What is the Standard Mass of the Catholic Church (Latin Rite)?"

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I’m not particularly learned in this area so I’ll mention but one thing:
Atreyu said:
At the council of Trent the “Traditional latin mass” was declared the normative or standard mass for the latin rite of the Catholic Church forever more. (I take this on assumption)
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Don’t take it on assumption. Check the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent for yourself (Book). If you’re not feeling up to the task of searching the documents simply ask your friends for citations. Taking things on assumption could lead you anywhere and be utterly ridiculous (Eg. The Council of Lyons decreed that there’s a big, purple elephant in the room). Assuming things is very dangerous (Especially concerning this since it could lead to schism), make it a habit to check for yourself and ask for citations.

I have heard this argument before but I can’t seem to recall where I found an answer. If I find something I’ll share it though.
 
Well the reading of Quo Primum that the Missal of Pius V is to be celebrated forever is not entirely accurate. The actual wording of the document is as follows…
Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women - even of military orders - and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.
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I am no expert in extracting the relevant details from this, but there are some very basic principles that all Catholics should be aware of.
  1. The Pope is the Supreme Legislator. Both Pope Pius V and Pope Paul VI have equal authority in their Apostolic Constitutions. Apostolic Constitutions concern matters of faith or discipline. Matters of discipline can be changed.
  2. It is not for the laity to interpret Church Documents, independent of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, and pass their own judgements on them. This mistake of the Deformation era should not be repeated.
  3. Quo Primum is the document where universal permission to celebrate the TLM was granted. Missale Romanum abrogated Quo Primum itself, meaning that the universal permission to celebrate the TLM is removed. the TLM itself however, still exists and with proper permission can still be celebrated. 4. Just because the offering of sacrifice is in conformity to previous documents, in itself it is not self-authorising. It must be offered in unity with the Bishop who in the words of St Ignatius of Antioch, is a living image of God the Father. To celebrate the Mass apart from or in opposition to the Bishop’s approval is something that is highly irregular, and it something that Quo Primum itself does not authorise.
  4. It is extremely important in our worship, reading of scripture and understanding God’s revelation that we be united with the Apostles and their successors.
    (Scott Hahn talks about 4 & 5 in catholic.com/audio/2006/MP3/ca060802b.mp3 at around the 20 min mark)
 
I just read through this:
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum_en.html.

I think what my friends told me is correct, with respect to the following that I’ve lifted from your quote of Quo Primum above, demerzel85:
This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world…
That being said, I agree with your assessment that “Missale Romanum abrogated Quo Primum itself”, even if it did not explicitly say so, and so my friends would be wrong to assert that the TLM is the official mass of the Church. Don’t worry about the schismatic issue, I’m pretty sure we’re all well-informed enough to safely dodge that issue. My diocese has a monthly TLM that I sometimes attend, but it is done with full permission of the bishop. Personally, I think I prefer the 1970 mass for a few reasons, but I would love to see this done in latin and with some Gregorian Chant. Oh well.

To conclude, the ordo missae 1970 (latin) is the standard mass of the latin rite of the Catholic Church right? But this has already been updated with the ordo missae 2002, pending implementation? Have I got it right (including my use of the terms ordo missae etc)?
 
Yes, I think you have it Atreyu. It doesn’t make sense for the Missale Romanum to still exist if it did not abrogate the Quo Primum.

If you’re looking for the 1970 Mass as it ought to be done, there’s a thread somewhere else in the forums discussing parishes. I don’t recall anyone posting something in Australia yet but it may arise. Maybe put in a request?
 
Aureole said:
Yes, I think you have it Atreyu. It doesn’t make sense for the Missale Romanum to still exist if it did not abrogate the Quo Primum.

If you’re looking for the 1970 Mass as it ought to be done, there’s a thread somewhere else in the forums discussing parishes. I don’t recall anyone posting something in Australia yet but it may arise. Maybe put in a request?
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Thanks Aureole, and demerzel85. Aureole I highly doubt that there’d be a 1970 mass (as it ought to be done) in my city. If there were such a thing, then I’m sure I’d know about it. I think I already mentioned that I’ve been to a few traditional latin masses (would that be the 1962 Missale Romanum, demerzel?), but as I prefer the form of the 1970 mass, I think I would love to see more of those, the way it’s meant to be. I have connections to the archbishop, maybe I’ll ask him about it…
 
The standard Mass of the Latin Rite Catholic Church is the Mass of the Current Missal. Period.
 
