What is the role of Protestanism in God's Plan

[PaulDupre]

1. I’m actually looking for insight from other Catholics about what they think God’s plan might be for Protestantism in 2007. If God does bring good out of bad, then what good (for the Catholic Church) is coming out of Protestantism today?

Thanks!

In the Catholic bible study group that I attend and sometimes lead, more Catholics are joining all the time. Most say that they want to be able to defend their Catholic faith against attacks from Protestant co-workers and neighbors.

If Protestants are motivating Catholics to learn the bible in depth and become better catechized, then I am grateful to them.

Paul

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you jmcrae;

I consider it “telling” that Mother Mary (through Juan Diego) converted 9 million Aztecs to the Catholic faith (roughly the same as the number of Europeans who ultimately became Protestant) in 1531-41, roughly the same time period as the early “Reformation” - obviously, someone up there thought that “replacements” were needed for “Judas” (see Acts 1;12-26).

I believe that if the Catholic church had hung all its teachings on the two greatest commandments there would be no Orthodox or Protestant Churches.
I receive a news bulletin from Ekklesia and as a point of interest on this day in 1517 –

Needing money to rebuild St. Peter’s basilica, Pope Leo X announces special sale of indulgences.

Just a timely reminder about one of the reasons the Catholic Church needed reforming.

In the spirit of praying for a greater friendship within Christianity.

Eric

 

[jmcrae]

Greetings and peace be with you jmcrae;

I believe that if the Catholic church had hung all its teachings on the two greatest commandments there would be no Orthodox or Protestant Churches.
I receive a news bulletin from Ekklesia and as a point of interest on this day in 1517 –

Needing money to rebuild St. Peter’s basilica, Pope Leo X announces special sale of indulgences.

It isn’t actually possible to “sell” an Indulgence. Rather, the Pope offered an Indulgence to all who provided money for the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica.

I know I’m supposed to be all shocked and horrified by that, anyway, but I actually have no idea what was so bad about it. Aren’t we required by Church law to support the Church in her material needs? Doesn’t it make perfect sense, then, to offer an Indulgence for providing for a particularly pressing need, especially if it is to the benefit of the world-wide Church, and brings more souls to Heaven?

Why should Pope Leo X have been forced to take out an interest-bearing loan from the Jews to build St. Peter’s Basilica, instead? Isn’t anybody shocked by that?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you jmcrae;

It isn’t actually possible to “sell” an Indulgence. Rather, the Pope offered an Indulgence to all who provided money for the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica.

I may be wrong but I have heard another interpretation of selling indulgencies. Martin Luther accused the church of being corrupt by selling indulgencies to people for sins they might commit in the future. There was also the churches links with the inquisitions. If the church was innocent of these accusations I believe Martin Luther would have just been another priest and we would have never heard about him.

The key points of Luther’s theses were simple, but devastating: a criticism of the Pope’s purpose in raising the money, "he is richer than Croesus, he would do better to sell

St Peters and give the money to the poor people…", and a straightforward concern for his flock, “indulgences are most pernicious because they induce complacency and thereby imperil salvation”.

I have to agree with Luther saying that the Vatican is an extravagance and the money could have been a greater benefit to the poor.

The individual gains the indulgence by participating in certain activities, most often the recitation of prayers. By decree of

Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms. In addition, the only punishment remitted by an indulgence is existing punishment, that is, for sins already committed. Indulgences do not remit punishment for future sins, as those sins have yet to be committed. Thus, indulgences are not a “license to sin” or a “get-out-of-Hell-free” card; they are a means for the sinner to “pay” the “wages” of sin.

In the spirit of searching for justice for all.

Eric

 

[ricmat]

I have to agree with Luther saying that the Vatican is an extravagance and the money could have been a greater benefit to the poor.

You could say the same about Solomon’s temple. Or making the Ark of the Covenant out of all that gold. Or when the woman anointed Jesus feet with expensive balm, and Judas protested that it could have been sold and given to the poor (sorry, don’t have the chapter/verse handy.)

LATE EDIT:

After I posted the above, I started my Evening Prayer (Liturgy of the Hours). The first psalm was psalm 132 where David speaks of “finding a house for the Lord” i.e. building a temple. How about that for a coincidence…

 

[jmcrae]

Greetings and peace be with you jmcrae;

I may be wrong but I have heard another interpretation of selling indulgencies. Martin Luther accused the church of being corrupt by selling indulgencies to people for sins they might commit in the future.

This is completely insane. That’s not how Indulgences work, *at all. * First of all, they only remit the temporal consequences due to sin; they don’t actually erase the sins themselves. (We have to go to Confession, for that.) Secondly, they can only be used for sins already committed, and third, they are a “get out of Purgatory free” deal, not a “get out of Hell free” deal.

