What is the youngest a person can be and commit a mortal sin?

[ServantJohn]

I would think that if a child could commit mortal sin before the age of 7, that the Church would be obligated to allow them to go to Reconciliation and receive the Eucharist.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I would think that if a child could commit mortal sin before the age of 7, that the Church would be obligated to allow them to go to Reconciliation and receive the Eucharist.

True.

 

[Shin]

I would think that if a child could commit mortal sin before the age of 7, that the Church would be obligated to allow them to go to Reconciliation and receive the Eucharist.

Parents are responsible for letting a priest know of cases of precocious children, that might be eligible to receive these sacraments earlier. There are plenty of such cases.

 

[prstoessel]

The age of reason is usually said to be around 7 years old.

So that is prob. ordinarily the earliest. But such does not mean that ordinarily seven year old’s commit mortal sin.

On the flip side…

Some very holy children have had very keen awareness of the life they have in Baptism and make even very heroic acts by the grace of God at a very early age.

 

[Shin]

Some very holy children have had very keen awareness of the life they have in Baptism and make even very heroic acts by the grace of God at a very early age.

Ven. Anne de Guigne, her biography calls her ‘the Apostle of the Nursery’ in where she would help her brothers and sisters in holiness.

In fact I think that biography is a great example of the spiritual life of children and gives some idea of how to raise holy children. So important to know…

She was very small for her age. She was not holy from the start either… on the contrary… Very strong willed… did some bad things… described as jealous… bossy… yelled at her doctor… one day rubbed sand in the face of her new baby brother’s, in his eyes because she was jealous her mother had kissed him… but then she had a conversion…

At age 5, for her first Communion preparations, a Jesuit especially examined her. He did not keep to the order of the catechism but asked her questions out of order to make sure she knew the material.

Here are her answers. I’ll quote the book of her biography (on sale cheap from Tan Books I still believe.)

“What is your chief fault then?” he asked.

“Pride,” answered Anne promptly, “and disobedience too.”

“Humility here,” thought the priest, but he pretended to be very stern and told her that a little girl who wanted to receive Our Lord must obey at once and do whatever she was told. Then with a quick turn he asked: “When does Jesus obey?”

“At Mass,” answered the child without any hesitation.

“What words does He obey?”

“He obeys the priest when he says: ‘This is My Body, this is My Blood.’”

Then the examiner tried another subject: “What Sacraments have you received?”

“Baptism and Penance,” she replied.

“And which are you hoping to receive?”

“The Holy Eucharist and Confirmation.”

“No more?”

“Perhaps someday I shall receive the Sacrament of Matrimony,” she suggested.

“Holy orders too, eh?”

“Oh no, Father, how could I? That’s your Sacrament!” The little maid was not to be caught tripping.

Outside, Mother St. Raymond was getting more and more anxious but at length they both appeared smiling to her great relief. “I wish you and I were as well prepared to receive Our Lord as this little girl is,” was the examiner’s verdict.

All obstacles being now removed, Anne joined the first communicants’ retreat at the convent. It was given by one of the Jesuits who took for his text: “Obedience is the sanctity of children.” All those little one’s listened with good will no doubt, but as in Our Lord’s time, “the seeds fell, some on thorny ground, some by the wayside and some on the good ground.”

For Anne the Father’s words were a revelation. Being a saint, then, for a little girl, meant being obedient. Being obedient meant pleasing Jesus; and as she wanted to please Jesus, she must therefore be obedient. The logical little mind had put the matter with a clarity worthy of St. Thomas. All that remained was to carry it out; and with Anne to know was to act, so it was done."’

 

[Bookcat]

I would think that if a child could commit mortal sin before the age of 7, that the Church would be obligated to allow them to go to Reconciliation and receive the Eucharist.

Just cause there is an obligation for them to go to make their first confession at around age 7 does not mean that the Church thinks Children are committing mortal sins prior to age 7 (or even that they will commit any mortal sins in the near future). It is very good to confess venial sins (at least some)…and a childs first communion is very important to prepare for…with confession and absolution unless I would think they where just baptized. And of course they should get into the habit of going to confession to assist them in living a Christian life in joy etc

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Just cause there is an obligation for them to go to make their first confession at around age 7 does not mean that the Church thinks Children are committing mortal sins prior to age 7 (or even that they will commit any mortal sins in the near future). It is very good to confess venial sins (at least some)…and a childs first communion is very important to prepare for…with confession and absolution unless I would think they where just baptized. And of course they should get into the habit of going to confession to assist them in living a Christian life in joy etc

Exactly. anyone who has been around children for any length of time knows that they are not capable of understanding serious consequences. Have you ever heard a child yell to their parents, “I hate you! I wish you were dead!”? Clearly this is demonstrative of a HUGE lack of understanding regarding the permanence of death and natural consequences. No-one who cannot understand the idea of permanence can be culpable of mortal sin that leads to eternal damnation.

