What is the standard skeptics use for "mass hallucination"?

[Della]

Sensational story, fast bucks, Pulitzer prize…

The people who work in the media wouldn’t know the truth if they fell over it…

C’mon. The guy came to mock and write up a piece about stupid peasants and their antiquated beliefs, and saw, along with everyone else, the sun move and the earth dry after an all night soaking rain. You can’t just chalk it up to sensationalism. It happened. You don’t have to believe it was a miracle of God. But, it happened just the same, no matter what the explanation might be. So, what is the explanation? We may never know.

No I don’t… I think the whole thing was probably blown completely out of proportion.

Remember the Swine Flu epidemic last winter that was going to decimate the human race?

Remember the Iraqi Nuclear Weapons program that could take out Western Targets in 45 minutes?

Remember the test planes flying in the Nevada Desert in the late 1940’s that have now turned into flying saucers?

Remember the Quatraines of Michele De Nostradame, that predicted the end of civilisation in 1999 and how they were married to the Y2K bug that was going to cripple the global Internet?

Things are blown out of proportion all the time. People are very susceptible to suggestion.

None of those were well documented events that can be verified by witnesses who weren’t even there. People miles away, who knew nothing about the alleged apparitions saw the sun move and thought it was the end of the world. It happened. Once again, it may not fall into your definition of a natural event, but that doesn’t make any difference. At one time scientists believed the universe was stationary, never to change again, but they were wrong. That doesn’t mean they were bad scientists, it just means they didn’t have all the facts. You simply don’t have all the facts, but the events of Fatima happened just the same. No amount of denying it will make it go away.

 

[Moonstruck888]

C’mon. The guy came to mock and write up a piece about stupid peasants and their antiquated beliefs, and saw, along with everyone else, the sun move and the earth dry after an all night soaking rain. You can’t just chalk it up to sensationalism. It happened. You don’t have to believe it was a miracle of God. But, it happened just the same, no matter what the explanation might be. So, what is the explanation? We may never know.

I wouldn’t chalk it up to a miracle either. How exactly was the world a better place after this so called miracle? What had changed? Who’s life was better?

None of those were well documented events that can be verified by witnesses who weren’t even there. People miles away, who knew nothing about the alleged apparitions saw the sun move and thought it was the end of the world. It happened. Once again, it may not fall into your definition of a natural event, but that doesn’t make any difference. At one time scientists believed the universe was stationary, never to change again, but they were wrong. That doesn’t mean they were bad scientists, it just means they didn’t have all the facts. You simply don’t have all the facts, but the events of Fatima happened just the same. No amount of denying it will make it go away.

It sounds like a prettu natural event for me. A meteorological phenomenon of some kind, or perhaps unusual solar activity…

 

[Della]

I wouldn’t chalk it up to a miracle either. How exactly was the world a better place after this so called miracle? What had changed? Who’s life was better?

The people of Portugal benefited because the government had to restore their freedom of religion, and millions of people around the world have found renewed faith and hope from it. The latter are intangibles, but so are love and beauty and joy. Man does not live by bread alone, you know. When people have faith and hope they are happier and generally better able to cope with life’s challenges.

It sounds like a prettu natural event for me. A meteorological phenomenon of some kind, or perhaps unusual solar activity…

I can’t say it wasn’t, but how do you account for the ground and everyone’s clothes drying after being soaking wet? There’s more here than can be explained by what we have observed in nature, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t/didn’t happen, just that it’s unexplainable.

 

[Moonstruck888]

The people of Portugal benefited because the government had to restore their freedom of religion, and millions of people around the world have found renewed faith and hope from it. The latter are intangibles, but so are love and beauty and joy. Man does not live by bread alone, you know. When people have faith and hope they are happier and generally better able to cope with life’s challenges.

So why did God not let the rest of the world see it? Very soon to be communist Russia, for example, was very repressive of religion. Why didn’t they see it?

I can’t say it wasn’t, but how do you account for the ground and everyone’s clothes drying after being soaking wet? There’s more here than can be explained by what we have observed in nature, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t/didn’t happen, just that it’s unexplainable.

I don’t accept that such a thing actually occurred. I have checked for Solar eclipses on that date and found that there were none. The paucity of any real data on the matter is making a reasonable investigation a proidigous task that I am currently to busy to engage in.

