What is "The Revelation of the Mystery"?

[JohnVIII]

Most people seem to agree that Rome was not yet established at the time the St Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans. St Paul seemed to be looking forward to that day when he said:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation?

Is there anyone in a religion that holds Gnostic beliefs that would like to comment on what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Is there anyone catholic or non-catholic that thinks it could be possible that St Paul worked with others to help establish a secret gospel in Rome long before the idea of St Peter establishing a church in Rome?

 

[Telstar]

Most people seem to agree that Rome was not yet established at the time the St Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans. St Paul seemed to be looking forward to that day when he said:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation?

Is there anyone in a religion that holds Gnostic beliefs that would like to comment on what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Is there anyone catholic or non-catholic that thinks it could be possible that St Paul worked with others to help establish a secret gospel in Rome long before the idea of St Peter establishing a church in Rome?

I’m no Bible scholar by any means, but Paul could very well have been referring to Peter as the one that was “of power to establish” the Church in Rome. After all, they were both preaching the same Gospel, so there was no difference in what they taught. But, since Peter is the “rock” and the first Pope, it would make sense that Paul would defer all authority to him to establish the Church, there. Perhaps, the ‘mystery’ was that Rome was destined to become the new “Jerusalem” that would be the center of God’s new Church that Jesus founded on Peter? Or, it might just refer to the fact that the Gentiles were to be the new Chosen People of God, since the Jews rejected Jesus. Just a thought.

 

[CopticChristian]

Most people seem to agree that Rome was not yet established at the time the St Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans. St Paul seemed to be looking forward to that day when he said:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation?

Is there anyone in a religion that holds Gnostic beliefs that would like to comment on what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Is there anyone catholic or non-catholic that thinks it could be possible that St Paul worked with others to help establish a secret gospel in Rome long before the idea of St Peter establishing a church in Rome?

The Mystery is the Church…Paul uses Faith in opening and closing the letter to the Romans. He uses the word as “obedient Faith”. That is why he writes.

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2

He points out that it a Mystery that the Jews thought they were the chosen people for salvation, God is God of all, impartial and wants all His people to come to Him through the Church…

6And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

He writes in Colossians the very same thought.

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

In Ephesians he makes the Point that the Church, not the Old Covenant is the way all people will come to Him. The Church is the Body of Christ. All come to the Father trough Christ, the Church.

f ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Gentiles are fellow heirs.

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The Church is how God will make His wisdom made known. This is why the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

5Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

This mystery is the Church. It is not Gnostic. To many today this Mystery remains hidden and denied.

Now getting back to the book of Romans. Paul was teaching the Judaizing Christians that the Old Covenant was dead and compares the Old Covenant and New Covenant to a spouse…see Romans 7.

 

[John7]

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

Here’s the way I think of it…
A commentary of Rom 16.25-26 is Colossians 1.26-27,
Col 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid
from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest
to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the
riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
The mystery is revealed in the NT and answers Ro 16’s
‘mystery…now is made manifest…made known to all nations’,
and can be summed up as, ‘Christ in you’, also seen in Gal 4.6,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,
This mystery, ‘Christ in you’, makes its way into a larger body,
the church, all of whose members are indwelt by the spirit of Christ,
Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father
and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they
two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I
speak concerning Christ and the church.
the marriage is between Christ and all those whom he indwells,
the church.

 

[CopticChristian]

Here’s the way I think of it…
A commentary of Rom 16.25-26 is Colossians 1.26-27,
Col 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid
from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest
to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the
riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
The mystery is revealed in the NT and answers Ro 16’s
‘mystery…now is made manifest…made known to all nations’,
and can be summed up as, ‘Christ in you’, also seen in Gal 4.6,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,
This mystery, ‘Christ in you’, makes its way into a larger body,
the church, all of whose members are indwelt by the spirit of Christ,
Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father
and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they
two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I
speak concerning Christ and the church.
the marriage is between Christ and all those whom he indwells,
the church.

This is true however to be consistent you have to reconcile this with the content of the letter to the Romans. The message is that the Church is the means by which what you say is going to be fulfilled.

Romans 2. God rewards the doers of the law

God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

Romans 3. Paul tells the Jew that doing the law is good, so what was the point in being a Jew for those that are trying to impose the Old Covenant.

