What IS the True Church?

[CalmDownWisWins]

That is a very gracious reply, and I am unworthy of your praise. Thank you for your kindness. More of that kind of response would be welcome and certainly more inviting than the harsh rhetoric that is so common here.

Blessing upon you, may the peace of God be with you always

How interesting it is the “need for comfort” with so many protestants?

When it is so easy and simple to “change churches”, it makes perfect sense that needing to be catered to is more important than clarity, depth and truth.

 

[janw]

I did not make it to a Catholic Church until I was 50, of course as many I wasted my early 20’s thinking it didn’t really matter. I went back to the church of my youth, protestant, in my early 30’s… Even after learning what the Catholic Church taught, It took a lot of PRAYER and study, about 4 years worth before I finally decided I could go no where but the Catholic Church. It was hard,because it was very different than what I had known most of my life and all my family is protestant. Very deep down inside I came to know thats what God wanted for me as when I came upon something I didn’t get, I would pray and He would answer. If you are sincere with God, He will lead you where he wants you to be. Just be sure you are willing to follow him whereever. I believe what Martin Luther done was a big mistake and not what God intended but I do believe God uses protestants everyday to bring the unsaved to Him as we all know God can bring about good even from bad things. I believe He has lead me to the Catholic Church, I also believe he has many he wishes to leave in the other churches as they are here and souls need to be brought to Christ. We should continue to drawn near to him in prayer and study, but at the same time, live out our faith in Christ where we are at the moment to the best of our ability. I found the “search for truth” to be very hard, filled with spiritual warfare and very emotional, so it was not easy, but the narrow road is not meant to be easy. The best advise I can give is never take your eyes off JESUS, pray always as other Catholics or Protestants or at least most of them, will disappoint you, Christ will not! Will remember you in my prayers.

 

[SIA]

Forgive me SIA, I humbly stand to differ, the teachings of the Catholic Church are not man made. The doctrines and teachings of the Catholic faith come from Jesus himself and the apostles. The Tradition comes from the apostles themselves, your dissagreement is with Jesus and the apostles Christianity, that Christ instituted the universal (Catholic) Church. I dont want to disagree with your Catholic formation as a Catholic. As far as Scripture is concerned the Catholic Church authorized and gave us the bible that you believe in, why would the Catholic Church teach something contrary to the bible that she (Catholic Church) approved?

praying for wisdom

I do not wish for this to turn into a debate on where we got the Bible from. Let’s suffice it to say that I believe it came from the Early Church which I don’t believe was any connection of Roman Catholicism. I respect your zeal for the Catholic faith, I just simply do not agree that Jesus spoke soley to and about the Roman Catholic church. After all, Roman Catholic is found nowhere in Scripture.

 

[abcd]

I talk to Protestants who do not even believe what their denomination teaches. It makes me question why they attend that church. People reject the Catholic Church but somehow it is OK to attend a Protestant church and not be in full communion with their beliefs. Some of them do not even trust the Bible as a source of authority or trust. Then some people tend to focus too much on the Bible. Also, people tend to rely too much on faith. By that, I mean that belief and faith is enough. This somehow excludes them from needing to express their faith. This is probably the furthest dissension from the original Church. Does anyone ever read the Letter of James?

Trust in the Bible must stem from a trust in the Church. When there was only one Church, the Catholic Church, they compiled and canonized sacred Scripture. Even if Protestants reject some books, they are still accepting books that The Church decided upon.

I hope this does not come off sounding condescending: I feel like, denying the Catholic Church is essentially denying Jesus Christ. It almost feels like an insult to Jesus Christ. After Christ was resurrected he remained with His Apostles and disciples for 40 days. I trust that He established a Church for His followers and trusted them to pass it through generations without faltering. In the Bible it even says that Christ gave us a Church not a book. The Church that Jesus Christ gave us is the Church that gave us the Bible.

We must hope for the Love of Jesus Christ and trust His Church!
Amen, Amen

**You **accuse protestants of the same thing that catholics are guilty of. I have been involved with Catholics for many years and many catholic friends.