 

[prstoessel]

I believe that a child may be able to commit a venial sin, but there is NO WAY a 7 year old can understand the gravity of ANYTHING or fully consent to ANYTHING, let alone be able to make a choice to reject God for all eternity. God would never allow this.

I would not say that as an absolute, but it is certainly reasonable to think that is the case with most children that age. BUT, it has to start somewhere. What age is that? Eight? Ten? Eighteen? Thus, starting the children with the process of examining their conscience at the age of seven gives them good practice.

Anyone who is either new to confession or has been away from the sacrament for a long time will find that it takes several confessions (on a regular basis) to really get good at it. Examining one’s conscience is a practiced technique.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

The only thing here is that the Church hasn’t made any declaration regarding when this age of enlightenment for an individual is, or any process to ascertain culpability. It has simply stated that doing something with full knowledge of the act and consent renders them guilty.

That leaves much room for debate, theoretically you are right, a child can commit a mortal sin. However, I’m not interested in stargazing and constructing scenarios. I’m more interested in the practical nature of things, practically, a “child” does not commit mortal sins. Either something in the way they were brought up may brainwash them so that their culpability is reduced, and when culpability is reduced that is going to affect the severity of the sin, which immediately impacts on it being mortal or not.

I immediately think of feral children, children who were brought up by animals. Some children have been abandoned and reared by animals, that some of them cannot be taught to live like humans anymore, some could never be taught how to speak, because their brains were already engrained with something else during their childhood.

Apologies – I did not meant to suggest that the Church has dogmatically designated a cut-off age. However, absent that, we are guided by the traditional principle that the age of reason, so to speak, is around the age of 7. Obviously, this leaves quite a bit of wiggle room.

The point, however, is not the age – it’s whether a child is capable of the prerequisites for mortal sin. Though most young children probably can’t, I submit that it is possible.

Peace,
Dante

 

[DanteAlighieri]

This isn’t a teaching of the Church, this is the ranting of Gregory the Great who was obviously trying to make some sort of point and probably misunderstood the whole situation. IF this situation happened at ALL, it was probably more of a situation of God showing the father where this boy was headed if the father continued to do such a disservice to him. perhaps God even allowed the father to believe that the boy went to hell so as to ensure that he would take better care with his other children.

Either way, if this was actually a teaching of the Church and the Church wanted to claim infallibility on the matter, I’m afraid that this would be enough for me to determine once and for all that the Church was not in fact infallible and I would probably have to leave Catholicism entirely. I cannot ascribe to a religion that would teach that a 5 year old child is in hell. There is NO WAY that God would allow this and there is no logic or fairness or justice to it. You have to draw the line somewhere.

“Ranting”? Perhaps being a little more respectful of this Pope and Saint – and maybe even deferring to his wisdom – is in order?

Furthermore, do not fail to notice that the boy in the story died. There is little opportunity for the father to mend his ways with regard to his son’s spiritual guidance, so your assessment of the story’s purpose does not stand, I’m afraid.

And, again, I daresay that it is a bit bold to say “There is no way” that God would do or not do something simply because we find it personally distasteful. Unless you can demonstrate how it is **fundamentally impossible **for a five-year-old to commit mortal sin, you have to accept the possibility.

Peace,
Dante

 

[lynx]

So some of you people believe that there are 7 year olds in hell?

If God dictates morality then it is quite possibly so. When God dictates morality, who’s to say that sending a 7yo or younger to hell isn’t just? He’s making all the rules on what being just is. If for some reason, God decided to have the first born son of every person on this killed then that would be a just decision because God can only make just decisions.

“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.

 

[Bookcat]

If God dictates morality then it is quite possibly so. When God dictates morality, who’s to say that sending a 7yo or younger to hell isn’t just? He’s making all the rules on what being just is. If for some reason, God decided to have the first born son of every person on this killed then that would be a just decision because God can only make just decisions.

God does not just “dictate morality” …

But we will not get into your atheistic arguments here…or such is not the purpose of this thread.

But that is a nice cat there

Bookcat

 

[lynx]

God does not just “dictate morality” …

But we will not get into your atheistic arguments here…or such is not the purpose of this thread.

Trust me when I say that God dictate’s morality is not an atheistic argument. In Catholicism that is how God operates. God dictates morality, that is to say He authoritatively gives a set of principles by which morality is to be practiced.

But that is a nice cat there

Thanks, I think it’s a fine looking lynx myself :3 Where’s your cat bookcat?

 

[Mel_Stones]

That seems quite a harsh quote for St. Gregory the Great. I was curious where it came from so I did a search. I can only find it on three websites - one of which is quoting the other (this one), the second is here on CAF also by Shin. The other says it comes

From The Evergetinos, Book I, Vol. II (Etna, CA: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1991). There are now (October, 1998) three volumes available of this classic work. These are the only editions available in English.

source
Which can be purchased here.