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 4. Abraham had obedient Faith prior to Circumcision.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 5. You are not children of Abraham. You are children of Adam. The Jew was putting their faith in their faith.

19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 6. So if you don’t get into the New Covenant by faith in Abraham, and the Old Covenant through Circumcision, what is a person to do? Get Baptized into the Church so that all may be fellow heirs.

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 7. The Jew is no longer bound to the Law, the Old Covenant because the Old Covenant is dead, just like a married spouse.

1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 8. The Holy Spirit.

Romans 9 a summary for the Jew to understand how the Gentile is a fellow heir.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 10 an allusion to Moses who told the people that did not listen and an exortation to just listen…

21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11 God did not abandon Israel. and so on until he sums up for the Jadaizing Christian the mystery of the Church where all can come to Christ.

I cannot take credit for this. If you want to hear all of this in better format then study Scott Hahn 16 tape audio on the letter to the Romans. This is his summary. It is a summary of many commentaries Catholic and Protestant and is consistent with the teaching of the magesterium. This is how I think of it because it makes sense and is consistent with the Catechism.

 

[JohnVIII]

I had hoped to attract someone holding Gnostic views to this thread. I think there is something semi-Gnostic about this issue that is worth investigating.

None-the-less…

…this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
The mystery is revealed in the NT and answers Ro 16’s
‘mystery…now is made manifest…made known to all nations’,
and can be summed up as, ‘Christ in you’, also seen in Gal 4.6,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,
This mystery, ‘Christ in you’, makes its way into a larger body,
the church, all of whose members are indwelt by the spirit of Christ,
Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father
and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they
two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I
speak concerning Christ and the church.
the marriage is between Christ and all those whom he indwells,
the church.

Christ is in you!

The mystery reveals that in Christ we are not subject to the laws required of those who are circumcised. We are a new creature in Christ, and as new wine is not put in old wine skins we need a new religion as the old Judaism cannot hold us.

Gospels were written from various perspectives. Some scholars think that Paul wrote a Gospel that that tells of the Christ from the perspective of the revelation of the mystery and this is what Pual was referring to when he said “according to my gospel”. It is also thought that the Gospel of Luke either is this Gospel or it is a revision of Paul’s Gospel.

There are Gnostic-like elements to all this. If both Peter and Paul came to Rome to establish the Church there, it is clear that Paul came to Rome first. Peter wrote a Gospel too and it corresponds with the Gospel of Mark, as Mark was a disciple of Peter as Luke was of Paul. There was a clash between the Gospel as seen by Jewish converts to Christianity and the Gospel as understood and taught by Paul to Gentile converts. Although this matter was settled at a council in Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15 there were extremists on both sides of this that believed in Christ, but condemned the other side. On the Jewish side were the Ebionites who completely rejected Paul and said you need to be circumcised. On the Gentile side was Marcion, who completely rejected Judaism and even claimed the god of the Jews was not the same God as the Heavenly Father that Jesus prayed to. This is where the Gnostics got the idea that the physical world is evil, because the god of the Jews was evil and he created it, but Jesus was the good God that came to save us from the evil god and his evil world (as St Paul said, “Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father.”, Galatians 1:4). Marcion fully accepted the Epistles of Paul and one Gospel, but nothing that had to do with the Old Testament.

I’m not suggesting that St Paul was extreme as was Marcion, but when St Paul said he wanted Rome to be established in the Revelation of the Mystery in accordance with his Gospel, I’m sure there were plenty of people with a like mind as Marcion (as he had many followers) that took this and ran to the extreme with it and made efforts to establish Gnostic teachings in Rome at a VERY early date in time. I think it would make a very interesting discussion if someone who believed in Gnosticism were to discuss, point by point, what Gnostic-like teachings were taught to the Romans and which, if any of them, had anything to do with what St Paul had actually intended when he brought up this “Revelation of the Mystery” for the Romans. Maybe this is asking too much of a Catholic forum, but I wanted to throw it out there and see.

About this matter of Paul’s Gospel. Scholar’s say that Marcion wrote a Gospel. The mainstream thinking is that he took the Gospel of Luke and edited out everything that he didn’t like and made it his gospel. However, some Scholar’s think that he may have been the first person to even write a Gospel, and the Gospel of Luke was actually a revision of Marcion’s gospel, making corrections in it so that it could be useful and accurate. And then there are certain Gnostic-bias scholar’s that will say that Marcion was a disciple of St Paul and actually he only transcribed Paul’s Gospel.

