What is the role of art?

[jonfawkes]

I agree with you 100%. When I look at the beautiful religious paintings of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, I can feel the presence of God in the works. They are absolutely beautiful, tell a story, and show the fruits of Christ.

When I look at an Andy Warhol or a Jackson Pollock or many other modern paintings, I see disorder, commercialism, and ugliness.

That’s exactly what Worhol and Pollock were trying to convey. You got the message! Now this might not be something you find pleasurable but that is a matter of taste, not whether or not it functions as a piece of art. Just because you don’t like the message doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That’s exactly what Worhol and Pollock were trying to convey. You got the message! Now this might not be something you find pleasurable but that is a matter of taste, not whether or not it functions as a piece of art. Just because you don’t like the message doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

They don’t show beauty or truth, so why call it art? I sure wouldn’t want any of their artwork in my home, (and they aren’t even the worst of modern artists!). I like to see art that uplifts me. I imagine most people would rather look at a Raphael painting than a Jackson Pollack, but whatever, each to his own.

 

[edwest2]

I am sometimes asked by artists, commercial artists, to give them guidance. Abstract expressionism is not encouraged. Images that are easy to understand are encouraged. The goal of a communications medium is to clearly present a message to a viewer. Abstract art, expressionist art and art that distorts do not convey clear messages.

Peace,
Ed

 

[jonfawkes]

They don’t show beauty or truth, so why call it art? I sure wouldn’t want any of their artwork in my home, (and they aren’t even the worst of modern artists!). I like to see art that uplifts me. I imagine most people would rather look at a Raphael painting than a Jackson Pollack, but whatever, each to his own.

They show a truth. Again you are describing preference not value as art. Some like uplifting art some like to be challenged it’s all art.

 

[JDaniel]

That’s exactly what Worhol and Pollock were trying to convey. You got the message! Now this might not be something you find pleasurable but that is a matter of taste, not whether or not it functions as a piece of art. Just because you don’t like the message doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

Jon:

And, pornographic art? What is its precise message? That we are sexual beings? We already knew that. But, yet, there are those that continue making it. Over, and over, and over, almost ad infinitum. Shouldn’t once be enough?

God bless,
jd

 

[donsnow]

Oh, dear. :nope: I can see why you feel the way you do, Ed. And Don, too! Hi! That sort of thing would tend to make one dismiss all abstract expressionism and non-representational art as flaky.

I got my B.A. in Creative Writing and during that took an unofficial minor, so to speak, in art - basic drawing, graphic design, etc. Then a little over a decade after that I went back to the same university, thinking to do a double major in psychology and studio arts and then go after a Master’s in Art Therapy.

Well, I eventually modified that plan, dropped the psych end of it first. The studio art department of this university, while secular, emphasized a lot of representationalism and I was frustrated because I wanted to go into abstract expression at the time.

Finances - or lack thereof - ended my time there, and then a few years afterward I decided I will just be self-taught - read books, practice, etc. And I am enjoying that. How far I will ultimately take it is up to God and me and it’s too early to tell.

I’m not saying anyone has to like the kind of art I do! But I do think there is an element of intention that comes into play.

For example, two of my favorite artists are Wassily Kandinsky and Jackson Pollock. Kandinsky had a lot of occult stuff behind his art. But I don’t have to buy into all that to enjoy looking at the interplay of color and form. Or to do something similar but with the Christian worldview I described in my earlier post.

Jackson Pollock was a troubled, cantankerous alcoholic whose life ended tragically. And his action paintings may just look like spattered paint, but I “get” his artistic vision and I like his stuff; again, I don’t have to agree with everything about how he lived his life, etc.

I could ramble on and on, but I think I’ve made my main points! Ed, I’m glad you posted what you did; I had just unsubscribed from this thread because of all the back-and-forth about other stuff that IMO doesn’t seem to answer the question that the OP had posed and is only peripherally related to art. I was thinking about starting a new thread of my own, or just retreating to the relative peace and calm of my “Artistic Catholics” social group.:tanning:

So…I’ll stick around for awhile, see what happens next…:bounce:

Or I may go, because in the time it took to compose this, I got logged out, and now that I am back I see the other debates are still raging. Sigh.

