What is the thought on Old Testament salvation?

[frangiuliano115]

Christ’s death on the cross offers forgiveness of our sins - that’s not the same thing as cleaning up all those bad habits we made no effort to change during our life time.

I suppose I’m more aware of judgement than most because, as I’ve flogged to death on this site, I make the claim my own father turned up in my bedroom the night he died, way back in January 1979.

The final scene was him screaming his head off, and it was quite clear something was coming for him. Then he just vanished.

But suppose he’d made a deathbed confession as per the above.

I knew the man. He had a foul temper for a start, a sarcastic critical tongue, and was not averse to going behind our backs to do something nasty. I think I had a vision of my old pastor, who got to know a bit about him when he went to visit a former neighbour dying of cancer, remarking to one or more of his sons, “All this because of one cruel, stupid, bad-tempered vindictive man!” If they happen to be reading this, which they probably aren’t, they can correct me, but that is how he described him on third party evidence.

The former neighbour lived two doors away, so he knew what he was like.

What you’re saying is that not only is he going to be forgiven, but God would just wave a magic wand, and not only forgive him, but change his entire personality, so he no longer had a sarcastic tongue, a bad temper, or a manipulative personality.

In other words he would have become an agreeable heavenly puppet on a divine string, having made no effort whatsoever to clean up his act.

I don’t think so.

In the parable of the prodigal son, the Father might have been willing to forgive him. But the very next day, after the big party in heaven and all the angels had gotten over their hangovers, the Father would have expected him to go out in the field and join the morose elder brother doing the hard daily grind.

He expects some effort on our part. And we’re mistaken if we think we’re just going to waltz into heaven, not only with our sins forgiven, but all our failings corrected by some sort of deux ex machina.

Yes, well there’ll be no discussing this theologically because I see you are very personally involved.

I’ll tell you something I don’t like to speak about and have told maybe 3 people in my whole life. And I’m 70. It’s easy because we’re not vis a vis. Back in 1980 I was in Maine with my husband and two children 11 and 9 and also my young brother 15. To make a long story (which I don’t enjoy telling) very short, my brother and I heard something and it wasn’t any of us since the others were all fast asleep. We had to wake them up. My older brother saw something too, he was 26 at the time - but we can’t get into this.

I only bring it up to tell you that this has always bothered me because WHERE was the soul of this person if not in one of 3 places??? I try not to think about it.

Anyway, dying bed conversions are few and far between. Our heart grows hard, as the bible says, and it becomes ever so much more difficult to accept God.

I brought up Mathew 20, The Labourers in the Vineyard because they all got paid the same amount even though they started to work at different times of the day. This would be God’s justice - but we’ll dispense with that.

I agree that when the prodigal son woke up the next morning, he was required to go out and work or do what was required of him. This is a very good point which is never brought up with this parable.

But those “bad habits” you speak of, isn’t that our sins? Some people believe you have to get “good” first and then go to God, but we teach that you go to God and then you get “good”. If you are truly converted and believe that Jesus died for your sins you tend to want to be a good person and I believe that an internal change will occur. Otherwise, there’s something wrong.

What do you mean by deux ex machina? Do you believe Jesus was this?? I, for myself personally, have come to believe that it’s impossible for ANYONE to get into heaven unless they are depending on Christ to get them there. I know I don’t have to quote scripture verses to you. Our catholic church has also started teaching that we need to have a personal relationship with Jesus - just like the protestants.

Regarding your statement: “All this because of one cruel, stupid, bad-tempered vindictive man!” Yes. Much misery is caused by nature, some by ourselves and some by others. If only we all followed the 8 beatitudes!

So let’s go forward in confidence and trust that the Lord died for us and that he’ll save us and that we will one day be with Him. While doing our part!

God bless you
Fran

 

[rnmvrck]

Great post.

Christians also believe that Jesus did not come to specifically set up a “church” but to show us a different and correct way of living our life here on earth. Then a church becomes necessary to do this.

We do not only believe in being saved in the eternal sense but also in the sense that we are saved FROM our sins and are saved from the evil one and are saved to do good and to be free. Free from what is a whole different post but I think you know what I’m talking about.

We also are not saved by being “good” but by believing in the Lord Jesus, which helps us to be “good”. But therein lies our difference with you.

But how can you say you don’t believe in original sin? What does the first story of Genesis mean to you? Man was made to live in union with God, man fell, and that union was broken. This is original sin. Do you not believe this? It’s apparent that both evil and good exist in the universe. How would you interpret that scripture?

What you say re the purpose of the Messiah is true and no conversion to Judaism is necessary as confirmed by Paul in the New Testament. No circumcision necessary, etc.

So if Man fell, and there IS an afterlife, we DO need a savior since man is not perfect and is in need of “saving” in that eternal sense that you mention since God is a just God and cannot accept sinful man.