Whatever it was that happened in Rome with the Revelation of the Mystery and Paul’s Gospel and related issues all happened before it is said that St Peter came to Rome. There is a story of a great battle that happened between Simon Magus (a very popular Gnostic) and St Peter in the Clementine Homilies in which Simon Magus was killed. Regardless of whether or not this story was true it does imply that there were probably Gnostics in Rome at a very early date and that they were defeated by orthodoxy. I, for one, would like to learn as much as I can about Rome before the time of St Peter. Alot of what happened at that time laid a foundation for what was to come. (Btw, I read where some Gnostics say that this battle between St Peter and Simon Magus was really a battle between St Peter and St Paul, Simon Magus’s name being substituted for St Paul)

Any comments or discussions?

 

[CopticChristian]

]
I had hoped to attract someone holding Gnostic views to this thread. I think there is something semi-Gnostic about this issue that is worth investigating.

None-the-less…

Christ is in you!

The mystery reveals that in Christ we are not subject to the laws required of those who are circumcised. We are a new creature in Christ, and as new wine is not put in old wine skins we need a new religion as the old Judaism cannot hold us.

Gospels were written from various perspectives. Some scholars think that Paul wrote a Gospel that that tells of the Christ from the perspective of the revelation of the mystery and this is what Pual was referring to when he said “according to my gospel”. It is also thought that the Gospel of Luke either is this Gospel or it is a revision of Paul’s Gospel.

There are Gnostic-like elements to all this. **If both Peter and Paul came to Rome to establish the Church there, it is clear that Paul came to Rome first. **Peter wrote a Gospel too and it corresponds with the Gospel of Mark, as Mark was a disciple of Peter as Luke was of Paul. There was a clash between the Gospel as seen by Jewish converts to Christianity and the Gospel as understood and taught by Paul to Gentile converts. Although this matter was settled at a council in Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15 there were extremists on both sides of this that believed in Christ, but condemned the other side. On the Jewish side were the Ebionites who completely rejected Paul and said you need to be circumcised. On the Gentile side was Marcion, who completely rejected Judaism and even claimed the god of the Jews was not the same God as the Heavenly Father that Jesus prayed to. This is where the Gnostics got the idea that the physical world is evil, because the god of the Jews was evil and he created it, but Jesus was the good God that came to save us from the evil god and his evil world (as St Paul said, “Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father.”, Galatians 1:4). Marcion fully accepted the Epistles of Paul and one Gospel, but nothing that had to do with the Old Testament.

I’m not suggesting that St Paul was extreme as was Marcion, but when St Paul said he wanted Rome to be established in the Revelation of the Mystery in accordance with his Gospel, I’m sure there were plenty of people with a like mind as Marcion (as he had many followers) that took this and ran to the extreme with it and made efforts to establish Gnostic teachings in Rome at a VERY early date in time. I think it would make a very interesting discussion if someone who believed in Gnosticism were to discuss, point by point, what Gnostic-like teachings were taught to the Romans and which, if any of them, had anything to do with what St Paul had actually intended when he brought up this “Revelation of the Mystery” for the Romans. Maybe this is asking too much of a Catholic forum, but I wanted to throw it out there and see.

About this matter of Paul’s Gospel. Scholar’s say that Marcion wrote a Gospel. The mainstream thinking is that he took the Gospel of Luke and edited out everything that he didn’t like and made it his gospel. However, some Scholar’s think that he may have been the first person to even write a Gospel, and the Gospel of Luke was actually a revision of Marcion’s gospel, making corrections in it so that it could be useful and accurate. And then there are certain Gnostic-bias scholar’s that will say that Marcion was a disciple of St Paul and actually he only transcribed Paul’s Gospel.

Whatever it was that happened in Rome with the Revelation of the Mystery and Paul’s Gospel and related issues all happened before it is said that St Peter came to Rome. There is a story of a great battle that happened between Simon Magus (a very popular Gnostic) and St Peter in the Clementine Homilies in which Simon Magus was killed. Regardless of whether or not this story was true it does imply that there were probably Gnostics in Rome at a very early date and that they were defeated by orthodoxy. I, for one, would like to learn as much as I can about Rome before the time of St Peter. Alot of what happened at that time laid a foundation for what was to come. (Btw, I read where some Gnostics say that this battle between St Peter and Simon Magus was really a battle between St Peter and St Paul, Simon Magus’s name being substituted for St Paul)

Any comments or discussions?

