What is the use of consciousness?

[Bahman]

Epiphenomenalism is interesting (believe me, I’ve studied the question quite thoroughly), but I’m uncomfortable with the “mind is inert” conclusion; it boils down to a sort of machine functionalism in the end. You might want to have a look at Chalmers’ naturalistic dualism.

And how you explain this experiment under substance dualism?

 

[RPRPsych]

And how you explain this experiment under substance dualism?

Naturalistic dualism isn’t substance dualism. It views the mind as an information space realized in the brain (sort of like “software / hardware”, but more complex).

 

[Bahman]

Naturalistic dualism isn’t substance dualism. It views the mind as an information space realized in the brain (sort of like “software / hardware”, but more complex).

How you understand the experiment under Naturalistic dualism?

 

[RPRPsych]

How you understand the experiment under Naturalistic dualism?

A decision and its conscious correlate can be made at a “software” level, but may register as a blip at the “hardware” level later, because of physical constraints. (That’s one possibility.)

 

[Bahman]

A decision and its conscious correlate can be made at a “software” level, but may register as a blip at the “hardware” level later, because of physical constraints. (That’s one possibility.)

But decision apparently first takes place in hardware (assuming there is no subconscious mind) then appears in software/consciousness based on what experiment shows.

 

[Aquinas21]

… assuming there is no subconscious mind …

I’m not really sure why anyone would make that assumption, especially considering the very large and extensive literature (Catholic and non-Catholic) that deals with (or at least involves to some extent in one way or another) the activities or contents of the subconscious mind (and other profound aspects of mind or soul or spirit or psyche).

In general terms, I think that Matter is more or less just the infrastructure for Spirit (so to speak), which is why I already included some basic links for idealism and even Jungian psychology in post 12. I’m reminded of the phrase in Psalm 139:14 in Protestant Bibles about human beings being “fearfully and wonderfully made”, although the verse is Psalm 138:14 in Catholic Bibles and the translation is not quite the same.

 

[jimmy]

The sequence is illustrate in a figure in wiki link I provided and it is as following: brain decide, then we become aware of decision then muscles act.

We all become conscious about our decisions before our action but decision itself is made before we become conscious about it.

This is also illustrate in wiki link and it is done by looking at position of the dot on the oscilloscope. They are asked to remember the time at which they decide by looking at the position of the dot.

It is reliable as he is a well know scientist in his filed.

That doesn’t make the data reliable. The scientists at penn state who manipulated the data on global warming a few years ago were well known in their field. Notoriety is no gauge for reliability.

 

[Aloysium]

Off the top of my head I would have to say that consciousness is of no use whatsoever.
I mean, consciousness and a dollar won’t even buy you a coffee. Try putting down that you are conscious on a CV and see if that gets you a job. I suppose that if I weren’t conscious, I would not be posting on the Internet, but that would not necessarily be a bad thing.
I think one needs to define “use” and “consciousness”; otherwise it sounds like nonsense, which I believe it will remain even after the definitions are in.

 

[Aloysium]

BTW:

. . . 1) God says that I raise my left hand 2) I deduce that I have to raise my right hand 3) I raise my right hand . . .

In another thread, I who am not omniscient predicted you would continue to post/think this this sort of stuff until you undergo a conversion.
You will not do otherwise.
If you will not even act counter to my forecasting, how would you ever not do what God knows you will choose. Please give this a rest.
Actually, I know you won’t.

 

[Aquinas21]

I now realize that in post 12 and post 26 I was thinking mainly about the significance of consciousness (as somewhat distinct from use).

 

[Bahman]

I’m not really sure why anyone would make that assumption, especially considering the very large and extensive literature (Catholic and non-Catholic) that deals with (or at least involves to some extent in one way or another) the activities or contents of the subconscious mind (and other profound aspects of mind or soul or spirit or psyche).

This is subject of debate how to define subconsciousness and where locate it. We can either accept that it is the part of body or spirit. In one hand, we have difficulty in accepting that is the body which decide for me/spirit and sprite just experience it. In other hand free will becomes an unconscious entity belonging to spirit which again many people goes against it since it seems, only seems, that we always make conscious decision using introspection which apparently is not an accurate method as the experiment suggest.

In general terms, I think that Matter is more or less just the infrastructure for Spirit (so to speak), which is why I already included some basic links for idealism and even Jungian psychology in post 12. I’m reminded of the phrase in Psalm 139:14 in Protestant Bibles about human beings being “fearfully and wonderfully made”, although the verse is Psalm 138:14 in Catholic Bibles and the translation is not quite the same.

Body becomes a part of our mind if we accept idealism and I agree with it to very large extend . One problem however arises from this point of view in which subconsciousness is located in body (if we accept so) hence spirit is prisoner of body since its only functionality is to experience what happen on the spot. In another hand the body is solely an infrastructure.

 

[Bahman]

That doesn’t make the data reliable. The scientists at penn state who manipulated the data on global warming a few years ago were well known in their field. Notoriety is no gauge for reliability.

Apparently this experiment was performed by other group as well for almost 20 years.

 

[Bahman]

BTW:

In another thread, I who am not omniscient predicted you would continue to post/think this this sort of stuff until you undergo a conversion.
You will not do otherwise.
If you will not even act counter to my forecasting, how would you ever not do what God knows you will choose. Please give this a rest.
Actually, I know you won’t.