 

[StevieD]

Admittedly slightly off-topic but here goes -
The famous French writer Emile Zola went to Lourdes not long after the apparitions and told the press in a great fanfare in Paris that he would believe if he ‘saw even a cut finger healed’. On the train to Lourdes, he met a woman called Marie Lemarchand whose nose and mouth had been eaten away and whose face oozed pus. Zola showed her great kindness throughout the journey.
After a few days in Lourdes, a doctor and member of the medical commission sought out Zola to tell him that a wonderful healing had occurred and invited him to meet the person involved, he went, it was Marie whose face was totally healed.
Zola said ‘she is still not very pretty’ and just walked away. He later said that if every sick person in Lourdes were cured, he still would not believe.
‘Woe to thee O Corozain…’ Those who ignore clear evidence of the existence of God are in great spiritual peril.

 

[StevieD]

I don’t accept that such a thing actually occurred. I have checked for Solar eclipses on that date and found that there were none. The paucity of any real data on the matter is making a reasonable investigation a proidigous task that I am currently to busy to engage in.

Let me make life easier. Go to this link and read what the journalists from the (anti-Catholic) newspapers said. If you don’t believe it get copies of the original papers and hire a translator.

incorruptibles.info/fatima_reports.html

But you won’t because it couldn’t have happened could it?

 

[kaid100]

But this is exactly my point. You assume that there is science behind a miracle.

Suppose there are scientific explanations for miracles. Then, the supernatural explanation of a miracle is redundant. The event happened (according to the scientist) because of scientific rules. But then why call it a miracle?

As soon as you “find the science” behind a miracle, you negate the miracle.

All this is true, assuming we are using the word miracle to mean “That which is unexplainable by science”. If we use the word miracle to mean “That which has been caused by an intelligent deity with free will”, then finding the science behind it would not negate the miracle. Scientists have no problem with using the scientific method in a world where there are beings with intelligence and free will because we live in such a world ourselves, we humans have both those qualities and our existence does not make science “not work”. We understand that the tides are caused by the moon and sun even though sometimes we can make artificial wave machines (in swimming pools, say) that make waves by different methods. In a world where a deity actively and openly made changes to the world (a Virgin Birth every few years, spoken messages to world leaders, burning bushes in every church) scientists wouldn’t sit on their hands, they would investigate all of these to build an understanding of how the deity makes these changes and the effects of them. They would look at the DNA of the virgin births and compare it to that of the mother to see where the normally-paternal chromosomes look like. They would analyse the light spectrum of the burning bushes and compare it to standard fire, to see if there was an manmade way to reproduce the deity’s ability and to build a more complete understanding of how the universe works. Psychologists would analyse the deity’s messages to understand his (or her) thought processes.

Unfortunately, however, finding the science is an inductive, not a deductive, task. Among the possible causes NOT included in the scientific induction is divine causation. Unfortunately, the number of inductive possibilities we allow for is determined by our past experiences and theories. Thus, an ontology that does not include divine beings can never include divine beings unless the theory changes to allow it.

Unless the theory changes to allow it… and this is exactly what happens in science, theories change to fit new data.

This is basic metascience, but many scientists haven’t even considered it.

 

[Moonstruck888]

But you won’t because it couldn’t have happened could it?

The evidence for it is to say the least questionable.

 

[AntiTheist]

In 1917 in Fatima, Portugal, around the same amount of people 40,000 witnessed a miracle of the sun which the Catholic Church deemed “worthy of belief”, yet many skeptics claim this was “mass hallucination”?

Why?

Well, for starters, unlike your World Cup example, we have a lot of really good evidence that the sun in fact did not move at all.

Item: The fact that no observatories recorded any unusual solar activity, including those with telescopes trained on the sun.

Item: The fact that the massive effects that we would expect to see if the sun ever moved from its position – that is, the end of the solar system, as all planets fly out of their orbits and off into the reaches of space – have not been observed. If the sun had ever moved around and “danced,” then the effects on planetary orbits would be undeniable – there is no such evidence.

So, what we’re faced with in Fatima is people reporting seeing something (“The sun was dancing!”) which we know, conclusively, for a fact, based on evidence did not happen that day.

That is a textbook example of a hallucination: people seeing something that wasn’t actually there.

However, there is also ample evidence that people in that one area saw something that day, something that looked for all the world like a dancing sun. Okay – so a lot of people made the same error in perception.