It appears that you have not read and have not studied the book of Romans. You have approached this with a preconcieved notion and do not choose to look at the entire book in context. Paul wrote to a Church he had never been to. This is part of the understanding of the book of Romans.

19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

Your precocieved notions worry me. You have a notion that is not part an parcel of the proper understanding of this letter. I worry you will bring confusion to a proper understanding. You would do well to read this letter, study this letter, understand this letter and then reconsider your preconcieved notion. You can do harm by acting like a Protestant believing you have found some novel idea not present.

Your point of view is disparaging to Scripture. To suggest that the letter to Romans is Gnostic? Is this building the Faith or satisfying your desire to spread falsehoods?

 

[JohnVIII]

It appears that you have not read and have not studied the book of Romans. You have approached this with a preconcieved notion and do not choose to look at the entire book in context. Paul wrote to a Church he had never been to. This is part of the understanding of the book of Romans.

Your precocieved notions worry me. You have a notion that is not part an parcel of the proper understanding of this letter. I worry you will bring confusion to a proper understanding. You would do well to read this letter, study this letter, understand this letter and then reconsider your preconcieved notion. You can do harm by acting like a Protestant believing you have found some novel idea not present.

Your point of view is disparaging to Scripture. To suggest that the letter to Romans is Gnostic? Is this building the Faith or satisfying your desire to spread falsehoods?

Wow! I’m surprised you got this out of what I said! Did I say Romans was Gnostic? Did I say Paul went to Rome before writing Romans? But perhaps you are right that this would not be faith building, since it involves discussing historical facts that could confuse those who dogmatically believe excepted history.

I’m spreading “falsehoods” too?! Ok, let’s just forget about this thread all together! Be careful not to walk too far because you might fall off the edge of the the Earth!

God bless & goodbye!

–Thread Closed–

 

[CopticChristian]

Wow! I’m surprised you got this out of what I said! Did I say Romans was Gnostic? Did I say Paul went to Rome before writing Romans? But perhaps you are right that this would not be faith building, since it involves discussing historical facts that could confuse those who dogmatically believe excepted history.

I’m spreading “falsehoods” too?! Ok, let’s just forget about this thread all together! Be careful not to walk too far because you might fall off the edge of the the Earth!

God bless & goodbye!

–Thread Closed–

In your opening post you said…

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation

Rome had already been established when Paul wrote, by another man’s work he says.

You then said…

what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Paul was writing to Christians…he says the Gospel not his gospel

o all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is something Protestants neglect to understand when they cite Romans 10:9 as a recipe for getting “saved”…Why would Paul write to Christians that are saved to get saved?

Paul goes on to mention the Gospel

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in **the gospel **of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

and then says…they have mutual faith and he wants to impart a spiritual gift.

11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

He then sets the stage for the Judaizing Christian, because in Rome they were trying to impose the Old Covenant as part of being a Christian.

15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach **the gospel **to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of** the gospel **of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

but go back and look at Romans 1:5

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The entire letter is about Obedient Faith…and he compares and contrasts that with Faith in the Old Covenant and many and various ways because the Judaizing Christian had not gotten the message correctly and that is what he wrote to tell them…God is impartial…He is God of all, Jew, Gentile, Greek, Barbarian and even if Circumcision put you in the Old Covenant, going back into the Old Covenant won’t get you what you need and that is Christ…to get that you have to accept that God wants all his children to come home through the Church…by the Holy Spirit in Baptism…the mystery hidden for all ages…

 

[KathleenGee]

The Roman and Orthodox churches were all founded by the apostles…St. Paul was the apostle to the Christians, and in spite of some disputes with st. Peter, the Apostles through the Church recognized his own authority, and his mission to reach out to the Gentiles…

Rome thus had the two great apostles, Peter and Paul called to Rome by the Holy Spirit.

The revelation is Jesus, the nourishment of Life…our faith should be a living faith.