Hi, 3DOCTORS,

Always glad to see and read your posts.

First, about being logged out…where you log in, between password and submit places, is a little box that says, “Remember me”. I think that’s exactly where it is; if not, it’s on the same line and in the same area as where we log in. Ma’am, click on that little box and it will produce a little check mark. It will also prevent your being logged out .

Ok, yes, ma’am, ya got me. I’m not much into what I call modern art. But, there have been times I’ve stopped and spent some time looking at one. I never get, except for Picasso, what the artist was trying to express, it’s all meaningless to me.
But, I want to thank you for sharing about your works and speaking out for modern art and artists. I respect you for that. We disagree but I respect you and your taking a stand.

I will spare you and the other readers and posters my random thoughts that followed ed’s story. I can only respond, Sorry, modern art is not for me.

Merry Christmas.
God loves you and yours,
Don

 

[CHRISTINE77]

They show a truth. Again you are describing preference not value as art. Some like uplifting art some like to be challenged it’s all art.

Yes, but is it inspired? What is your definition of art anyway?

 

[jonfawkes]

Yes, but is it inspired? What is your definition of art anyway?

Yep, it may not be divinely inspired but it is inspired. Think of a love song.
I’ll defer to Pablo Picasso - “Art is a lie that makes us realize truth”

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yep, it may not be divinely inspired but it is inspired. Think of a love song.
I’ll defer to Pablo Picasso - “Art is a lie that makes us realize truth”

Here is an interesting quiz on what makes art great. Of course it’s personal.
philosophersnet.com/games/britney1.htm

 

[3DOCTORS]

They don’t show beauty or truth, so why call it art? I sure wouldn’t want any of their artwork in my home, (and they aren’t even the worst of modern artists!). I like to see art that uplifts me. I imagine most people would rather look at a Raphael painting than a Jackson Pollack, but whatever, each to his own.

I like both. And my art is not simply imitating Kandinsky or Pollock or anyone, but learning technique from them and others, and synthesizing it into something that I have fun and delight in creating (small ‘c’).

My pieces evoke happiness and joy in the reactions of those to whom I’ve shown them. So to me, there is beauty and truth there in the sharing and the connection, in the colors and lines and forms and the excitement of exercising the visual abilities that God gave us. It’s a different kind of beauty than the beauty of representational art, but I believe it is beauty.

Others may disagree. Like you say, to each his own. I’ve said enough. Unsubscribing.:sad_bye:

 

[3DOCTORS]

Hi, 3DOCTORS,

Always glad to see and read your posts.

First, about being logged out…where you log in, between password and submit places, is a little box that says, “Remember me”. I think that’s exactly where it is; if not, it’s on the same line and in the same area as where we log in. Ma’am, click on that little box and it will produce a little check mark. It will also prevent your being logged out .

Ok, yes, ma’am, ya got me. I’m not much into what I call modern art. But, there have been times I’ve stopped and spent some time looking at one. I never get, except for Picasso, what the artist was trying to express, it’s all meaningless to me.
But, I want to thank you for sharing about your works and speaking out for modern art and artists. I respect you for that. We disagree but I respect you and your taking a stand.

I will spare you and the other readers and posters my random thoughts that followed ed’s story. I can only respond, Sorry, modern art is not for me.

Merry Christmas.
God loves you and yours,
Don

Couldn’t resist hopping back on briefly. Don, man, I somehow missed this post you made yesterday. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for a response that goes beyond “if it doesn’t make a recognizable picture it’s no good.” (Occasion of sin for 3DOCs to comment further than that - I could get into some major snark.)

I totally respect your right to different tastes in art and your thoughtful response. I also thank you for the techie tip!

I’m out to, among other things, “Christianize” some of the art techniques and styles that the Modern and Postmodern artists gave - I believe the technique is one thing, how an artist employs it and for what purpose is another.