The question before us now is this one: what caused that error in perception?

My answer, and I think the best answer to this question, is an honest one: I don’t know. Some people have suggested natural causes and others have suggested supernatural ones. I don’t think the evidence is sufficient to say that the cause is supernatural.

And even if the evidence were sufficient to say that the event was supernatural, there’s not sufficient evidence to say that it was your god, as opposed to, say, a bunch of wandering Hindu spirits who decided to play a practical joke on the crowd.

 

[Della]

So why did God not let the rest of the world see it? Very soon to be communist Russia, for example, was very repressive of religion. Why didn’t they see it?

Even if the whole world saw it, according to your own understanding of the way things happen, it wouldn’t have made any difference. I don’t know if you are familiar with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but the upshot of the story is that even if one rose from the dead people would not believe. And how true that is!

As to why Russians didn’t see it, I can only guess, but knowing what I do of God’s ways, I believe it was because at the time the Russian people were too preoccupied with their own situation to see the dangers of communism. God has to deal with people as they are, not as they ideally ought to be. Jesus himself said he couldn’t perform many miracles in one area of Palestine because of the peoples’ unbelief. Another reason is that God wished to alert the world to the coming danger through three humble children to remind us all that it is in weakness that we are strong, not in overpowering strength. Gandhi understood this principle that started a revolution in India. God sees the big picture not our limited human perception of our life and times.

I don’t accept that such a thing actually occurred. I have checked for Solar eclipses on that date and found that there were none. The paucity of any real data on the matter is making a reasonable investigation a proidigous task that I am currently to busy to engage in.

Luckily for us that prodigious task has already been done. There are several good books on the topic. Just do a Google search.

AntiTheist:

And even if the evidence were sufficient to say that the event was supernatural, there’s not sufficient evidence to say that it was your god, as opposed to, say, a bunch of wandering Hindu spirits who decided to play a practical joke on the crowd.

Except, of course, no Hindu spirits promised a sign from heaven on that date and time, but the Virgin Mary did, and it happened–God sent a sign. Signs aren’t necessarily unnatural events that cannot be explained, but rather extraordinary events that grab our attention. The sun appearing to move in the sky certainly did that, along with everyone’s clothes and the ground drying after being soaked by heavy rains–the latter being something one cannot explain merely by claiming mass hallucination.

 

[inocente]

What about the recent apparition of Christ in Nigeria nigerianobservernews.com/06082010/news/news1.html? It was witnessed by thousands of people. Was this too, mass hallucination?

These are city folk, they probably all have mobile phones good for taking pictures, and the apparition was around long enough for professionals to photograph the crowd. Has anyone found a photo of the apparition online?

I tried and failed, but it doesn’t seem to be in the same class as Fátima. The reporters are a little bit skeptical:

They also helpfully added that it may be difficult for a layman and non-Catholic to decipher.

Online Nigeria

Chief Igbafe noted that she was marveled that Jesus Christ appeared along Airport Road where the governor was carrying out solid road construction project.

In her words, “the most wonderful part of it is that he appeared along Airport Road where the governor is constructing a very solid road with drainages.”
She noted that Oshiomhole is God sent to the state.

Nigerian News Service

 

[humble_catholic]

Well, for starters, unlike your World Cup example, we have a lot of really good evidence that the sun in fact did not move at all.

Item: The fact that no observatories recorded any unusual solar activity, including those with telescopes trained on the sun.

Item: The fact that the massive effects that we would expect to see if the sun ever moved from its position – that is, the end of the solar system, as all planets fly out of their orbits and off into the reaches of space – have not been observed. If the sun had ever moved around and “danced,” then the effects on planetary orbits would be undeniable – there is no such evidence.

So, what we’re faced with in Fatima is people reporting seeing something (“The sun was dancing!”) which we know, conclusively, for a fact, based on evidence did not happen that day.

That is a textbook example of a hallucination: people seeing something that wasn’t actually there.

However, there is also ample evidence that people in that one area saw something that day, something that looked for all the world like a dancing sun. Okay – so a lot of people made the same error in perception.

The question before us now is this one: what caused that error in perception?

My answer, and I think the best answer to this question, is an honest one: I don’t know. Some people have suggested natural causes and others have suggested supernatural ones. I don’t think the evidence is sufficient to say that the cause is supernatural.