 

[JohnVIII]

In your opening post you said…

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation

You falsely accused me of saying that I said the whole Epistle of Romans was Gnostic! But I only said that the one phrase “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began” sounds very Gnostic. And I did not say that it was Gnostic, I said it sounded Gnostic. So, if you feel you must attack me, at least get it right. And furtheremore I don’t think this forum is for the purpose of attacking others, but to carry out disscustion about the Faith.

You also said that the Holy Scripture did not say “my” Gospel, meaning St Paul’s Gospel, but it says “the” Gospel. Don’t tell me about it, let all the scholar’s know about their error because it would have saved them alot of time writing volumes on what Paul may have referred to when he said “my” Gospel!

View attachment 12187

“stErixai kata to euaggelion mou”
“to-establish in-accord-with the well-message of-me”
“establish according to my Gospel”

Romans 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.”

Romans 16:25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.”

Romans 16:25
New International Version (NIV)
“Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past.”

Paul uses the phrase “my Gospel” also in Romans 2:16 & 2 Timothy 2:8

Now, I have absolutely no desire to make a fight out of this! I think this could make a very edifying discussion, but if others see it as faith-destroying and all a bunch of lies as you clearly do, then by all means let’s not go any further with this.

 

[CopticChristian]

You falsely accused me of saying that I said the whole Epistle of Romans was Gnostic! But I only said that the one phrase “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began” sounds very Gnostic. And I did not say that it was Gnostic, I said it sounded Gnostic. So, if you feel you must attack me, at least get it right. And furtheremore I don’t think this forum is for the purpose of attacking others, but to carry out disscustion about the Faith.

You also said that the Holy Scripture did not say “my” Gospel, meaning St Paul’s Gospel, but it says “the” Gospel. Don’t tell me about it, let all the scholar’s know about their error because it would have saved them alot of time writing volumes on what Paul may have referred to when he said “my” Gospel!

View attachment 12187

“stErixai kata to euaggelion mou”
“to-establish in-accord-with the well-message of-me”
“establish according to my Gospel”

Romans 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.”

Romans 16:25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.”

Romans 16:25
New International Version (NIV)
“Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past.”

Paul uses the phrase “my Gospel” also in Romans 2:16 & 2 Timothy 2:8

Now, I have absolutely no desire to make a fight out of this! I think this could make a very edifying discussion, but if others see it as faith-destroying and all a bunch of lies as you clearly do, then by all means let’s not go any further with this.

What can be concluded is that there are translations. What can be asked is if Paul is discussing his gospel or the gospel or they are the same and confusion arises because as Paul says…there is no other gospel.

Perhaps the question could be asked does Paul at all times discuss the gospel and call it his gospel as I would call the gospel my gospel coincident and not different from the gospel…or is Paul teaching other than the gospel at sometimes and not at other times?

 

[Telstar]

You falsely accused me of saying that I said the whole Epistle of Romans was Gnostic! But I only said that the one phrase “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began” sounds very Gnostic. And I did not say that it was Gnostic, I said it sounded Gnostic. So, if you feel you must attack me, at least get it right. And furtheremore I don’t think this forum is for the purpose of attacking others, but to carry out disscustion about the Faith.

No offense, but it did sound like you were implying that Paul’s whole Epistle sounded Gnostic, not just that passage. It seemed that you were basing your assumption on those particular points about the “the revelation of the mystery”, and his using the terms “my gospel”. That was the impression that I got from it, as well. It wasn’t just Coptic that took it that way, so there’s no need for you to get defensive or angry about it and start throwing insults around, because you weren’t clear about your own opinion about it in your opening post.

You also said that the Holy Scripture did not say “my” Gospel, meaning St Paul’s Gospel, but it says “the” Gospel. Don’t tell me about it, let all the scholar’s know about their error because it would have saved them alot of time writing volumes on what Paul may have referred to when he said “my” Gospel!

View attachment 12187

“stErixai kata to euaggelion mou”
“to-establish in-accord-with the well-message of-me”
“establish according to my Gospel”

Romans 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.”

Romans 16:25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.”

Romans 16:25
New International Version (NIV)
“Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past.”

Paul uses the phrase “my Gospel” also in Romans 2:16 & 2 Timothy 2:8

Now, I have absolutely no desire to make a fight out of this! I think this could make a very edifying discussion, but if others see it as faith-destroying and all a bunch of lies as you clearly do, then by all means let’s not go any further with this.