I have met catholics that do not agree with the pope. I have met acatholics priest that is an atheist. Most catholics I know do not agree with each other on many points of doctrine. I know of three catholics that claim to be the pope and the last three popes were or are anti-popes. I know you will tell me that these are no longer catholics but they are as much as a baptist that does not believe in eternal security. He still is a baptist and goes to the baptist church.
I
It is very convinient to just say “he is not a catholic anymore”

 

[EmergencyOps]

So, you reject the Church because of the actions of people?

That is very normal behavior. It is also judging the perfection of a peach by the smell of garlic.

Judge the Church as the Church, which means go to the doctrines of the Church and find those things which seem wrong to you about them, and then have many people explain why they are not wrong.

That is what I am doing, checking out the doctrines of the Catholic faith, any any that contradict my faith I take to friends and Catholic leaders that I know to explain them. I try not to let the actions of many Catholic bad apples taint my views on Catholicism as a whole.

-Mark

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

**You **accuse protestants of the same thing that catholics are guilty of. I have been involved with Catholics for many years and many catholic friends.

Yes. Even Popes have been downright evil in their humanness, but no person is representative of The Church in the Church’s holiness.

I have met catholics that do not agree with the pope. I have met acatholics priest that is an atheist. Most catholics I know do not agree with each other on many points of doctrine. I know of three catholics that claim to be the pope and the last three popes were or are anti-popes. I know you will tell me that these are no longer catholics but they are as much as a baptist that does not believe in eternal security. He still is a baptist and goes to the baptist church.

It is very convinient to just say “he is not a catholic anymore”

If a mathematician declares that 1+1=4, are they still a mathematician?

Look ONLY to the dogmas of the Church for ANY value of the holiness of the Church.

By your measure, above, All Christian organizations are evil and not to be followed, because some so-called Christians are evil.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

That is what I am doing, checking out the doctrines of the Catholic faith, any any that contradict my faith I take to friends and Catholic leaders that I know to explain them. I try not to let the actions of many Catholic bad apples taint my views on Catholicism as a whole.

-Mark

That’s very good that you don’t judge the Church by many of it’s rather bad members! Excellent.

But I’d like to know of a dogma of the Church which “contradict your faith”. Please show us some examples!

 

[abcd]

Forgive me SIA, I humbly stand to differ, the teachings of the Catholic Church are not man made. The doctrines and teachings of the Catholic faith come from Jesus himself and the apostles. The Tradition comes from the apostles themselves, your dissagreement is with Jesus and the apostles Christianity, that Christ instituted the universal (Catholic) Church. I dont want to disagree with your Catholic formation as a Catholic. As far as Scripture is concerned the Catholic Church authorized and gave us the bible that you believe in, why would the Catholic Church teach something contrary to the bible that she (Catholic Church) approved?

praying for wisdom

Gab,

Please give me chapter and verse that say’s the Roman Catholic church as it exist today is the only true church. Catholics have a habit of giving history that does not exist. To find the true history of the church go to the library and read the secular history of Christianity and you will see that the Church of Rome became pagan around 350 ad under constantine.

I agree with you SIA.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Gab,

Firstly, dear Abbie, if indeed you haven’t been around here very long, I would point you toward doing a search for info as regards the origins of the Church (Catholic), and if you have been around for some time, I would ask you to explain how you’ve missed out on the ever-present discussions regarding the origin of the Church.

Please give me chapter and verse that say’s the Roman Catholic church as it exist today is the only true church.

The Catholic Church as it exists “today” began, quite obviously, “today”, but we’re not talking about the Church of “today” but rather the Church as the Body of Christ which is the People of God.

That Church, the Church, began, as Christianity, at the time of Jesus’ having earthly life, and it began as pre-Christianity, truly, at the creation of our first parent with the First Covenant.

Catholics have a habit of giving history that does not exist.

Please support this statement.

To find the true history of the church go to the library and read the secular history of Christianity and you will see that the Church of Rome became pagan around 350 ad under constantine.

I agree with you SIA.

While that’s an interesting statement, it’s utter rubish. It is nice to knw precisely where you’re coming from, though, abbie!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gab,

Please give me chapter and verse that say’s the Roman Catholic church as it exist today is the only true church. Catholics have a habit of giving history that does not exist. To find the true history of the church go to the library and read the secular history of Christianity and you will see that the Church of Rome became pagan around 350 ad under constantine.

I agree with you SIA.

Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.**the Chair of Peter still exists in our presesnt Pope Benedict XVI, and the gates of the netherworld has not prevailed against Jesus Christ Church today just as he promises.

Matthew 28:19… Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, **and behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. **Jesus promises to be with his church until the end of the age.

Colossians 1:18 He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church.
? where is this church body that scripture speaks of, that Jesus has never left since he instituted the Church in the Apostles beginning with Peter today? To say the early church went into paganism is to hold Jesus in contempt of his promise to his church to be with her always.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is **the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

The last five books of the bible were addressed to the Universal (Catholic) Church.

The teachings of the Catholic Church can be found throughtout the New Testament first century church, and the teachings have not changed, Baptism, Last supper (holy Communion), Confession, Priests, Deacons,overseers (Bishops ) etc.

I think you may have been misinformed about the pagan part during Constantine reign. Historical Facts show that the Catholic church at that time was given liberty to worship God without persecution during Pagan cultures, which the Catholic church converted the many nations and baptized them…to the present time.

What is the True Church? Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call" one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one Gjod and Father of all, whos is over all and through all and in all.

For me, its the Church that Jesus Christ instituted 2000 yrs ago. The key is to find Where is that one church. As for me and my house The Church that Jesus Christ never left is the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.********

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Not for sure. I was raised Methodist, very strict. My posting name derives from my great grandfather for whom I was named. He was a Methodist Bishop. He was a hell fire and brimstone preacher of the very old school. So maybe the Wesley brothers?

I was a Presbyterian for a while and that didn’t work. But I did study Calvin a lot in college.

I was never influenced much by the main reformation clerics, if that is what you are alluding to.

I protest a whole lot about the RCC, but I respect you too much to delineate that right now.

Suffice it to say that I reject totally that the RCC is the one true church. Total rejection 100%!

If you are a protestant christian, then your beginnings are from the Catholic faith, Protestant are called seperated brethern. Your founders once believed in the Catholic Church teachings, Protestantism still possesses some of the Characteristics of Catholicism, depending from which protestant denomination you follow depends on which teachings your founders kept as Catholic Christians protested the faith and became seperated brethern. All the baptized under the trinitarian formula makes you part of the body of Christ and his Church.

Peace

 

[abcd]

Yes. Even Popes have been downright evil in their humanness, but no person is representative of The Church in the Church’s holiness.

If a mathematician declares that 1+1=4, are they still a mathematician?

Look ONLY to the dogmas of the Church for ANY value of the holiness of the Church.

By your measure, above, All Christian organizations are evil and not to be followed, because some so-called Christians are evil.

Your last statement above is not correct. You have to judge the organizations by their doctrine not because of some bad apples/

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
Yes. Even Popes have been downright evil in their humanness, but no person is representative of The Church in the Church’s holiness.

If a mathematician declares that 1+1=4, are they still a mathematician?

Look ONLY to the dogmas of the Church for ANY value of the holiness of the Church.

By your measure, above, All Christian organizations are evil and not to be followed, because some so-called Christians are evil.

Your last statement above is not correct. You have to judge the organizations by their doctrine not because of some bad apples/

It IS true that you shouldn’t judge an organization by it’s bad apples!

It seemed that when you said:

Quote:
I have met catholics that do not agree with the pope. I have met acatholics priest that is an atheist. Most catholics I know do not agree with each other on many points of doctrine. I know of three catholics that claim to be the pope and the last three popes were or are anti-popes. I know you will tell me that these are no longer catholics but they are as much as a baptist that does not believe in eternal security. He still is a baptist and goes to the baptist church.

…you were implying that “bad Catholics” make “Catholicism” itself bad because not all so-called Catholics are “good people”.

If I was wrong in that conclusion, I’m TERRIBLY sorry about that, because you’d be one of the very few non-Catholics who DON’T believe that “Catholic bad apples” **prove **that the Church is evil incarnate, and I like to support folks like you who think otherwise!

 

[abcd]

It IS true that you shouldn’t judge an organization by it’s bad apples!

It seemed that when you said:

Quote:
I have met catholics that do not agree with the pope. I have met acatholics priest that is an atheist. Most catholics I know do not agree with each other on many points of doctrine. I know of three catholics that claim to be the pope and the last three popes were or are anti-popes. I know you will tell me that these are no longer catholics but they are as much as a baptist that does not believe in eternal security. He still is a baptist and goes to the baptist church.

