What is the scriptural argument for the ordination of women?

[Edmundus1581]

This is about the argument for ordination of women in Protestant denominations. I just want to know what the scriptural argument is!

All of the Evangelical Protestants (mostly Anglicans) I have met are firmly in favour of the ordination of women. They are also firmly sola scriptura. Thus I expect that there must be a widely accepted scriptural argument for the ordination of women. I expect that there is also a widely accepted rebuttal of the obvious scriptural arguments against ordination.

Do any of our Protestant (or ex-Protestant) members know what the arguments are? Do you have any links?

Some other information I would be interested in is a historical summary of how the debate in the Anglican/Episcopal communion was won by the pro-ordination side. When I left the Anglican Church for Catholicism back in 1981 there was still an all male priesthood, and I didn’t follow the theological debate after that.

Please - can we avoid turning this into a debate about women’s ordination!

 

[kaneata]

I was watching a clip about Roman Catholic Women Priests (they believe they really are legitimate priests) on YouTube and one woman said that there were women deacons, priests, and bishops in scripture. I was waiting for a reference, but of course she didn’t give one. I only know about the deaconess which helped out the women who were being baptized.

 

[PaulDupre]

They usually cite Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

But the context doesn’t apply to the issue of female clergy. In this passage Paul is discussing unity in the body of Christ and the promise of being a joint-heir with Christ. His point is that salvation in the kingdom of God has nothing to do with earthly status, but is based only on faith in Jesus. It is obviously an answer to the Judaizers who insisted that only the seed of Abraham (Israelites) were heirs of the promise. The passage does not deal with authority to officiate in the sacraments.

The passage in context:

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

• Galatians 3:27-29

Like they say, context is everything.

Paul

 

[grandfather]

They usually cite Galatians 3:28

But the context doesn’t apply to the issue of female clergy. In this passage Paul is discussing unity in the body of Christ and the promise of being a joint-heir with Christ. His point is that salvation in the kingdom of God has nothing to do with earthly status, but is based only on faith in Jesus. It is obviously an answer to the Judaizers who insisted that only the seed of Abraham (Israelites) were heirs of the promise. The passage does not deal with authority to officiate in the sacraments.

The passage in context:

Like they say, context is everything.

Paul

If they want to quote Saint Paul, he says women should keep silent in church.

 

[graceandglory]

This is about the argument for ordination of women in Protestant denominations. I just want to know what the scriptural argument is!

All of the Evangelical Protestants (mostly Anglicans) I have met are firmly in favour of the ordination of women. They are also firmly sola scriptura. Thus I expect that there must be a widely accepted scriptural argument for the ordination of women. I expect that there is also a widely accepted rebuttal of the obvious scriptural arguments against ordination.

Do any of our Protestant (or ex-Protestant) members know what the arguments are? Do you have any links?

Some other information I would be interested in is a historical summary of how the debate in the Anglican/Episcopal communion was won by the pro-ordination side. When I left the Anglican Church for Catholicism back in 1981 there was still an all male priesthood, and I didn’t follow the theological debate after that.

Please - can we avoid turning this into a debate about women’s ordination!

That’s interesting; when I was an evangelical, sola scriptura protestant, my protestant brothers and sisters in the Lord, as well as the denominations were scripturally against any ordination of women.
Women were also never allowed to distribute the bread or juice.

 

[PaulDupre]

If they want to quote Saint Paul, he says women should keep silent in church.

Excellent point, grandfather!

 

[Edmundus1581]

They usually cite Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Thankyou Paul. There’s one argument, to answer my question.

That’s interesting; when I was an evangelical, sola scriptura protestant, my protestant brothers and sisters in the Lord, as well as the denominations were scripturally against any ordination of women.
Women were also never allowed to distribute the bread or juice.

Thankyou graceandglory. How long ago was this? My impression is that over the last 30 years most major Protestant denominations have accepted women’s ordination, yet are still “sola-scriptura”. Well, that seems to be the case in Australia anyway. Perhaps parts of the US have held out.