The Douay-Rheims also says “my gospel”, but by reading the first chapter it’s very clear that Paul is referring to the Gospel of Jesus Christ that all of the Apostles were preaching. At that point, there was only one because the Bible had not been assembled into the four different versions of the Gospel. They were all still preaching the same basic principles that they had been taught, either directly by Jesus, or by one of the other Apostles. The Gospel is the Gospel, no matter which Apostle was teaching it.

 

[CopticChristian]

You falsely accused me of saying that I said the whole Epistle of Romans was Gnostic! But I only said that the one phrase “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began” sounds very Gnostic. And I did not say that it was Gnostic, I said it sounded Gnostic. So, if you feel you must attack me, at least get it right. And furtheremore I don’t think this forum is for the purpose of attacking others, but to carry out disscustion about the Faith.

You also said that the Holy Scripture did not say “my” Gospel, meaning St Paul’s Gospel, but it says “the” Gospel. Don’t tell me about it, let all the scholar’s know about their error because it would have saved them alot of time writing volumes on what Paul may have referred to when he said “my” Gospel!

View attachment 12187

“stErixai kata to euaggelion mou”
“to-establish in-accord-with the well-message of-me”
“establish according to my Gospel”

Romans 16:25
King James Version (KJV)
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.”

Romans 16:25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.”

Romans 16:25
New International Version (NIV)
“Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past.”

Paul uses the phrase “my Gospel” also in Romans 2:16 & 2 Timothy 2:8

Now, I have absolutely no desire to make a fight out of this! I think this could make a very edifying discussion, but if others see it as faith-destroying and all a bunch of lies as you clearly do, then by all means let’s not go any further with this.

I take the letter to the Romans to be one of the most important letters that was written by Paul as it concerns truths, understanding, deliverance of the Gospel. It was the letter that launched the Reformation, when Luther added saved by Faith “alone”. It is the letter Protestants ignorantly use, and I say that because passages are taken out of context as they are taught without understanding the letter.

My personal experience is that Protestants yank unsuspecting, unkowing Catholics out of the Church by telling them that the Catholic Church has lied, is a cult and point out…
“for all have sinned”…they teach you Mary is without sin…gasp…the Church lied…

the spiral of twisting Scripture continues. It is the letter Protestants use to get people “saved”

They believe that you must hear the gospel…preaching…you then respond by saying a sinners prayer…“confess with your lips and believe with your hear and you will be saved”…gasp…the Church did not teach me this?

I will point out later today that the most important evangelical tool and the most powerful apologetic tool is to know and understand this letter. When you suggested as you did in the opening post I took issue with an improper understanding of this letter. Read what I wrote in that light.

 

[CopticChristian]

I had hoped to attract someone holding Gnostic views to this thread. I think there is something semi-Gnostic about this issue that is worth investigating.

None-the-less…

Christ is in you!

The mystery reveals that in Christ we are not subject to the laws required of those who are circumcised. We are a new creature in Christ, and as new wine is not put in old wine skins we need a new religion as the old Judaism cannot hold us.

I’m not suggesting that St Paul was extreme as was Marcion, but when St Paul said he wanted Rome to be established in the Revelation of the Mystery in accordance with his Gospel, I’m sure there were plenty of people with a like mind as Marcion (as he had many followers) that took this and ran to the extreme with it and made efforts to establish Gnostic teachings in Rome at a VERY early date in time. I think it would make a very interesting discussion if someone who believed in Gnosticism were to discuss, point by point, what Gnostic-like teachings were taught to the Romans and which, if any of them, had anything to do with what St Paul had actually intended when he brought up this “Revelation of the Mystery” for the Romans. Maybe this is asking too much of a Catholic forum, but I wanted to throw it out there and see.

About this matter of Paul’s Gospel. Scholar’s say that Marcion wrote a Gospel. The mainstream thinking is that he took the Gospel of Luke and edited out everything that he didn’t like and made it his gospel. However, some Scholar’s think that he may have been the first person to even write a Gospel, and the Gospel of Luke was actually a revision of Marcion’s gospel, making corrections in it so that it could be useful and accurate. And then there are certain Gnostic-bias scholar’s that will say that Marcion was a disciple of St Paul and actually he only transcribed Paul’s Gospel.

