What is the youngest a person can be and commit a mortal sin?

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The fact of a greater possibility of error due to the underdelopment of the teenager

DOES NOT make it not possible for them to make complex moral decision etc.

It may make them more prone to short falls in judgment at times…but does not put them in the boat as has been asserted above in regards to complex moral decisions.

I potential greater tendency to misjudge does not = an impossibility to judge.
 
Bookcat said:
NO it does not.

There may be factors in a particular persons case …
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“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” -CCC

Read it how you like BC, but they are referring here to the average teenage masturbating boy. :rolleyes:
 
Thoughtfulone said:
As I said, the MRI tells the tale. Of course a person may make a moral choice before the age of 20, and they might even SEEM to understand it. The point is, to do this consistently and with a definitive understanding of what one is doing, with full comprehension of the consequences is beyond the capability of someone who does not have the physical ability to do so.
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Sorry your conclusion here does not follow reality.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” -CCC

Read it how you like BC, but they are referring here to the average teenage masturbating boy. :rolleyes:
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Such does not support your statement above but rather what I stated still stands.

The confessor must judge each case…there is not blanket “teenagers do not commit mortal sins here”…
 
Bookcat said:
The fact of a greater possibility of error due to the underdelopment of the teenager

DOES NOT make it not possible for them to make complex moral decision etc.

It may make them more prone to short falls in judgment at times…but does not put them in the boat as has been asserted above in regards to complex moral decisions.

I potential greater tendency to misjudge does not = an impossibility to judge.
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At that age BC, it is essentially a physical disability that makes it much, much harder for them to consistently make moral judgments and follow through with them. Sorry, but I don’t see anyone at such a disadvantage going to their eternal damnation. It is a mitigating factor that makes true mortal sin impossible. Complete consent cannot be given if one lacks the physical ability to understanding the far-reaching consequences of eternal hell.

You may prefer to imagine all the little kiddos in hell, but I believe in a merciful God who understands that a person must be both physically and emotionally mature in order to be able to decide where they want to spend eternity.
 
Bookcat said:
Such does not support your statement above but rather what I stated still stands.

The confessor must judge each case…there is not blanket “teenagers do not commit mortal sins here”…
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IMMATURITY Bookcat, you know, like when your BRAIN hasn’t grown into your skull yet? Sheesh…:rolleyes:
 
Thoughtfulone said:
At that age BC, it is essentially a physical disability that makes it much, much harder for them to consistently make moral judgments and follow through with them. Sorry, but I don’t see anyone at such a disadvantage going to their eternal damnation. It is a mitigating factor that makes true mortal sin impossible. Complete consent cannot be given if one lacks the physical ability to understanding the far-reaching consequences of eternal hell.

You may prefer to imagine all the little kiddos in hell, but I believe in a merciful God who understands that a person must be both physically and emotionally mature in order to be able to decide where they want to spend eternity.
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God will judge each person accordingly…he knows them very well. Be they 14 or 18 or 55…but a person does not wait til they are 22 to be able to commit a mortal sin…or even get married!

Your conclusions just do not follow.

All those poor people who got married at 18…we should let them know they were not capable of it…and all those who went off to join the military…and all those who committed themselves to so many high things…and all those young empirical scientists who were already at it at a young age…

They should all know it was impossible for them…
 
Thoughtfulone said:
IMMATURITY Bookcat, you know, like when your BRAIN hasn’t grown into your skull yet? Sheesh…:rolleyes:
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Immaturity does not = impossibility. But I have already discussed this above.

I am more mature now in a way…than I was at 30. But I know very well that I made plenty of complex moral decisions well before I was 20 🙂

We must be careful not reduce man to mere biology…
 
Bookcat said:
Nope it is simply true

even if there was silence

(as there will be soon…I have to go to bed :))
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I just have to love the psychological ‘theorists’.

Exactly how much practical experience do they have with children on a 24/7 basis I wonder, yes I do.

Having raised three children now in their mid to late 20s as well as having several nieces and nephews in the 30s and 40s, and now young grandchildren, as well as undergraduate work in psychology myself, I can assure our ‘theorists’ that they misinterpret the work of developmental psychologists in ASSUMING that these theories somehow make it IMPOSSIBLE for a person younger than the ‘mid 20s’ to comprehend ‘complex thoughts about a deity and to understand the ramifications of mortal sin.’

Sure we’d all love to have a ‘scientific’ excuse for not trying to do ‘right’. “I’m too young, my brain isn’t physically DEVELOPED enough and I’m not at the appropriate developmental STAGE to comprehend according to my psychologist!”

Whatever DID we do before ‘science’ told us we were, or were not, ‘capable’ of doing or learning???
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I just have to love the psychological ‘theorists’.

Exactly how much practical experience do they have with children on a 24/7 basis I wonder, yes I do.

Having raised three children now in their mid to late 20s as well as having several nieces and nephews in the 30s and 40s, and now young grandchildren, as well as undergraduate work in psychology myself, I can assure our ‘theorists’ that they misinterpret the work of developmental psychologists in ASSUMING that these theories somehow make it IMPOSSIBLE for a person younger than the ‘mid 20s’ to comprehend ‘complex thoughts about a deity and to understand the ramifications of mortal sin.’

Sure we’d all love to have a ‘scientific’ excuse for not trying to do ‘right’. “I’m too young, my brain isn’t physically DEVELOPED enough and I’m not at the appropriate developmental STAGE to comprehend according to my psychologist!”