I must say that I DO have difficulty in understanding how Jewish people do not accept Jesus as Messiah. He fulfilled so many prophecies that it seems incredible to me not to believe that He is.

Interesting, though, that we are both waiting for Him to return: You for the first time and we for the second time!

I respect your reverence for God in not spelling out His name and hope you accept that we do.

God bless you
Fran

Just to answer your question about why the Jews do not believe in Jesus is becuase the Jews as a nation are blinded to who He was. If you go to Luke 19:42, Jesus weeps over the city and laments about the Jews not knowing his day of visitation (i.e., as it was wriiten in the OT). Then, Jesus says the Jews will be punished (city destroyed, the diaspara, blindness):

saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.

This blindness does not last forever and will be lifted according to Paul in Romans “when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in”. , i.e., the church, (body if Christ) is complete. Then God will start dealing with the Jews again. According to the OT, Jesus will not return until the Jews as a nation recognize who He is, and ask Him to return, and 3 days later He shows up His robe dipped in the blood (of his enemies) and He steps down on the mount of Olives to ascend to His throne as the the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Matt 23:38-39 also says:
“See! Your house is left to you desolate;“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’

 

[frangiuliano115]

Just to answer your question about why the Jews do not believe in Jesus is becuase the Jews as a nation are blinded to who He was. If you go to Luke 19:42, Jesus weeps over the city and laments about the Jews not knowing his day of visitation (i.e., as it was wriiten in the OT). Then, Jesus says the Jews will be punished (city destroyed, the diaspara, blindness):

saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.

This blindness does not last forever and will be lifted according to Paul in Romans “when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in”. , i.e., the church, (body if Christ) is complete. Then God will start dealing with the Jews again. According to the OT, Jesus will not return until the Jews as a nation recognize who He is, and ask Him to return, and 3 days later He shows up His robe dipped in the blood (of his enemies) and He steps down on the mount of Olives to ascend to His throne as the the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Matt 23:38-39 also says:
“See! Your house is left to you desolate;“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’

Yes. I know the above but am still always puzzled as to what it will take to convince the Jewish people except for the second coming of the Lord. You sound like you might be mid-trib, so yeah, maybe that’s what it’ll take.

But prophecy also says that the temple has to be standing. This could be a problem OR God could do whatever He wants!

Catholics don’t believe in the rapture. I don’t know - it plainly says one will be taken and one will be left. I’m not satisfied by how they explain it, but a lot of things don’t satisfy me, which is why I’m depending on Jesus and keeping my eyes on Him.

As you know, many Jewish people ae accepting the Lord as their savior and with the world going absolutely crazy, maybe Jesus won’t tarry much longer?

Thanks for your reply.

God bless you
Fran

 

[rnmvrck]

Maybe I wasn’t clear, but I meant the first destruction of the temple was by the Babylonians, and the Jews went into exile for 70 years. The second time, after the Roman destruction, the state of Israel ceased to exist for nearly 2000 years.

The Rabbis kept Judaism alive by a renewed emphasis on the Torah, or if you like, a Rabbinic tradition. But the temple sacrifices ceased due to the destruction of the temple, not a change in Jewish Theology.

On the business of Protestants not believing in Purgatory, what are we to make of someone who dies with a deathbed confession, realising at the last minute they’re in dire straits, but who hasn’t made one iota of effort during their life to “clean up”?

That’s an extreme case, but without Purgatory, anybody who dies having confessed Christ just walks into heaven, whether they’re an innocent child or a serial murderer.

I don’t believe that for a minute. The warning by Paul about one who “escapes as through the flames” ought to stop the disbelief in Purgatory.

I think the thief on the cross did what you consder to be the unthinkable — was in paradise that night!
Romans 10:10 –
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Christ did it all on the cross – all yours sins, past, present and future were paid in full at the cross. Once you are saved you go to heaven when you die. Anything else would diminish what Christ did at the cross. This discussion about purification after death is not scriptural nor found in the New or Old testament.

 

[Contarini]

But those “bad habits” you speak of, isn’t that our sins?

Yes, but why do you feel the need to re-translate it into “Christianese”?

In other words, once you call it “sins,” then you can say “forgiveness” and “grace” and so on and declare that the “sins” go away.

But if you think about them as they manifest themselves in actual people, they are habits–deeply ingrained habits. So while forgiveness is glorious and absolutely essential, transformation is necessary too.

Some people believe you have to get “good” first and then go to God, but we teach that you go to God and then you get “good”.

Right. And if the “getting good” hasn’t happened before you die, then the “getting good” is called “Purgatory.”

Edwin

 

[IGotQuestions]

I think the thief on the cross did what you consder to be the unthinkable — was in paradise that night!
Romans 10:10 –
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Christ did it all on the cross – all yours sins, past, present and future were paid in full at the cross. Once you are saved you go to heaven when you die. Anything else would diminish what Christ did at the cross. This discussion about purification after death is not scriptural nor found in the New or Old testament.