Whatever it was that happened in Rome with the Revelation of the Mystery and Paul’s Gospel and related issues all happened before it is said that St Peter came to Rome. There is a story of a great battle that happened between Simon Magus (a very popular Gnostic) and St Peter in the Clementine Homilies in which Simon Magus was killed. Regardless of whether or not this story was true it does imply that there were probably Gnostics in Rome at a very early date and that they were defeated by orthodoxy. I, for one, would like to learn as much as I can about Rome before the time of St Peter. Alot of what happened at that time laid a foundation for what was to come. (Btw, I read where some Gnostics say that this battle between St Peter and Simon Magus was really a battle between St Peter and St Paul, Simon Magus’s name being substituted for St Paul)

Any comments or discussions?

You asked for comments or discussions.

Paul wrote the letter. No one disputes this. There is a theme for the letter. The letter was written for Christians.

The Theme…

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for **obedience to the faith **among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

He starts and ends the letter with this theme. This is paramount in understanding and explaining to any Protestant what this letter is truly about.

He is writing to Christians…So when Protestants yank Romans 10:9 out of context…confess etc…you have to point out that notion makes no sense because Paul is writing to Christians…it is a letter about Salvation but not as they understand it and this is key. Why would Paul put a formula for conversion in a letter to those that are already Christians? He did not and that is what Protestants fail to see.

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
**7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace **to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul then concludes the letter with the following…

25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. <<Written to the **Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.>>/**QUOTE]

Paul says he is writing to Christians, he is writing to teach “obedience of Faith”, not Faith alone, he never says that and he concludes with that message to the Roman Church.

Paul isn’t writing to tell Protestants how to inculcate others by taking passages out of context. If you can see and understand this then we can show our separated Protestant brethren that it is not us that have been lied to and it is not us that do not understand Scripture for we believe

That we are saved by Grace alone, by Faith alone, working in love…“Obedient Faith”…Faith in action…do we love others enough to know the truth and preach the truth with the vehemence and love that they come to us to tell us what they don’t know?

You may want to look at the thread concerning Mary has sinned Romans 3 and also the thread 2Timothy 3:16 and see all the places where you see these thrown around. I will deal with these later.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

JohnVIII;8569465]"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation?

Is there anyone in a religion that holds Gnostic beliefs that would like to comment on what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Gnostic? Paul reveals the greatest mystery on earth second to Peter who got it first hand from God. That God removed the enmity between Jew and Gentile making them one body in Christ Jesus. Paul reveals this mystery throughout his epistles ( for example see Galatians 3:14, 29, Rom. 8:17…, Ephesians 3 and 4)

Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, 12 were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world.*

14 ** For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh,15 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person* in place of the two, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.**

19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 21Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord;s 22 in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Paul is the “apostle to the Gentiles” (his gospel = GOOD NEWS= first century interpretation of gospel) writing to Rome and all other Gentile cities proclaiming Christ crucified unites both Jews and Gentiles into one body in Christ Jesus. This has been the Great mystery hidden from all ages including the angels who pondered how is God going to bring about unity between Jews and Gentiles? Pauls Answer to the greatest mystery; JESUS Christ and Him Crucified.

Is there anyone catholic or non-catholic that thinks it could be possible that St Paul worked with others to help establish a secret gospel in Rome long before the idea of St Peter establishing a church in Rome?

I don’t think Paul would of went to his martyrdom with joy proclaiming Christ crucified aloud always under the threat of death and stoning, if Paul had a secret gospel. Rome at the time was the capital of the Gentiles to which Paul " appealed to Ceasar" to his gospel proclaimed.

 

[CopticChristian]

Gnostic?

Paul reveals the greatest mystery on earth second to Peter who got it first hand from God. That God removed the enmity between Jew and Gentile making them one body in Christ Jesus.

 

[CopticChristian]

Most people seem to agree that Rome was not yet established at the time the St Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans. St Paul seemed to be looking forward to that day when he said:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation?

Is there anyone in a religion that holds Gnostic beliefs that would like to comment on what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Is there anyone catholic or non-catholic that thinks it could be possible that St Paul worked with others to help establish a secret gospel in Rome long before the idea of St Peter establishing a church in Rome?