Now I don’t know much but none of the sites seem to be Catholic and I can’t find the book anywhere else. I realize the internet and my search skills are lacking but I don’t think we should 1) condemn babies to hell or 2) bad mouth St. Gregory the Great for condemning babies to hell without more proof that he actually did.

Fact is, we know the requirements for sin to be mortal (full consent, full knowledge, and grave matter). We cannot judge these criteria - only God and the individual contemplating or committing the act can. There is no way to definitively say that anyone at any age is committing mortal sin. And . . . just because a person is capable of committing one mortal sin doesn’t mean he is capable of committing all mortal sins. There is just no way to say for sure what the youngest age a person can commit a mortal sin is.

Sorry if I’m repeating anything - I just glanced at most of the thread and felt the need to defend St. Gregory.

Disclaimer: I am by no means infallible. Anywhere what I say doesn’t line up with official Church teaching ignore my saying and substitute Church teaching.

 

[dailey]

All I know is Sr. R would tell us kids in 2nd grade “Don’t think because you are kids you can’t go to hell/purgatory!” :bigyikes:

I believed her then…and I believe her now…

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Quoting something from the Bible regarding God’s ways, and implying that it could be used to somehow make it seem possible that God will send seven-year-old’s to hell is laughable.

Instead of cherry-picking specific verses, why not quote more?

Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If anything those few lines indicate his mercy, if anything that could be made to understood that even though he dictates morality and has set “rules” he is not himself bound by it. It’s immoral for someone to randomly kill a 1000 people yes? It’s not immoral however for God to kill a 1000 people by an earthquake if he so wishes, as he’s already done something similar with the “flood”.

If it’s suggested he can send 7-year-old’s to hell, he can just as easily take them into heaven for committing supposed mortal sins.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think your problem is that you think “God” sends 7 year olds to hell. God sends NO ONE to hell. If a 7 year old goes to hell (Deus avertat!) he (or she) has freely and with full knowledge chosen that hell. For eternity. Unrepentant.

Believe it or not, even that 7 year old child doesn’t go to hell whimpering, “I’m sorry, I won’t do it again.” He (or she) goes willingly and does not WISH to leave, not even when he (or she) is in torment.

I have a high respect for people’s intelligence (really I do) but I have an equally high, well, we’ll call it ‘understanding’ that people’s PRIDE can be absolutely and frighteningly limitless. And that is what guides a person into defying God and choosing hell. . .pride.

If you don’t think a 7 year old can have pride, mortally sinful pride, you don’t know 7 year olds. They are just as capable of such as 17 year olds and 77 year olds!

 

[wakawaka]

I believe if the child does not grasp the concept of mortal and venial sin and how it prevents us from being in communion with Christ, as well as how sins can be forgiven and Confession works theologically, they are not ready for the Eucharist. It probably isn’t very common for a child to commit a mortal sin, but it is posible for anyone to commit a mortal sin and that’s why parents need to enforce frequent Confessions and teach their child about the Sacraments so they have a broad understanding of them and what they offer.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

I think your problem is that you think “God” sends 7 year olds to hell. God sends NO ONE to hell. If a 7 year old goes to hell (Deus avertat!) he (or she) has freely and with full knowledge chosen that hell. For eternity. Unrepentant.

Believe it or not, even that 7 year old child doesn’t go to hell whimpering, “I’m sorry, I won’t do it again.” He (or she) goes willingly and does not WISH to leave, not even when he (or she) is in torment.

I have a high respect for people’s intelligence (really I do) but I have an equally high, well, we’ll call it ‘understanding’ that people’s PRIDE can be absolutely and frighteningly limitless. And that is what guides a person into defying God and choosing hell. . .pride.

If you don’t think a 7 year old can have pride, mortally sinful pride, you don’t know 7 year olds. They are just as capable of such as 17 year olds and 77 year olds!

Yes, your post makes perfect sense since there are sado-masochistic 7-year-olds everywhere these days

Heck, if people didn’t want to leave hell despite the eternal pain beyond belief that supposedly exists there, then why would anyone be afraid of going there? Hey, I might as well go there if I didn’t want to leave either.

Is this enlightened learning something you were privvy to over hours of prayer, or do you like conjecturing wild theories usually?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, your post makes perfect sense since there are sado-masochistic 7-year-olds everywhere these days

Heck, if people didn’t want to leave hell despite the eternal pain beyond belief that supposedly exists there, then why would anyone be afraid of going there? Hey, I might as well go there if I didn’t want to leave either.

Is this enlightened learning something you were privvy to over hours of prayer, or do you like conjecturing wild theories usually?

Are you asking me seriously or are you just making snide remarks?