Maybe I’ve been presenting my arguments backwards. Say a person looks at a sunset. Colors, forms, shapes. OK, he/she knows it “represents” the natural phenomenon in God’s world known as “a sunset.” But supposing he/she looks at it as beautiful colors and forms and lines and shapes, and appreciates all the interplay and the spectacle before your eyes - just immerses him/herself in it. To me, that’s like a prayer.

So what I do, is, I put all kinds of colors and shapes and lines and movement in my non-representational paintings, and hope that they inspire similar awe - for the God Who made all the colors, gave me the brain and the hand and the eyes to enjoy playing with them and sharing the results with others and forging connections with people through the sharing.

OK. Enough apologia for my artistic vision. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who don’t understand, no explanation is possible.

 

[donsnow]

Couldn’t resist hopping back on briefly. Don, man, I somehow missed this post you made yesterday. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for a response that goes beyond “if it doesn’t make a recognizable picture it’s no good.” (Occasion of sin for 3DOCs to comment further than that - I could get into some major snark.)

I totally respect your right to different tastes in art and your thoughtful response. I also thank you for the techie tip!

I’m out to, among other things, “Christianize” some of the art techniques and styles that the Modern and Postmodern artists gave - I believe the technique is one thing, how an artist employs it and for what purpose is another.

Maybe I’ve been presenting my arguments backwards. Say a person looks at a sunset. Colors, forms, shapes. OK, he/she knows it “represents” the natural phenomenon in God’s world known as “a sunset.” But supposing he/she looks at it as beautiful colors and forms and lines and shapes, and appreciates all the interplay and the spectacle before your eyes - just immerses him/herself in it. To me, that’s like a prayer.

So what I do, is, I put all kinds of colors and shapes and lines and movement in my non-representational paintings, and hope that they inspire similar awe - for the God Who made all the colors, gave me the brain and the hand and the eyes to enjoy playing with them and sharing the results with others and forging connections with people through the sharing.

OK. Enough apologia for my artistic vision. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who don’t understand, no explanation is possible.

Oh, 3DOCTORS,

Thanks for sharing. My art appreciation is in music and literature. I understand what you are saying. Thanks, for saying it.

I also think that when an artist’s efforts include truth and godly love, that that artist will achieve beauty and inspiration in their art.

God’s love to all,
Don

 

[3DOCTORS]

Oh, 3DOCTORS,

Thanks for sharing. My art appreciation is in music and literature. I understand what you are saying. Thanks, for saying it.

**I also think that when an artist’s efforts include truth and godly love, that that artist will achieve beauty and inspiration in their art.
**
God’s love to all,
Don

I certainly endeavor to do exactly that, Don! (Oh, how I long for an “artist” smiley! - how 'bout this - pretend it’s me choosing a color of paint :juggle: “Eeny meeny miney moe, Bless this cluttered studio!” )

 

[Sarabande]

I didn’t have a chance to read through all of the posts as I have a little one taking a nap and need to be quick before she wakes up again.

I will only focus on the musical art form as that is my “forte” since I am a musician, but I think this could be applied to other art forms.

For me, as a musician, I believe the music that I make through my instrument can be used as a form of communication between God and those of us on earth. The composition can be divinely inspired and it is the musician’s responsibility to communicate that inspiration to the listener, whether or not it is a sacred, religious or secular piece of music. In my case, my instrument is my voice, which in it of itself is a very “organic” instrument. It is a part of my body and in order for my voice to come out completely and freely, I have to be mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually open and healthy. For instance, when I am stressed, anxious, depressed, closed off, etc. my voice will actually be tight, sound nervous and not up to par. The way to avoid that for me is to pray before I sing, and as I am singing to offer any music that I sing as a prayer to God. I allow Him to take over my voice. I just become the instrument, not allowing the ego and the self to get in the way. When that happens, I relax and then sometimes, reach a level of spiritual transcendence. I don’t know what else to call it, but it is the most incredible experience and those other musicians who sing or play other instruments I’ve spoken to about it, musicians who also have a strong spiritual life, have experienced the same. We all thought we were strange before we found each other. haha!