 

[hn160]

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod does not ordain woman or homosexuals because of the words of St. Paul and because of the order of creation as Adam was created to be the head of Eve. Just like in the RCC, in the LC-MS there are some that would like to change this and follow the same slippery slope of the other mainline Churches.

 

[grandfather]

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod does not ordain woman or homosexuals because of the words of St. Paul and because of the order of creation as Adam was created to be the head of Eve. Just like in the RCC, in the LC-MS there are some that would like to change this and follow the same slippery slope of the other mainline Churches.

This is off topic, but I am curious. I know certain Protestant groups do not go along with ther majority on artificial contraception. Is this one of them?

 

[hn160]

This is off topic, but I am curious. I know certain Protestant groups do not go along with ther majority on artificial contraception. Is this one of them?

There is no stipulation that say you can’t use contraception, but it is frown upon.

 

[hn160]

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has a good book about it"s case against women ordination.

cyberbrethren.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/photo.jpg

 

[Holly3278]

I really don’t know what their justification for it is. However, I do know that many Pentecostals that I have met, who are most often Fundamentalists, also approve of women’s ordination which I found to be surprising. Most Fundamentalists, I thought, do not approve of women’s ordination.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Has anyone ever seen this? In fact I believe there are several, she is not the first here.

CHESHIRE, CT — Dorothy Shugrue fulfilled a lifelong dream when she was ordained as Roman Catholic priest, even if the official church hierarchy won’t acknowledge her achievement.

Shugrue’s call to the priesthood, however, is not from the church — it’s from God and the people of God, she says, and so she will consider herself just as much a priest as any man.

She is a former nun and works at the Morris Foundation Waterbury as a counselor to pregnant women and new mothers with substance abuse and mental health issues. But Shugrue has always wanted to be a priest who can perform the sacraments.

Of course you can google and watch the video and read further into details from different sights etc. This is from the New Haven Register late 2011.

Peace

 

[ltwin]

I really don’t know what their justification for it is. However, I do know that many Pentecostals that I have met, who are most often Fundamentalists, also approve of women’s ordination which I found to be surprising. Most Fundamentalists, I thought, do not approve of women’s ordination.

Pentecostals are not fundamentalists. We are evangelicals. There is a difference. The fundamentalists rejected us . Also, fundamentalists cannot accept a continuationist position, and that is unacceptable to our Pentecostal theology.

But to answer your question, Pentecostals are big on the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Probably the most influential verse is the prophecy of Joel 2:28, 29 fulfilled in Acts 2:16-18. Pentecostals believe the fact that the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh and that women are, as well as men, to prophesy indicates women’s inclusion in ministries in the new covenant.

We look back to the Old Testament and see women exercising strong leadership roles: Miriam the prophet alongside her brothers Moses and Aaron, Deborah the prophet and judge of Israel, and the lesser known prophet Huldah (2 Kings and 2 Chronicles). In the New Testament we note that there were also women involved in ministry like Tabitha (Dorcas), the prophetic daughters of Philip, the women Euodia and Syntyche who worked with Paul, Priscilla another worker with Paul, and other women are mentioned by Paul as laborers in ministry. Then there is Phoebe, diakonos at the church at Cenchrea.
Further information and defense of the Pentecostal position from a biblical viewpoint can be found in an Assemblies of God position paper, The Role of Women in Ministry As Described in Holy Scripture.

The easiest explanation is that Pentecostals believe that if God has given a woman the required gifts and graces to preach and teach effectively, who are we to say she shouldn’t?

Pentecostals aren’t feminists by any means, and men continue to make up the majority of the leadership of Pentecostal churches. However, we don’t believe women are in a subordinate position in the church.

 

[KathleenGee]

Actually, the context of St. Paul was referring to how previously the Gentile Christians had worshipped the Lord and participated at the banquet table in the homes of the rich. Unfortunately, the poor were delegated back out into courtyards…a scandal.