Now, if you can gather all the information that I put before and understand that there is the gospel and what was being taught in Rome, namely imposing the Old Covenant on Christians by circumcision, and understanding that there were Jewish/Christians, Gentile/Christiians and Judaizing/Jewish/Christians…and examine this…

**17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. **18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your **obedience **is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

21Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

22I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

23Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother. 24The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

The gospel was a doctrine known and unfortunately the Judaizing Christians were not being obedieint to the Faith. The Judaizing Christians were divisive. The “my gospel” is the gospel that they learned and he points that out in contrast to the Judaizing Christians Gospel. To impose the Old Covenant is recognition that they did not understand the mystery of the Church and salvation. You should be able to grasp that the the mystery is the Church, part of the gospel and not the Old Covenant…and the mystery includes obedience to the faith, to the gospel…and not to deviate for there is no other gospel.

 

[CopticChristian]

Most people seem to agree that Rome was not yet established at the time the St Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans. St Paul seemed to be looking forward to that day when he said:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery,

which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:25-26)

This sounds very Gnostic to me. Rome was to be established with a secret revelation?

Is there anyone in a religion that holds Gnostic beliefs that would like to comment on what the revelation of the mystery is and how St Paul wanted Rome to be originally established according to his gospel?

Is there anyone catholic or non-catholic that thinks it could be possible that St Paul worked with others to help establish a secret gospel in Rome long before the idea of St Peter establishing a church in Rome?

Now recall that there were only two tribes at the time of Christ that were not dispersed, Benjamin and Judah. The other tribes were dispersed…the remnant. Notice how Paul talks about these and the Gentiles…

5Even so then at this present time also there is** a remnant according to the election of grace.** 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall **salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. **

So Paul clarifies for the Judaizing Christian putting their faith in the Old Covenant that the Church, the mystery, is the way all will be reconciled. With this in mind read from Chapter 11 until the end paying attention to the word Gentile and how it is used to see how Paul is saying do not be decieved by the divisive Judaizing Christians and the Gentiles too are fellow heirs through the mystery hidden for all ages.

Understand that Paul is restating the gospel that they heard, the spiritual gift is reconcilit with what was learned and getting them back on track…

11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end **ye may be established; **12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Paul is setting up the Judaizing Christian to hear that Jew, Gentile, Barbarian, Greek are all children of God, not just the Jew and that they should be of “mutual faith” as due to the Judaizing Christian there was division…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

CopticChristian;8596694Know that Paul was writing to Christians. There were Gentile Christians, Jewish Christians and Judaizing Christians…

No one can disagree that Paul was writing to Christians. He says so. He also wrote the letter to a Church…a Chrstian Church.

I challenge you to continue to read the letter and find out if he says “first” when does he say second or next.

If these are Christians why is he distinguishing between Jews and Greeks? Can you imagine how insulting to the Jew this would be?

Before a conclusion can be drawn, it should be revealed that the first century Church consisted of 4 diversified groups that lead Paul to write his epistles addressing these 4 groups of Christians in different cities.

1. Jewish Christians and Gentile converts who insisted on full observation of the Mosaic Law, meaning that only one who was or had become Jewish could become Christian. The converts would have been converts to Judaism as well as to Christianity.
2. Jewish Christians and Gentiles converts who did not insist on circumcision but required Gentiles who were converts only to Christianity to keep some Jewish observances…
3. Jewish Christians and Gentile converts who did not insist on circumcision or Jewish observances, but would be expected to respect the Jewish observances of Jewish members of the Christian community to avoid scandal.
4. Jewish Christians and Gentile converts who saw no particular signifigance to circumcision or Jewish observances, but would keep the moral code included in the OT revelation… (Raymond E. Brown; American biblical scholar).

Understanding this diverse state of the Early Christian communities it is important not to confuse the community situations, when Paul addresses the Roman converts with Jerusalem converts or Ephesian convert communities. Paul addresses each one distinctively upon their circumstances and convert understandings.

With this in mind, no matter the diversified convert community Paul’s teaching remains the same throughout his teachings “Christ Crucified” and all who believe are made one in Christ.

According to Paul it follows then, that all diversed converts, be it Jewish or Gentile are made one

Galatians 3:27* For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.* 28** There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.** Jesus Christ crucified removed the enmity between Jew and Gentile, Jew and Greek making them one in Christ Jesus is the greatest mystery known to man and the heavens.