When performing with other musicians or listening to other musician who are of the same mind, “magic” can be made. As a listener for some performances, you can sometimes see when the music is really inspiring them and when it is not. There is a lacking of presence and love in the way the notes are played or sung. It’s “monotone”, uninspired, even if it may be one of the most beautiful pieces ever written. I’ve experienced that when I’ve heard one piece and thought nothing spiritually inspiring by it and then heard it again, either by the same performer(s) or different ones and am completely overwhelmed. That said, it could have only been me the night that I was uninspired or it could have been the musician.

I personally feel that I have a responsibility as an artist to use my art form in the best and highest way possible. Keep humble and allow whatever the music I make to affect the listener hopefully in a good way. Ideally, to bring a warmth and love from God to them, whether or not they believe it is from God. Humility is key to achieve this, as it is so easy to get a big ego when people are constantly telling you how wonderful you are and how much you touch them with your voice and bring them to tears. I always tell myself that it isn’t me. It’s God. I am only the instrument and a servant to the music and to God. My musical mentors always stressed this to me and I am so blessed to have had them. As easily as I was blessed with this instrument, it can be easily taken away from me by Him. I worked to perfect it for Him, but I wouldn’t have had it without Him.

I probably sound like a total nut and hope I’m making sense which is why I don’t talk about this music outside of my circle of musicians, but that is how I view the art of music on a spiritual level, at least. I think there are also other levels in which people use music - for pure human fun like drinking songs, much of rock/pop music nursery rhyme songs, etc. There is music that is used to evoke a certain kind of emotion like what is used in symphonic program music, tone poems and the like. (Sacred music, in a way, is also used to evoke feelings of spirituality, purity, transcedence, etc.)

ANyway, that’s all for now. Baby is up.

 

[Cecilianus]

In the Byzantine Church, ikons are regarded as sacramentals - they actually make present the heavenly reality they reveal.

For Roman Catholics, are statues viewed in the same way? In other words, are works of art (statues, paintings, etc.) used just as psychological aids to devotion or pedagogical tools, or are they used sacramentally?

If the former case is true, what about early Italian artwork, such as that of Blessed Fra Angelico, who is regarded as an iconographer in the East? The Roman Catholic church near my home has a Fra Angelico on one of the side altars.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Sarabande, your post was very moving. And music is one of “the arts”!

I was swimming at the health club today and enjoying the opportunity as I love to swim yet haven’t had the opportunity for a long time till someone gave me this gift membership.

And as I was floating and enjoying it and thanking God for this and other blessings, I felt peaceful and relaxed, and the answer to this art question came to me - partly as a result of mulling over Sarabande’s post in a relaxed frame of mind.

It amazed me, too, that I was so dense before - the metaphor I was looking for was right there in my own mind, but had yet to surface: I also write poetry. Duh! :doh2: And poetry can be about the sound and if you will, the music of the language as much as it is about the meaning. My paintings are like poems in color and line and so on.

The metaphor is thus: Some people like their poetry formal and structured with rhyme, very traditional. And that’s good. And others also like poetry that is looser in form but still musical. So it is with visual art. Or any of the arts. There are more “formal forms” and there are works of art, music, poetry, etc. that are very straightforward, direct, “left brained.” Then there are others that are more intuitive and evocative, “right brained” you might say.

I’m definitely a right-brainer. And my spirituality when reflected in my art is generally so as well.

 

[donsnow]

I certainly endeavor to do exactly that, Don! (Oh, how I long for an “artist” smiley! - how 'bout this - pretend it’s me choosing a color of paint :juggle: “Eeny meeny miney moe, Bless this cluttered studio!” )

I could tell that from your posts, ma’am,

I’d need a smiley of me chewing on a pen or pencil, while pondering the right word or music, for my message.