Through St Paul’s admonition…this perception of class and sexism was reflected upon and then the environment of faith was modified to not reflect economic classes…

In Christ’s liberality…we are all equal before the Lord and He has no favorites.

The Scripture points out at the Sacred Table of the Lord on Holy Thursday, He had only His apostles, as many of His prior followers had abandoned Him when He spoke of eating of His flesh and blood. He had only His apostles He had directly chosen, to be with Him at the sacred table.

But on Pentecost, there were many others in the room, including His blessed Mother…who were also gifted with charisms of fire of the Holy Spirit over them.

I think it a challenge enough to live the Gospel in its fullest in modern America…

The foundation and sacramentalization of the priesthood was instituted at the Last S upper and our Lord said, ‘Do this’…not write it down… He was ‘doing’ His apostles, all male as the foundation of His church.

It is a great temptation for women religious to envy the priesthood…But it is better we be faithful to the nature God gave us…St. Therese the Little Flower wished she could have been a priest as she cleaned the sacred vessels after Mass…yet look at the recognition she has received by being however faithful to the simple way in loving Christ.

 

[Edmundus1581]

…

But to answer your question, Pentecostals are big on the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Probably the most influential verse is the prophecy of Joel 2:28, 29 fulfilled in Acts 2:16-18. Pentecostals believe the fact that the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh and that women are, as well as men, to prophesy indicates women’s inclusion in ministries in the new covenant.

We look back to the Old Testament and see women exercising strong leadership roles: Miriam the prophet alongside her brothers Moses and Aaron, Deborah the prophet and judge of Israel, and the lesser known prophet Huldah (2 Kings and 2 Chronicles). In the New Testament we note that there were also women involved in ministry like Tabitha (Dorcas), the prophetic daughters of Philip, the women Euodia and Syntyche who worked with Paul, Priscilla another worker with Paul, and other women are mentioned by Paul as laborers in ministry. Then there is Phoebe, diakonos at the church at Cenchrea.
Further information and defense of the Pentecostal position from a biblical viewpoint can be found in an Assemblies of God position paper, The Role of Women in Ministry As Described in Holy Scripture.

The easiest explanation is that Pentecostals believe that if God has given a woman the required gifts and graces to preach and teach effectively, who are we to say she shouldn’t?

Pentecostals aren’t feminists by any means, and men continue to make up the majority of the leadership of Pentecostal churches. However, we don’t believe women are in a subordinate position in the church.

Thankyou kindly, Itwin - that is a perfect answer to my question! I can see the logic, and accept it as based on scripture. I read you linked position paper as well, and was impressed! I note that the paper addressed some of the prominent scriptural arguments against ordination also, eg. “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:12), and even addressed the contextual issues for Gal 3:28.

From a Catholic point of view it is noticeable that the paper addresses women in “ministry” and “spiritual leadership”, whereas in the Catholic Church we have “ordination” to the priesthood as being a very specific kind of ministry, and the most important. The arguments in the paper in favour of women in “ministry”, in the more general sense, would probably by accepted by Catholics also. We also need to address “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man”, as we do in fact allow this to happen, except within the ordained heirarchy.

One disapointment though was that while the position paper addressed the well known objections to women’s ordination from the epistles, it didn’t acknowledge the most important objection of all - that Jesus chose only men for his apostles, which is the primary reason for the unchanging Catholic tradition. (see John Paull II Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS).

Overall, I found that your response and the position paper a strong and worthy reminder, based on both the OT and NT, of the important roles of women in the Church.

You response has confirmed something important for me - that the argument for the ordination of women, or, more correctly, the inclusion of women in ministry, is more than a superficial reading of Gal 3:28.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Thankyou to other posters also. I have enjoyed reading your contributions, but I particularly wanted to address itwin’s post, as it was the closest to what I was hoping for, namely a serious scriptural argument for the the ordination of women in Protestant communions.