There was also the churches links with the inquisitions.

Yes, the idea of seeing whether someone is actually guilty of what they are accused of, by holding a “questioning of witnesses” (aka an “Inquisition”) to see what the truth really is, instead of just burning them at the stake on the say-so of their accusers - oooh, bad Catholic Church, checking the facts before passing sentence. :tsktsk:

By the way, you may not be aware of it, but the Inquisition is actually the ancestor of our modern “innocent until proven guilty” system of justice.

If the church was innocent of these accusations I believe Martin Luther would have just been another priest and we would have never heard about him.

Of course we would have. Martin Luther controlled a printing press - he could say anything he wanted, whether true or not. People believe all kinds of strange things when they see it in print.

I have to agree with Luther saying that the Vatican is an extravagance and the money could have been a greater benefit to the poor.

I disagree. First of all, who do you think was employed to build the Vatican? Rich people?

Second, if we had given all the money to the poor, they’d still be poor, and we’d be broke, too, since there is not enough wealth in the world to keep everyone fed and clothed without someone generating wealth through work.

By getting involved in a building project, the Pope generated wealth through the work of the building project, and saved many poor people by giving them jobs, financial security, and self esteem.

 

[water]

I disagree. First of all, who do you think was employed to build the Vatican? Rich people?

Second, if we had given all the money to the poor, they’d still be poor, and we’d be broke, too, since there is not enough wealth in the world to keep everyone fed and clothed without someone generating wealth through work.

It is so ridiculous for those who are trying to bash Vatican by saying about their finance without knowing how much it costs to operate.

They have no problem to see how much their pastors make a year … while knowing that Catholic priests hardly make a living.

It reminds me of Judas for saying the money can help the poor, but his heart was not all about helping the poor.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Yes, it makes sense that there’s a bigger picture. I was hoping that a Catholic smarter than me could provide a piece of that picture. Even though you are not Catholic, I appreciate your responding

Thanks ricmat, in reading other posts it doesnt seem like your getting too far. I wouldnt say you need a smarter person, just other (name removed by moderator)ut, you are doing fine.

Still think theres a ton of stuff interconnected that Gods about with. He is truly bigger than all of this, and I trust that one day He will sort us all out, keep up the hope.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Kitty Chan;

He is truly bigger than all of this, and I trust that one day He will sort us all out, keep up the hope.

Thank you for reminding us about the bigger picture and I think it was wrong of me to follow on about the reasons for the reformation.

I have family and friends who are Protestant, atheists, and Muslim, I would like to hope that they may all find salvation even if they continue with their current worldview.

The same God created each and every one of us and is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together. God loves each and every one of us despite our differences, and maybe that is all we can strive to do for each other.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[mikew262]

Greetings and peace be with you Kitty Chan;

Thank you for reminding us about the bigger picture and I think it was wrong of me to follow on about the reasons for the reformation.

I have family and friends who are Protestant, atheists, and Muslim, I would like to hope that they may all find salvation even if they continue with their current worldview.

The same God created each and every one of us and is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together. God loves each and every one of us despite our differences, and maybe that is all we can strive to do for each other.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

Well put!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Greetings and peace be with you Kitty Chan;

Thank you for reminding us about the bigger picture and I think it was wrong of me to follow on about the reasons for the reformation.

I have family and friends who are Protestant, atheists, and Muslim, I would like to hope that they may all find salvation even if they continue with their current worldview.

The same God created each and every one of us and is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together. God loves each and every one of us despite our differences, and maybe that is all we can strive to do for each other.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

no worries

I believe that Gods sneaky and will get this stuff through our thick little heads.

Peace be with you.

 

[lak611]

In the Catholic bible study group that I attend and sometimes lead, more Catholics are joining all the time. Most say that they want to be able to defend their Catholic faith against attacks from Protestant co-workers and neighbors.

If Protestants are motivating Catholics to learn the bible in depth and become better catechized, then I am grateful to them.

Paul

I never read the Bible until a Baptist gave me one. Now I am in a Catholic Bible study which I have belonged to for about 6 years. I thank God that the Baptists got me to study God’s Word.

 

[lak611]

The purpose for anything that God does, is that He may be glorifed.

You have that right!

 

[Allweather]

I never read the Bible until a Baptist gave me one. Now I am in a Catholic Bible study which I have belonged to for about 6 years. I thank God that the Baptists got me to study God’s Word.

Whatever it takes!

But honestly, I cannot fathom why you’d never read the Bible. It certainly wasn’t because the Catholic Church had kept you from it, or discouraged you from it.