I have never understood this. I used to hear this in fundamental Baptist churches. There are many things not found in the Bible that non-Catholics do. How can we know who has the authority to interpret the Bible in this way?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I think the thief on the cross did what you consder to be the unthinkable — was in paradise that night!
Romans 10:10 –
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Christ did it all on the cross – all yours sins, past, present and future were paid in full at the cross. Once you are saved you go to heaven when you die. Anything else would diminish what Christ did at the cross. This discussion about purification after death is not scriptural nor found in the New or Old testament.

The thief on the cross made his confession and then continued to suffer terribly until the time he died. As far as I’m concerned he did his purgatory on the cross.

Secondly he was one of only two people to actually die with Christ. The other presumably perished, the unrepentant thief, but I believe the thief was a special case.

He also gave his testimony in very difficult circumstances - he was being crucified, the crowd was mocking, he had no real reason to believe in the man being crucified right next to him, and even the other thief was ridiculing Christ.

As far as I’m concerned, Purgatory is a logical requirement. Incidentally, anyone who goes to Purgatory gets to heaven eventually. But they don’t get in until they’ve dealt with all their failings. Heaven is literal perfection - there’s no place for any stains whatsoever.

I know of a pastor who, in the words of my own old pastor many years ago, “tells a lot of lies”, and continues to tell them as far as I know.

Where’s he going to go?

And Christ *didn’t do it all *- we’re expected to suffer with Him, and our sufferings are joined with His. As St. Paul wrote (Colossians 1:24 NIV) -

Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

As far as God is concerned, the sufferings of His body, the Church, are joined to those of Christ as part of redemption. Which is why we often suffer unjustly. What’s happening to the Christians in the Middle East right now? What happened to the Christians in the former Soviet Union? What’s happening to Christians in North Korea right now?

In part, redemptive suffering, whether we like it or not (and I don’t like it - it’s a lot easier to dump the whole load on Christ and just take the benefits), is part of being a follower of Christ.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes, but why do you feel the need to re-translate it into “Christianese”?

In other words, once you call it “sins,” then you can say “forgiveness” and “grace” and so on and declare that the “sins” go away.

But if you think about them as they manifest themselves in actual people, they are habits–deeply ingrained habits. So while forgiveness is glorious and absolutely essential, transformation is necessary too.

Right. And if the “getting good” hasn’t happened before you die, then the “getting good” is called “Purgatory.”

Edwin

“Christianese”, never heard that expression before.

Having had to teach what sin is, it seems to me that some distinction has to be made between a habit and a sin.

Leaving my front door open could be a bad habit but it’s not a sin.

Stealing habitually is a sin.

Yelling at my husband can be a habit and CAN also be a sin.

Would you not agree that the different words are important to teach the concept of sin?

I agree with you that transformation is necessary and even desired if one truly wants to be a disciple of Christ - of course you must know that this is called sanctification.

Uh oh. There I go with christianese again!

God bless you
Fran
I am not willing to discuss purgatory.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I have never understood this. I used to hear this in fundamental Baptist churches. There are many things not found in the Bible that non-Catholics do. How can we know who has the authority to interpret the Bible in this way?

You don’t state your religious designation so you might be searching.

There is a fundamental difference between caholics and protestants. (well, there are many but to your question–)

Protestants believe that you believe in the Lord Jesus with your heart and confess (speak) this belief with your mouth. In other words, you’re not ashamed of saying you believe in Jesus to peple when the occasion should occur. They believe that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross is a complete and total sacrifice and nothing needs to be added to this, for instance, baptism, speaking in tongues, religious works or any works. His sacrifice is sufficient to save us and will wash away all our sins, past, present and future as stated by mmvrck. Jesus “covers” us with His righteousness and God sees Him and not the sinful man we are.

Catholics believe that Jesus is the redeemer but we must add our good works to His salvific work. You have read other posters speak of “suffering” added to His. We must try not to sin (which is not to say that protestants think they could!) and if we do we must confess our sins to a priest and he, acting in the place of Jesus will absolve those sins. Jesus does NOT cover our sins but has just, in some way, paid the price for them, although not fully since we must also do works.

As for your statement:

There are many things not found in the Bible that non-Catholics do. How can we know who has the authority to interpret the Bible in this way?

It confuses me. It seems to me to be more the other way around - catholics do things not found in the bible (which come from Tradition).

It is pretty much up to you to search your conscience and decide which belief you are more comfortable with. Many will now get upset with me since the catholic church teaches that we have the fullness of the Lord’s grace, but not all will agree with this…And it is important to go to a church. You should do some studying on the doctrines of the Catholic church.

God bless you
Fran