And even if the evidence were sufficient to say that the event was supernatural, there’s not sufficient evidence to say that it was your god, as opposed to, say, a bunch of wandering Hindu spirits who decided to play a practical joke on the crowd.

As usual, another atheist leaving out the miraculous instanious drying and cleaning of the clothers. As far as why it was our God and not from another religion, lets seee, hmmm, could it be the fact that the holy Mother came to the children and told them that a miracle would happen on that day. I dont recall muhammad, a hindu god or buddha being the one they said told them about the miracle.

As I said if you want to disbelieve in something strongly enough you can find a hole in just about anything, but then again credibility starts to fade as in the case of even atheist historians calling the jesus mythers lunatics.

By this stretch , as we have been saying all along, even if God came down personally to someone like that they still wouldnt believe.

If you cant have a tiny, microscopic amount of faith how can you love? Oh , I forgot, Love is nothing more then electrical and chemical reactions

 

[Moonstruck888]

Even if the whole world saw it, according to your own understanding of the way things happen, it wouldn’t have made any difference. I don’t know if you are familiar with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but the upshot of the story is that even if one rose from the dead people would not believe. And how true that is!

I wouldn’t know. None of my friends have ever rose from the dead before. I shan’t hold my breath waiting for any of them to.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Well, for starters, unlike your World Cup example, we have a lot of really good evidence that the sun in fact did not move at all.

Other than the testimony of the 50,000 and the newspaper articles that say Italy won 2-1, what other evidence is there? Where is the scientific proof that Italy won? We have the same amount of evidence for Fatima, except the integrity of the witnesses is higher.

So, what we’re faced with in Fatima is people reporting seeing something (“The sun was dancing!”) which we know, conclusively, for a fact, based on evidence did not happen that day.

How do you know that Italy didn’t lose in 1934? What kind of standard are you using? How do you know that the people reporting that “the Italian football team was dancing after their victory!” isn’t a lie or a hallucination?

And even if the evidence were sufficient to say that the event was supernatural, there’s not sufficient evidence to say that it was your god, as opposed to, say, a bunch of wandering Hindu spirits who decided to play a practical joke on the crowd.

The three sheppard children were Catholic, they were not hindu. Jesus Christ referred to himself as “The Good Sheppard”. The sheep/sheppard metaphor/analogy is pervasive throughout the Bible–try a search in an online Bible concordance. They claimed to have seen the Virgin Mary, not Vishnu or Shiva. They had foreknowledge of the event that was witnessed by the 40,000+ people, which many people consider more miraculous than the actual event.

My last question for you is this. What about the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Zeitoun Church in Egypt in 1968? Aside from thousands of witnesses, we have photographic and video evidence of the event. Was the video forged? The photos, fabricated?

http://0.tqn.com/d/paranormal/1/0/T/K/mary_church_lg.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Lastly for our Baptist friend, why hasn’t Jesus or Mary ever appeared at a protestant church?

 

[Della]

I wouldn’t know. None of my friends have ever rose from the dead before. I shan’t hold my breath waiting for any of them to.

Neither have mine, except for one, but he now resides in heaven and on the altars and in the tabernacles of Catholic and Orthodox churches.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Neither have mine, except for one, but he now resides in heaven and on the altars and in the tabernacles of Catholic and Orthodox churches.

I like your jaunty style Della, for what it’s worth from an atheist…

 

[Della]

I like your jaunty style Della, for what it’s worth from an atheist…

:tiphat: I appreciate good humor and like to share it with everyone. Keep searching for the truth and he will reveal himself to you.

 

[Moonstruck888]

:tiphat: I appreciate good humor and like to share it with everyone. Keep searching for the truth and he will reveal himself to you.

I walk a different path Della. I’m glad your faith brings you joy…

 

[Della]

I walk a different path Della. I’m glad your faith brings you joy…

I’d like to recommend one book to you by a brilliant author who was a journalist, and some would argue, a humorist of great wit: Orthodoxy by G. K. Chesterton. You may have heard of him. Even if you don’t agree with what he writes, you will enjoy reading him.

 

[Moonstruck888]

I’d like to recommend one book to you by a brilliant author who was a journalist, and some would argue, a humorist of great wit: Orthodoxy by G. K. Chesterton. You may have heard of him. Even if you don’t agree with what he writes, you will enjoy reading him.

I’m familiar with Chesterton… I like his work, although I haven’t read any of it in years…