At the same time, I don’t think it is a requirement that anyone read/study the Bible outside of Mass. If you go to Mass often and pay attention, you get an awful lot of Bible. Lots of people are unable for various reasons to read. That doesn’t mean they can’t be perfectly good Catholic Christians.

 

[lak611]

Whatever it takes!

But honestly, I cannot fathom why you’d never read the Bible. It certainly wasn’t because the Catholic Church had kept you from it, or discouraged you from it.

It was never discouraged, but never encouraged either when I was growing up. My childhood parish was indifferent towards personal Bible reading. My current parish very much encourages it, especially since they have two Bible study groups.

At the same time, I don’t think it is a requirement that anyone read/study the Bible outside of Mass. If you go to Mass often and pay attention, you get an awful lot of Bible. Lots of people are unable for various reasons to read. That doesn’t mean they can’t be perfectly good Catholic Christians.

That is correct.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

i guess i see it like this:
perhaps the reformation gave the church a shot it needed to straighten up. and at the same time perhaps it put a bigger burden on the church. perhaps a chastisement from God for it’s sins. now aside from all the people that do not know Christ and need conversion we have a whole lot of wayward Christians drifting farther and farther away from the true church of Christ. people that subcribe to teachings unheard of in the first 1500 years of Christianity. alot of people that need to be brought home to the church. a big task. Catholics don’t need to go door to door. they need to walk the faith. to be a shining light. to be Jesus to the world. talk is cheap if you don’t walk the walk. it takes actions of love. protestant people, please do not be offended by what i say. this is from my Catholic perspective, which the OP asked for.

protestants are needed by the catholic church to this date.
previous replies have stated that the protestant reformation
provided the spark for the counter reformation of the CC
If protestants were not around today , it would not take the CC
very long to drift back to error.

second is this forum.
in your debates with protestants you try to prove your views and debunk prot. views, this forces you to study the bible
which is a huge blessing to the catholics and the protestants in this forum.

third the CC misunderstands what Christ said in

Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me;
Joh 17:26 and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.

andCo 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; it is not therefore not of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; it is not therefore not of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members each one of them in the body, even as it pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now they are many members, but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee: or again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary:
1Co 12:23 and those parts of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness;
1Co 12:24 whereas our comely parts have no need: but God tempered the body together, giving more abundant honor to that part which lacked;
1Co 12:25 that there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffereth, all the members suffer with it; or one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

These passages mean that we Christians should be one in purpose to proclaim the gospel of Christ , not and I repeat not
be part of the same organization like the CC

The catholics can be one part of the body of christ and protestants will be other parts.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you DRIVING BEAR;

protestants are needed by the catholic church to this date.

I believe there is a lot of truth in this.

In the spirit of praying for a more loving relationship within Christianity.

Eric

 

[ricmat]

protestants are needed by the catholic church to this date.
previous replies have stated that the protestant reformation
provided the spark for the counter reformation of the CC
If protestants were not around today , it would not take the CC
very long to drift back to error.

Thank you Protestants for dragging Catholicism back to the truth of Protestantism

Now, let’s see - which truth of Protestantism would that be? Of the 33,000 denominations, which one is the Truth that Catholics got dragged back to? Obviously the One True Church (per Bart Simpson) - the Western Branch of American Reformed Presbylutheranism.

As I said in the original post, I think the reformation did have a positive effect on Catholicism in terms of practical abuses (not theology), hence a “purpose” for Protestantism. Conversly, the purpose of Catholicism is to help Protestants find the fullness of the faith, most of which is lacking in their own faiths.

And in terms of the bible - yes, we do need to keep them handy when debating protestants. And many Catholics don’t ever look at one (as I’m sure is common among some protestants as well.) But as was posted in detail on another thread, the entire Mass is based on scripture, and if one attends Mass regularly, you basically hear the bible from start to finish over a 3 year period or so. Not just a few verses extracted out of context which “proves” your point.

Oh, and of course Jesus didn’t want ONE church, he wanted 33,000 with differing opinions

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you ricmat;

I sense we often use our own truth like a verbal sword to try and beat our opponent.

All the laws and the prophets which carry the truth of the Catholic Church must hang and depend on the two greatest commandments. The second commandment does not say try and change your neighbour into something they are not at present. Loving our neighbour is more about striving to change ourselves rather than change others.

It is striving to love others as they are despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Sixtus]

oving our neighbour is more about striving to change ourselves rather than change others.

With that I agree 100%

I have found that if you have to encounter someone who is not nice, absusive, offensive, insulting and obnoxious, if you really pray for them, wish them well, behave as though they are your closest friend whom you dearly love, they become so.

That is absolutely amazing. In my view the product of the Holy Spirit and a willingness to see with the spirit what we do not see with the brain