism, while the early church was quite content to let churches have their own individual canon, give or take a few books.

Perhaps for the roman church and those directly in commnunion with it (After the schism) but that is not the case for the rest of Christendom.
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I agree with you. Where we disagree is what is the Universal Church. IMO…the Universal Church is headed by Rome.
 
Abu said:
The very name “ecumenical council” describes the two elements that have since become associated with collegiality: a council because the bishops meet for united deliberation and decision, and ecumenical because their meeting represents the whole Christian world in union with the see of Peter.”The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday 1975, p 221].
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Or ecumenical because it involved the whole Christian oikumene under the Christian emperor. The Roman Liturgy preserved traces of this ecumenical ideology until the mid-twentieth century when prayers for the emperor were removed from the Mass.
 
Abu said:
The reality is that the books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God were decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament – constantly proclaimed throughout.

It doesn’t matter what anyone else thought or said – the Church decided emphatically through Her Magisterium which was also consistent. Attempts to challenge that authority strike at Christ Himself.
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You can believe that but I think you are reading catholic dogma back on to history without looking at the history. Does the fact that the orthodox and oriental churches have a different canon from the roman church not speak as to something? That Pope Damasus’ canon was not universally accepted solely because he was pope and declared it in a council of rome? Was this council of rome eccumenical or local?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
You can believe that but I think you are reading catholic dogma back on to history without looking at the history. Does the fact that the orthodox and oriental churches have a different canon from the roman church not speak as to something? That Pope Damasus’ canon was not universally accepted solely because he was pope and declared it in a council of rome? Was this council of rome eccumenical or local?
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All it means is disobedience was in style back then too.
 
IgnatianPhilo# 31
Does the fact that the orthodox and oriental churches have a different canon from the roman church not speak as to something? That Pope Damasus’ canon was not universally accepted solely because he was pope and declared it in a council of rome? Was this council of rome eccumenical or local?
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These local area Councils in wide-spread regions, originating with Pope Damasus himself, were all confirmed in their correctness by the canonization at the Council of Trent.

The early Church always accepted the Bishop of Rome as head of the Church. In about 80 A.D., the Church at Corinth deposed its lawful leaders. The fourth bishop of Rome, Pope Clement I, was called to settle the matter even though St. John the Apostle was still alive and much closer to Corinth than was Rome. Tradition shows Pope St Clement exercising his primacy in about 96, on a matter of schism in the Church of Corinth. Of the same generation as Saints Peter and Paul and when St John the Apostle was probably still living in Ephesus, Pope Clement wrote as one commanding to the Church of Corinth in Greece: “If any disobey what He (Christ) says through us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger, but we shall be innocent of this sin.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1) This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

In his epistle to the Romans (around 110), St Ignatius of Antioch refers to the Church which, “presides in the land of the Romans” remarking that he could not command them the way Peter and Paul did – clearly referring to the leadership of Peter in Rome. (Reference in Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius 1988, p 202-3).
 
Abu said:
These local area Councils in wide-spread regions, originating with Pope Damasus himself, were all confirmed in their correctness by the canonization at the Council of Trent.

The early Church always accepted the Bishop of Rome as head of the Church. In about 80 A.D., the Church at Corinth deposed its lawful leaders. The fourth bishop of Rome, Pope Clement I, was called to settle the matter even though St. John the Apostle was still alive and much closer to Corinth than was Rome. Tradition shows Pope St Clement exercising his primacy in about 96, on a matter of schism in the Church of Corinth. Of the same generation as Saints Peter and Paul and when St John the Apostle was probably still living in Ephesus, Pope Clement wrote as one commanding to the Church of Corinth in Greece: “If any disobey what He (Christ) says through us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger, but we shall be innocent of this sin.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1) This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

In his epistle to the Romans (around 110), St Ignatius of Antioch refers to the Church which, “presides in the land of the Romans” remarking that he could not command them the way Peter and Paul did – clearly referring to the leadership of Peter in Rome. (Reference in Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius 1988, p 202-3).
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The Council of Trent is not an ecumenical council, either.

Jon
 
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