That was a response to another post. I was not intended to discuss in that direction unless someone else raise the issue.

 

[Bahman]

… I suppose that if I weren’t conscious, I would not be posting on the Internet, but that would not necessarily be a bad thing…

That is exactly the question. Is that your conscious mind which decide to post on the net?

 

[jimmy]

The main conclusion that can be drawn from this is that there isn’t an absolute distinction between body and soul, in which the body is just a vessel or shell for the conscious, acting soul. All decision making is preceded by brain activity, even before you are conscious of the decision.

Consciousness plays several roles including learning. It makes it possible to learn from your actions. Even if the decision. Came before I was conscious of it, I still can learn the effects of that decision, and through consciousness affect the way I behave in the future.

I think it is a mistake to make the line between decision and consciousness too sharp. I choose to post on this site. I might not be aware that my mind is made up until shortly after the fact, but I still thought through whether I wanted to do it. My consciousness is present every step of the way.

You can only make the distinction absolute under certain conditions. You have to assume no prior consciousness or experience. Prior experience determines how I will approach future decisions. So maybe in an infant, who has never experienced anything, the distinction is clearer, but in an adult who has a lifetime of experience behind him, and consequently consciousness, it isn’t so clear.

Another implication of the experiment is subconsciousness. Most of what we do is done subconsciously. I touch my face, fidget, look around, etc. But I am only aware of it once I start thinking about it.

 

[empther]

Bahman post 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloysium View Post
… I suppose that if I weren’t conscious, I would not be posting on the Internet, but that would not necessarily be a bad thing…

That is exactly the question. Is that your conscious mind which decide to post on the net?

Yes because the body has absolutely no need for the internet and it can’t be a reflex. It is all the soul’s conscious mind.

Likewise only the soul’s conscious mind is interested in or has any awareness in the first place of the beauty in art, the song in music, the wisdom of Shakespeare’s plays, the desirability of a Harvard education etc etc etc.

 

[Bahman]

The main conclusion that can be drawn from this is that there isn’t an absolute distinction between body and soul, in which the body is just a vessel or shell for the conscious, acting soul. All decision making is preceded by brain activity, even before you are conscious of the decision.

Consciousness plays several roles including learning. It makes it possible to learn from your actions. Even if the decision. Came before I was conscious of it, I still can learn the effects of that decision, and through consciousness affect the way I behave in the future.

I think it is a mistake to make the line between decision and consciousness too sharp. I choose to post on this site. I might not be aware that my mind is made up until shortly after the fact, but I still thought through whether I wanted to do it. My consciousness is present every step of the way.

You can only make the distinction absolute under certain conditions. You have to assume no prior consciousness or experience. Prior experience determines how I will approach future decisions. So maybe in an infant, who has never experienced anything, the distinction is clearer, but in an adult who has a lifetime of experience behind him, and consequently consciousness, it isn’t so clear.

Another implication of the experiment is subconsciousness. Most of what we do is done subconsciously. I touch my face, fidget, look around, etc. But I am only aware of it once I start thinking about it.

How about thinking and desires? If we accept that decision is made in subconsciousness then we can accept that thinking and desires also emerge from subconsciousness itself and it is retrieved to consciousness when it is necessary. In fact, this is quite feasible assumption since a decision is made based on reasons and desires which later happen in subconsciousness and the other two also should happen there.

If it is so, then what is the point of consciousness?

Isn’t solely a luxury? I mean if accept that thinking, desires and decisions are made in subconscious mind then we have all the components for an autonomous system. The only problem is that nothing could be experienced without consciousness in another word everything goes into the dark.

 

[Bahman]

Bahman post 34

Yes because the body has absolutely no need for the internet and it can’t be a reflex. It is all the soul’s conscious mind.

Likewise only the soul’s conscious mind is interested in or has any awareness in the first place of the beauty in art, the song in music, the wisdom of Shakespeare’s plays, the desirability of a Harvard education etc etc etc.

That is not quite true since a person with a mental illness, who has a soul, could not enjoy art, wisdom, etc.

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by empther View Post
Bahman post 34

Yes because the body has absolutely no need for the internet and it can’t be a reflex. It is all the soul’s conscious mind.

Likewise only the soul’s conscious mind is interested in or has any awareness in the first place of the beauty in art, the song in music, the wisdom of Shakespeare’s plays, the desirability of a Harvard education etc etc etc.

That is not quite true since a person with a mental illness, who has a soul, could not enjoy art, wisdom, etc.

Typical, lame attempt to lower the value and truth of consciousness and in general try to win an argument. Disgusting! :whacky:
Someone who is mentally ill isn’t functioning normally, yet his potential to function normally is still there somewhere inside.

 

[Bahman]

Typical, lame attempt to lower the value and truth of consciousness and in general try to win an argument.
Someone who is mentally ill isn’t functioning normally, yet his potential to function normally is still there somewhere inside.

I agree that consciousness has a huge potential to experience different things but apparently what could be experienced is delivered by body, including enjoyment from art, thinking, any kind of desires, etc. The problem of consciousness is that it just allows experiencing and what could be experienced is conditioned to what body/subconsciousness can deliver.