I’ve heard the term “derrogate,” as opposed to “abrogate” used to describe what happend to the Pian Mass when the Pauline Mass became the normative Latin Rite. Can anyone comment?
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I’ve heard the term “derrogate,” as opposed to “abrogate” used to describe what happend to the Pian Mass when the Pauline Mass became the normative Latin Rite. Can anyone comment?
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I’ve never heard of this. It seems slightly misleading though.

Derogate would imply that the 1970 Missale Romanum either: A) detracted from the 1962 Mass or; B) deviated from the standard. This could be true if A is meant, but I think it’s false if B is meant.

Abrogate seems to imply that the 1970 Missale Romanum annuled or repealed, by authority of the Church, the old Mass, which certainly seems to be the case. Comments?
 
Aureole said:
I’ve never heard of this. It seems slightly misleading though.

Derogate would imply that the 1970 Missale Romanum either: A) detracted from the 1962 Mass or; B) deviated from the standard. This could be true if A is meant, but I think it’s false if B is meant.

Abrogate seems to imply that the 1970 Missale Romanum annuled or repealed, by authority of the Church, the old Mass, which certainly seems to be the case. Comments?
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How about “obrogate”:
To annul indirectly by enacting a new and contrary law, instead of by expressly abrogating or repealing the old one.
I think this probably fits better perhaps?
 
Atreyu said:
How about “obrogate”:To annul indirectly by enacting a new and contrary law, instead of by expressly abrogating or repealing the old one.I think this probably fits better perhaps?
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I think the term used for the change from the '62 Missal to the '70 Missal is obrogate.
 
Atreyu said:
Nice one MusicMan! Nothing like ignoring an entire thread, hey?
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Haven’t had much time to participate early in the thread. I’m still right. The Standard Mass of the Latin Rite is the Mass of the current Missal. One needs an indult to celebrate any of the other Masses available in the Latin Rite, from the TLM to the Anglican Use to the Ambrosian Rite. Only the Mass of the current Missal is standard because the others require an indult.
 
MusicMan said:
Haven’t had much time to participate early in the thread. I’m still right. The Standard Mass of the Latin Rite is the Mass of the current Missal. One needs an indult to celebrate any of the other Masses available in the Latin Rite, from the TLM to the Anglican Use to the Ambrosian Rite. Only the Mass of the current Missal is standard because the others require an indult.
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The Ambrosian also in Milan?
 
Atreyu said:
How about “obrogate”:
To annul indirectly by enacting a new and contrary law, instead of by expressly abrogating or repealing the old one.
I think this probably fits better perhaps?
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That sounds about right. Abrogate and derogate are lacking, obrogate it is then!
 
MusicMan said:
Haven’t had much time to participate early in the thread. I’m still right. The Standard Mass of the Latin Rite is the Mass of the current Missal. One needs an indult to celebrate any of the other Masses available in the Latin Rite, from the TLM to the Anglican Use to the Ambrosian Rite. Only the Mass of the current Missal is standard because the others require an indult.
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Wouldn’t they still retain the actual rite to have the Ambrossian in Milan?
 
I was not sure how to vote—so I chose the last option. To me the Mass that was envisioned in Vat II follows along the lines of what Lux_et_veritas has shown us at Assumption Grotto. The options above —have Vat II in one option and Latin in another. As far as I can see–both the TLM and the NO are standard Masses of the Church.
 
MusicMan said:
Haven’t had much time to participate early in the thread. I’m still right. The Standard Mass of the Latin Rite is the Mass of the current Missal. One needs an indult to celebrate any of the other Masses available in the Latin Rite, from the TLM to the Anglican Use to the Ambrosian Rite. Only the Mass of the current Missal is standard because the others require an indult.
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Why the arrogance? If you want to participate in this thread, then how about reading through it and actually participating in the thread, rather than the high-horse approach? I’m talking about the “Period.” and the “I’m still right”. Well congratulations.

Maybe I’m reading something in your posts that isn’t there, but to me the two bits I quoted come off as arrogant. The rest of your second post was fine though.
 
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