 

[ltwin]

Thankyou kindly, Itwin - that is a perfect answer to my question! I can see the logic, and accept it as based on scripture. I read you linked position paper as well, and was impressed!

I’m glad it was informative.

I note that the paper addressed some of the prominent scriptural arguments against ordination also, eg. “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:12), and even addressed the contextual issues for Gal 3:28.

I never exactly understood why this in particular would be an insurmountable problem. I mean, Paul also says that women must cover their heads when they pray and prophesy. No woman covers her head while praying, either in church or in private, today, unless perhaps you are one of those African American church ladies wearing one of those infamous hats!

From a Catholic point of view it is noticeable that the paper addresses women in “ministry” and “spiritual leadership”, whereas in the Catholic Church we have “ordination” to the priesthood as being a very specific kind of ministry, and the most important. The arguments in the paper in favour of women in “ministry”, in the more general sense, would probably by accepted by Catholics also.

The Assemblies of God (like Pentecostals in general) is not a sacramental church. Pentecostal denominations ordain ministers for accountability. However, it is God who calls a man or woman to preach his Word. And it is God who gives the church apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, etc. In ordination, the church discerns that a man or woman is prepared for ministry, recognizes that call and holds the person accountable to ministerial standards. However, the call is independent of any congregation or denomination. It comes directly from God.

On a historical note, the Assemblies of God initially when it was founded in the early 20th century allowed women to be evangelists and missionaries, but they reserved the office of pastor to men. The reason? They didn’t want women exercising independent authority over men.

Women were actually allowed to be pastors in 1934. However, there were women preaching in Pentecostal churches since the beginning. Several denominations were founded by women, the most prominent is the Church of the Foursquare Gospel, started by Aimee Semple McPherson.

One disapointment though was that while the position paper addressed the well known objections to women’s ordination from the epistles, it didn’t acknowledge the most important objection of all - that Jesus chose only men for his apostles, which is the primary reason for the unchanging Catholic tradition. (see John Paull II Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS).

I don’t know why it would feel the need to address it. To be honest, that kind of argument just doesn’t really matter to Pentecostals. We’re sure Christ had his reasons, but we don’t see what it has much to do with women clergy.

Your post originally asked about Anglicanism? Here is a report from within the Anglican Mission in the Americas (one of the conservative Anglican bodies which withdrew from the Episcopal Church over matters of sexuality) which they commissioned on the topic: A Report of the Study Concerning the Ordination of Women Undertaken by the Anglican Mission in America (A Survey of the Leading Theological Convictions).

 

[Edmundus1581]

Thanks again, Itwin. The whole understanding of “ministry” within Pentecostals, as explained by you, is something new to me, and it helps me understand why the Catholic opposition to ordination of women does not so obviously transfer to non-sacramental communions. As I said previously, we too have women in ministry and authority (eg. RCIA directors), and your arguments would generally apply to us as well.

Thankyou also for the link to the Anglican report. I will be reading it with interest.

Once again, I do find it encouraging to see how these positions, which are so foreign to Catholics at first glance, can be held along with sola scriptura, and that is some common ground.

~ Edmundus

 

[Della]

Many non-Catholic, non-liturgical bodies will cite:

1Pet.2:5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

From this verse and citing others they claim there is no longer any need for an ordained priesthood, only preachers, teachers, missionaries, etc. If that were the case, and denying Christ established any sacraments, but only allowed symbols of the faith to remain, then there is no need to be concerned from whom we receive the word of God or even communion.

Another verse they cite is:

Mark.15:38 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

matching it with:

Heb.10:20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh…

Many claim the priesthood was abolished by Christ therefore we need no priest to represent Christ, but can go directly to him–as if priests were a hindrance rather than a medium, but that’s another issue. So again, if there is no priesthood, it doesn’t matter who preaches or teaches us.