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Khalid
Guest
The Platonic idea of the Third Realm, about half a dozen pages in to the Timaeus.
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mercytruth
Guest
Khalid,
I’ll admit that trying to read Plato’s Timaeus gave me a headache. I skimmed it though, and could not really identify the third realm, unless it is the unity of the uncreated with the created universe. I hope St. Augustine did not take these meanderings too seriously.
I’ll admit that trying to read Plato’s Timaeus gave me a headache. I skimmed it though, and could not really identify the third realm, unless it is the unity of the uncreated with the created universe. I hope St. Augustine did not take these meanderings too seriously.
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bogeydogg
Guest
I know it was The City of God I cannot remember where and I have since given the book away. BTW Augustine was speaking inclusively of Bible verses as a means of refuting the neo-platonists who argued that the daemons (the spirits which inhabit the second Heaven but can touch the first and the the third and thus are conduits to God) were worthy of worship were in fact demons of Hell and worthy of no such thing.
He mentions the third heaven in passing now that I think on it and as I read it I drew the conclusion that this must have been what Paul meant.
There is a reason.
I was raised LDS and was taught about the three heavens there as three separate levels of salvation and had this verse thrown in my face many times by LDS folks who knew I had left the group so when I read this in The City I went, “Ahah! That is what Paul meant by the Third Heaven it has nothing to with gradations of salvation at all!”
So I confess this was my own conclusion drawn from a writing of Augustine when he was actually talking about something else.
But he did most definitely write about it in The City (the spirits of air and the three heavens) but I don’t remember where. Sorry:shrug:
God Bless
P
PJM
Guest
:blush:I didn’t know either:
here it is from Haydocks Catholic Commentary:
Ver. 2. I know a man, &c. He speaks of himself, as it were of a third person. — Whether in the body, I know not. If St. Paul himself knew not, how can we pretend to decide, whether his soul was for some moments separated from his body, or in what manner he saw God. (Witham) — It appears that this took place about the period when the Holy Ghost commanded that he should be separated for the work whereunto he was called. (Acts xiii. 2.)
God Bless,
Pat
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fisherman_carl
Guest
Any commentary that i have seen so far talks about it as a common Jewish belief.
“the third heaven: Reflects a common Jewish tradition that the Lord stacked the “heavens” three levels high: (1)the first heaven is the atmosphere of birds and clouds;(2) above that stands the realm of the sun and stars; (3) and beyond that lies the dwelling of God. Paul’s journey took him to the highest heaven, “Paradise” (12:3), where he caught a glimpse of eternal glory.”
- ICSB
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bogeydogg
Guest
Augustine says exactly the same thing but attributes it to Plato, but he does mention it only in passing and of course I realize that Augustine is not writing Scripture and Paul is. Also Augustine is neither arguing for or against this construct as my second post makes clear.
God Bless
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fisherman_carl
Guest
This article here about the Third heaven is interesting - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven
It makes no mention of Plato but does find evidence of a Third Heaven in the OT as well as extra biblical books like the book of Enoch.
The article states that the context in the letter to the Corinthians leads to the conclusion Paul is speaking of Paradise or Christian Heaven. The article also says that Paul makes allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses.
“In the Greek Pseudepigrapha Apocalypse of Moses the Third Heaven is the paradise where Michael buries Adam to await the resurrection of the dead. In the earlier section of the myth where Satan transforms himself to an angel of light, and works with the serpent to trick Eve, there is no identification of the Eden paradise as “Third Heaven”, which may indicate that Adam and Eve’s expulsion from paradise led to paradise being relocated in an area beyond human access.”
“Four allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses occur in close proximity in 2 Corinthians. The allusions are (i) “Satan as an angel of light”,[7] (ii) the distinction of Satan and the serpent as two beings,[8][9] (iii) “Third Heaven” [10] (iv) “Paradise”,[11] The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions, or alternatively whether Paul’s vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians. Whether this is so partly depends on whether irony is detected in this section.[12] The relationship of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism is still widely disputed.”
It makes no mention of Plato but does find evidence of a Third Heaven in the OT as well as extra biblical books like the book of Enoch.
The article states that the context in the letter to the Corinthians leads to the conclusion Paul is speaking of Paradise or Christian Heaven. The article also says that Paul makes allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses.
“In the Greek Pseudepigrapha Apocalypse of Moses the Third Heaven is the paradise where Michael buries Adam to await the resurrection of the dead. In the earlier section of the myth where Satan transforms himself to an angel of light, and works with the serpent to trick Eve, there is no identification of the Eden paradise as “Third Heaven”, which may indicate that Adam and Eve’s expulsion from paradise led to paradise being relocated in an area beyond human access.”