…you were implying that “bad Catholics” make “Catholicism” itself bad because not all so-called Catholics are “good people”.

If I was wrong in that conclusion, I’m TERRIBLY sorry about that, because you’d be one of the very few non-Catholics who DON’T believe that “Catholic bad apples” **prove **that the Church is evil incarnate, and I like to support folks like you who think otherwise!

**Your right. **I was just pointing out something that some catholics use against prots. Although I must say that not being evil or bad does not make one right with God. Some very good people were told by Christ–“depart from me, I never knew you”.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

**Your right. **I was just pointing out something that some catholics use against prots. Although I must say that not being evil or bad does not make one right with God. Some very good people were told by Christ–“depart from me, I never knew you”.

Amen!

It’s ALWAYS a bad idea to use the “bad apples” gambit, because if “the other side” has ANY sense they can beat you senseless with it!

And on your “depart from Me” line: AMEN to that, and the protestant “Lord Lord”-ing, even AFTER becoming educated in the truth by coming to places like this, drops the protestant “probable salvation quotient” down lower every day.

Then again, perhaps their new educated status makes a difference at their end? Who knows? Not me! Ain’t my job to know.

But, I gotta tell 'em the truth, however uncomfortable that may be to them. As does every Christian! Best to everybody in THAT good work!

 

[tGette]

I will ask AGAIN!
WHAT IS THE TRUE CHURCH?!?

If Catholicism is wrong then not every other denomination can be right. So then what is the TRUTH? Protestantism is not Truth because they all teach something different. To generically call yourself Protestant implies you are making of Christianity whatever you deem fitting.

Jesus Christ came to us so EVERYONE could follow. He did not intend for His Church to be understood by only intelligent theologians. Approaching Christ is meant to be simple.

Let me focus on the Eucharist. “THIS IS MY BODY!” What did Christ mean by this? Was it just a one time deal for His Apostles then all we got was some bread generations later? Early Christians were being condemned because of claims that they were cannibals. Must have been because they were claiming they were literally eating the flesh of Jesus Christ in the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Communion.

John 6:22-71
Even people at the time of Christ did not believe what Jesus Christ was teaching. It is understandable that if people AT THE TIME OF CHRIST could not wrap their heads around this idea, then it is fitting that people 2000 years later would have a hard time agreeing with the concept.

Again, the Bible. If the Bible is sole authority, then what did early Christians use as authority? There was no Bible so then how did they know how to live their faith? It was the TRADITION passed to them by the Apostles!

I agree there should be respect for each other but, to be able to get a point across one must put someone to the point of discomfort. And with that being said:

The Catholic Church is the church of Jesus Christ. Like John the Baptist, I am not here to make friends I am here to tell you the TRUTH!

DO NOT REJECT JESUS CHRIST IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN HIM! BY REJECTING HIS CHURCH, YOU REJECT HIM!

Christ would not just trust anyone to pass His Church through the ages. He did not say “to you Martin Luther I give the keys to Heaven.”

Jesus Christ died in vain if the Reformation proves the Catholic Church wrong.

 

[elvisman]

Calling Namesake - come in, Namesake:

Were you ever going to address the previous post?
You asked why unity was so important and I reponded with the following:

**Well, golly - JESUS **thought it was important and that’s good enough for ME:

John 17:20-23
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

I anxiously await your reply . . . :coffeeread:

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

If Catholicism is wrong then not every other denomination can be right. So then what is the TRUTH? Protestantism is not Truth because they all teach something different. To generically call yourself Protestant implies you are making of Christianity whatever you deem fitting.

.

Exactly. For the last 500 or so years, Protestant “denominations” have defied the authority of the Church founded by Christ. What is even more interesting, is that it took 1500 years of the Catholic Church for the Protestant movement to take hold…yet after only 500 or so years of Protestantism, it too is under attack by today’s so-called “non-denominationals”.

First the Protestants pull away from the Catholics, and now Protestants are protesting themselves. How Ironic.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I will ask AGAIN!

WHAT IS THE TRUE CHURCH?!?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Only the Catholic Church is the True Church.