Whatever DID we do before ‘science’ told us we were, or were not, ‘capable’ of doing or learning???
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Montessori had more experience with children than an average parent could glean in a lifetime. So did Piaget and Kohlberg. That’s what happens when all you do is observe them with other scientists 16 hours a day for most of your life.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
Montessori had more experience with children than an average parent could glean in a lifetime. So did Piaget and Kohlberg. That’s what happens when all you do is observe them with other scientists 16 hours a day for most of your life.
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And none of them pronounced that a person under the age of the mid 20s was incapable of committing a mortal sin.

Did you know that some of the most important scientists who ever lived were Catholic? Even Catholic priests? “Science” and The Church are not in opposition to each other.
 
O.K., since most people here don’t put much stock in “science” and"biology", I have a something for you to ponder:

If you had a 13 year old daughter who was very mature, highly intelligent, discerning, trustworthy, etc. and she came up to you and told you that she wanted to marry a certain boy in one year (a 17 year old, known by you, with all of those same qualities), and she wanted your permission to do so, what would you say? She and this boy are in Confirmation class together and play together on the chess team and have a very chaste relationship, but know each other well. She wants to spend the rest of her life with him. Do you allow it?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
And none of them pronounced that a person under the age of the mid 20s was incapable of committing a mortal sin.

Did you know that some of the most important scientists who ever lived were Catholic? Even Catholic priests? “Science” and The Church are not in opposition to each other.
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Yes! They don’t HAVE to specifically say it Tantum, the evidence is right there. If you were to ASK them, they would no doubt say, given everything they have to say on brain and psychological development, that it would be impossible to commit a mortal sin - to truly understand what is involved in throwing away one’s soul for eternity.

I KNOW that science and the Church are not in conflict. The Church has no position on the matter, just that one can follow basic rules of what parents tell them are “right” and “wrong” at the age of 7, more or less. Even this is certainly not a definitive or infallible position, just a guideline for first confessions and the Eucharist.

Please feel free to answer my above hypothetical.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
O.K., since most people here don’t put much stock in “science” and"biology", I have a something for you to ponder:

If you had a 13 year old daughter who was very mature, highly intelligent, discerning, trustworthy, etc. and she came up to you and told you that she wanted to marry a certain boy in one year (a 17 year old, known by you, with all of those same qualities), and she wanted your permission to do so, what would you say? She and this boy are in Confirmation class together and play together on the chess team and have a very chaste relationship, but know each other well. She wants to spend the rest of her life with him. Do you allow it?
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The Church had actually placed an impediment that would prevent such from being ever valid.

This does not mean though that such could not happen…that it would not be possible…

But yes such would usually be ill advised…

But in your proposal…such would be impossible even at age 18…
 
Thoughtfulone said:
O.K., since most people here don’t put much stock in “science” and"biology", I have a something for you to ponder:

If you had a 13 year old daughter who was very mature, highly intelligent, discerning, trustworthy, etc. and she came up to you and told you that she wanted to marry a certain boy in one year (a 17 year old, known by you, with all of those same qualities), and she wanted your permission to do so, what would you say? She and this boy are in Confirmation class together and play together on the chess team and have a very chaste relationship, but know each other well. She wants to spend the rest of her life with him. Do you allow it?
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I would say no…but her not being old enough to marry would not preclude her not being old enough to

a. shop lift
b. lie to be with this boy
c. miss Mass without a serious reason
d. lie about her class nemisis, spreading rumors about her

Have you ever taught school?
I have a very limited experience…but which teachers are the happiest and jolliest? Kindergarten to third grade.

I taught high school girls - sometimes not the most mature.

I had to actually step in to stop a physical fight between 2 girls over a boy. No way could the look of hate and rage they had be a symptom of a sinless disposition.

See, I think to say a 5 year old is in hell is not probable.

For a 10 year old to commit a mortal sin, probable…
 
Bookcat said:
The Church had actually placed an impediment that would prevent such from being ever valid.

This does not mean though that such could not happen…that it would not be possible…

But yes such would usually be ill advised…

But in your proposal…such would be impossible even at age 18…
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What is the impediment BC? And why would it be ill-advised?
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I would say no…but her not being old enough to marry would not preclude her not being old enough to

a. shop lift
b. lie to be with this boy
c. miss Mass without a serious reason
d. lie about her class nemisis, spreading rumors about her

Have you ever taught school?
I have a very limited experience…but which teachers are the happiest and jolliest? Kindergarten to third grade.

I taught high school girls - sometimes not the most mature.

I had to actually step in to stop a physical fight between 2 girls over a boy. No way could the look of hate and rage they had be a symptom of a sinless disposition.

See, I think to say a 5 year old is in hell is not probable.

For a 10 year old to commit a mortal sin, probable…
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You are right, a child is capable of doing all of those things, and teenagers are capable of much, much worse. My point is, that in a teenager or a child, NONE of these sins could possibly rise to the level of mortality because they are unable to UNDERSTAND the meaning of rejecting God for eternity. They cannot give their full consent to such a permanent act. Any of these sins, in a person who cannot fully understand the consequences, would be venial.
 
But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
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My 9 year old was a baby for 9/11. When he was about 8, we spoke to him about it. He lowered his head and said, “I can’t believe people can be so bad.”

So at 8 he was able to understand that mass murder is evil.

I guess at the end, individually we cannot look at anyone’s soul and say, “Look mortal sin”

But we can teach our children right from wrong, the 10 commandments. And they can understand

Many children know it is wrong to steal, so they don’t steal and tattle when someone steals.

My DD is 6. She knows when something is wrong.
 
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