“Four allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses occur in close proximity in 2 Corinthians. The allusions are (i) “Satan as an angel of light”,[7] (ii) the distinction of Satan and the serpent as two beings,[8][9] (iii) “Third Heaven” [10] (iv) “Paradise”,[11] The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions, or alternatively whether Paul’s vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians. Whether this is so partly depends on whether irony is detected in this section.[12] The relationship of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism is still widely disputed.”
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mercytruth
Guest
I appreciate everyone’s contributions to this discussion.
I would like to focus on the Greek word for caught up, or translated. The verb is harpadzo.
It is the same verb found in 2 Cor. 12:2 , 1 Thess. 4:16, and Rev. 12:5.
In the Septuagint, this verb is rendered as ‘translated’ when speaking of Enoch in Wisdom 4:10: "He pleased God, and was beloved of him: so that living among sinners he was translated"
In Book V, Chap. V of Irenaeus’s Against Heresies, Irenaeus says that both Enoch and Elijah were translated or caught up to Paradise.
Ireneaus says,* “Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which were unspeakable as regards us in our present condition.”*
Need to pursue the origin of the Apocalypse of Moses, and also what St. Augustine has to say.
Thank you all.
I would like to focus on the Greek word for caught up, or translated. The verb is harpadzo.
It is the same verb found in 2 Cor. 12:2 , 1 Thess. 4:16, and Rev. 12:5.
In the Septuagint, this verb is rendered as ‘translated’ when speaking of Enoch in Wisdom 4:10: "He pleased God, and was beloved of him: so that living among sinners he was translated"
In Book V, Chap. V of Irenaeus’s Against Heresies, Irenaeus says that both Enoch and Elijah were translated or caught up to Paradise.
Ireneaus says,* “Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which were unspeakable as regards us in our present condition.”*
Need to pursue the origin of the Apocalypse of Moses, and also what St. Augustine has to say.
Thank you all.
M
mercytruth
Guest
I appreciate everyone’s contributions to this discussion.
I would like to focus on the Greek word for caught up, or translated. The verb is harpadzo.
It is the same verb found in 2 Cor. 12:2 , 1 Thess. 4:16, and Rev. 12:5.
In the Septuagint, this verb is rendered as ‘translated’ when speaking of Enoch in Wisdom 4:10: "He pleased God, and was beloved of him: so that living among sinners he was translated
In Book V, Chap. V of Irenaeus’s Against Heresies, Irenaeus says that both Enoch and Elijah were translated or caught up to Paradise.
Ireneaus says,* “Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, sucha as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which were unspeakable as regards us in our present condition.”*
Need to pursue the origin of the Apocalypse of Moses, and also what St. Augustine has to say. Thank you all.
I would like to focus on the Greek word for caught up, or translated. The verb is harpadzo.
It is the same verb found in 2 Cor. 12:2 , 1 Thess. 4:16, and Rev. 12:5.
In the Septuagint, this verb is rendered as ‘translated’ when speaking of Enoch in Wisdom 4:10: "He pleased God, and was beloved of him: so that living among sinners he was translated
In Book V, Chap. V of Irenaeus’s Against Heresies, Irenaeus says that both Enoch and Elijah were translated or caught up to Paradise.
Ireneaus says,* “Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, sucha as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which were unspeakable as regards us in our present condition.”*
Need to pursue the origin of the Apocalypse of Moses, and also what St. Augustine has to say. Thank you all.
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bogeydogg
Guest
Try Book 8 and 9 in The City of God especially when Augustine is refuting Apuleius (Book 8) who was teaching the worship of the daemons and was a neo-platonist. He continues in Book 9 to argue there that there is no distinction between good and evil daemons and only Christ can save a man’s soul.
Hope that helps
God Bless
Hope that helps
God Bless
M
mercytruth
Guest
Bogeydogg,
Thanks so much for the reference, that makes it much easier.
In some ways the neo-platonists sound familiar to some of the ideas of the kabbalah regarding union of the eternal and the created (if I am not mistaken). So, I am happy to hear that St. Augustine is refuting the neo-platonists.
**The Apocalypse of Moses **mentions seven firmaments (an idea of the kabbalah) and also the third heaven being Paradise. There is no indication that the early church fathers quoted from this book. The book may have been written before the NT…perhaps by a Jewish gnostic.
God bless.
Thanks so much for the reference, that makes it much easier.
In some ways the neo-platonists sound familiar to some of the ideas of the kabbalah regarding union of the eternal and the created (if I am not mistaken). So, I am happy to hear that St. Augustine is refuting the neo-platonists.
**The Apocalypse of Moses **mentions seven firmaments (an idea of the kabbalah) and also the third heaven being Paradise. There is no indication that the early church fathers quoted from this book. The book may have been written before the NT…perhaps by a Jewish gnostic.
God bless.
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