And, I wish you, 3DOCTORS, and all the others on this thread, and all of your loved ones, a blessed and Merry Christmas from now to the Epiphany.

God loves all of you,
Don

 

[donsnow]

I didn’t have a chance to read through all of the posts as I have a little one taking a nap and need to be quick before she wakes up again.

I will only focus on the musical art form as that is my “forte” since I am a musician, but I think this could be applied to other art forms.

For me, as a musician, I believe the music that I make through my instrument can be used as a form of communication between God and those of us on earth. The composition can be divinely inspired and it is the musician’s responsibility to communicate that inspiration to the listener, whether or not it is a sacred, religious or secular piece of music. In my case, my instrument is my voice, which in it of itself is a very “organic” instrument. It is a part of my body and in order for my voice to come out completely and freely, I have to be mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually open and healthy. For instance, when I am stressed, anxious, depressed, closed off, etc. my voice will actually be tight, sound nervous and not up to par. The way to avoid that for me is to pray before I sing, and as I am singing to offer any music that I sing as a prayer to God. I allow Him to take over my voice. I just become the instrument, not allowing the ego and the self to get in the way. When that happens, I relax and then sometimes, reach a level of spiritual transcendence. I don’t know what else to call it, but it is the most incredible experience and those other musicians who sing or play other instruments I’ve spoken to about it, musicians who also have a strong spiritual life, have experienced the same. We all thought we were strange before we found each other. haha!

When performing with other musicians or listening to other musician who are of the same mind, “magic” can be made. As a listener for some performances, you can sometimes see when the music is really inspiring them and when it is not. There is a lacking of presence and love in the way the notes are played or sung. It’s “monotone”, uninspired, even if it may be one of the most beautiful pieces ever written. I’ve experienced that when I’ve heard one piece and thought nothing spiritually inspiring by it and then heard it again, either by the same performer(s) or different ones and am completely overwhelmed. That said, it could have only been me the night that I was uninspired or it could have been the musician.

I personally feel that I have a responsibility as an artist to use my art form in the best and highest way possible. Keep humble and allow whatever the music I make to affect the listener hopefully in a good way. Ideally, to bring a warmth and love from God to them, whether or not they believe it is from God. Humility is key to achieve this, as it is so easy to get a big ego when people are constantly telling you how wonderful you are and how much you touch them with your voice and bring them to tears. I always tell myself that it isn’t me. It’s God. I am only the instrument and a servant to the music and to God. My musical mentors always stressed this to me and I am so blessed to have had them. As easily as I was blessed with this instrument, it can be easily taken away from me by Him. I worked to perfect it for Him, but I wouldn’t have had it without Him.

I probably sound like a total nut and hope I’m making sense which is why I don’t talk about this music outside of my circle of musicians, but that is how I view the art of music on a spiritual level, at least. I think there are also other levels in which people use music - for pure human fun like drinking songs, much of rock/pop music nursery rhyme songs, etc. There is music that is used to evoke a certain kind of emotion like what is used in symphonic program music, tone poems and the like. (Sacred music, in a way, is also used to evoke feelings of spirituality, purity, transcedence, etc.)

ANyway, that’s all for now. Baby is up.

Hi, Sarabande,

Thanks for posting.
Your words evoked an enthusiastic response from me as I read that third paragraph, as I see things the same way you do.

God loves you and yours,
Don

 

[SouthpawLink]

Why, It’s consistent with this

catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

The images are tools, not holy.

The Second Council of Nicaea (A.D. 787) says otherwise.

catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma4.php

catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson17.html (see question 221).

 

[jonfawkes]

1. Is it right to show respect to the statues and pictures of Christ and of the saints?

It is right to show respect to the statues and pictures of Christ and of the saints, just as it is right to show respect to the images of those whom we honor or love on earth.

Right - a picture of my loved one isn’t my loved one. If someone lets ants crawl on my Mom’s picture it doesn’t offend me or my Mom. It isn’t her, it’s just a picture. I can print as many as I like. I don’t love and care for the picture, I love and care for my mother.