What is theosis?

[rciadan]

I am confused? What should be both/and, versus either/or?

Because I have had so many tell me that the concept is “orthodox” and essentially, too difficult for a “Latin” to understand, and that there is no equal concept in the Latin Rite.

 

[TrueLight]

Theosis, referred to as divinization in the CCC, is a teaching of the Catholic Church. It is found specifically in the CCC, 460. I

Great citation.

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

Do you think it can be stressed more through catechesis?

It’s not something I usually hear Catholics discussing unless I’m talking to Carmelites, lay Carmelites or people who spend a lot of time studying mystics.

How common are discussions on theosis among the Orthodox / Eastern Catholics, I wonder.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Great citation.

Do you think it can be stressed more through catechesis?

It’s not something I usually hear Catholics discussing unless I’m talking to Carmelites, lay Carmelites or people who spend a lot of time studying mystics.

How common are discussions on theosis among the Orthodox / Eastern Catholics, I wonder.

Thanks.

I’m sure it could be stressed more in catechesis; from what I hear, there are a lot of things that should (and could) be stressed more.

Although it seems to me that most Latin Catholics (and Western Christians in general) are more concerned with getting to Heaven; any talk of “union with God” has not been used in such a long time that many would scoff and say that is “pagan”. Of course, catechesis would help. And thus, we come full circle…

And on your other question: Considering that theosis is fundamental for the Eastern outlook on salvation, I am sure it goes on frequently. Although my guess is that it would such talks would go on more in Orthodoxy, although mileage may vary; laity the world over, of all stripes, tend to not talk about a lot of things.

 

[Hesychios]

I agree. The mystics have always sought union with God, in other words, the perfect alignment of our will with that of God’s. Ex: St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Faustina, St Catherine of Siena.
So I definitely see a theosis overlap here with both Eastern and Western spirituality.

I don’t know if this is significant, but the Carmelites did originate in the east, when western pilgrims were settling down alongside eastern hermits in the vicinity of Mount Carmel.

 

[TrueLight]

I don’t know if this is significant, but the Carmelites did originate in the east, when western pilgrims were settling down alongside eastern hermits in the vicinity of Mount Carmel.

Hmm maybe so.

 

[rciadan]

Thanks.

I’m sure it could be stressed more in catechesis; from what I hear, there are a lot of things that should (and could) be stressed more.

Although it seems to me that most Latin Catholics (and Western Christians in general) are more concerned with getting to Heaven; any talk of “union with God” has not been used in such a long time that many would scoff and say that is “pagan”. Of course, catechesis would help. And thus, we come full circle…

Many Latins, and I might venture, Easterns, Orthodox or otherwise, give the mystics little if any thought at all!
A great many Latins are too busy planning their exit right after Communion so they can beat the traffic to their local breakfast place, or complaining because the priest talked too long or actually struck a chord within that made them uncomfortable.
Many of the great and intense discussions I have had on this forum would have been impossible with but a few of my friends, even many those I find to be devout…

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Because I have had so many tell me that the concept is “orthodox” and essentially, too difficult for a “Latin” to understand, and that there is no equal concept in the Latin Rite.

Ah! That!

Well, they are correct- it is orthodox, in that it is correct teaching, and not heretical.

However, it is certainly not difficult for a “Latin” to understand, no more than it is difficult for an Eastern or Oriental (or even this Lutheran here ) to comprehend. One just has to spend some time coming to know what theosis actually means; once that happens, one finds it all over the place.

And of course there is an equal concept in Latin theology! The CCC refers to it as divinization. Perhaps a better way to think of it is this:

Salvation is a journey, yes? One is first justified, and then sanctified, correct?

Justification + Sanctification = Salvation
Justification + Sanctification = Theosis

They are the same thing, just different ways of describing it. Admittedly, talk of theosis/divinizaiton seems to have fallen a bit left-field (though not to the way-side) in Western theological talk. Nevertheless, it is there. Especially within the monastics and mystics.

 

[TrueLight]

Many of the great and intense discussions I have had on this forum would have been impossible with but a few of my friends, even many those I find to be devout…

I feel you.

I would love to have these types of deep discussions over coffee.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Many Latins, and I might venture, Easterns, Orthodox or otherwise, give the mystics little if any thought at all!
A great many Latins are too busy planning their exit right after Communion so they can beat the traffic to their local breakfast place, or complaining because the priest talked too long or actually struck a chord within that made them uncomfortable.
Many of the great and intense discussions I have had on this forum would have been impossible with but a few of my friends, even many those I find to be devout…

Yes, well, lack of piety and even mere courtesy is certainly not a Latin-centric problem, I can assure you.

One of the great things about the internet is being able to to look over what you said before you post, going back and editing, and not being able to see another’s face and hear their voice.
Simultaneously, these are the internet’s pitfalls.
Thus, many conversations are possible here that are not in real life.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I feel you.

I would love to have these types of deep discussions over coffee.

I’m more of a tea man myself. But, if you’re paying…

 

[TrueLight]

I’m more of a tea man myself. But, if you’re paying…

I most definitely am not… paying that is.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I most definitely am not… paying that is.

 

[tarboy]

I think in general Catholics steer clear of theosis because it takes a fairly mature faith to understand in proper context.

better to avoid completely than risk even appearing to sin as in ccc 398?
CCC 398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I think in general Catholics steer clear of theosis because it takes a fairly mature faith to understand in proper context.

 

[Celticnovice]

I don’t know if this is significant, but the Carmelites did originate in the east, when western pilgrims were settling down alongside eastern hermits in the vicinity of Mount Carmel.

It ABSOLUTELY is significant…I pointed this out on the Traditional Catholic forum a few months back, the similarities between Carmelites and Byzantines and the response I got was very close to what you have posted.

 

[Celticnovice]

Great citation.

Do you think it can be stressed more through catechesis?

It’s not something I usually hear Catholics discussing unless I’m talking to Carmelites, lay Carmelites or people who spend a lot of time studying mystics.

How common are discussions on theosis among the Orthodox / Eastern Catholics, I wonder.

Its funny you mention this because last summer I was listening to a show on Catholic radio, and I heard Dr. Michael Barber (Pr. of Theology) say divinization is central to being Catholic…(Paraphrase)

Needless to say I was pretty encouraged by that.

 

[FrKimel]

I’d like to recommend a book for those Catholics who are still skeptical about theosis or deification: The Glories of Divine Graceby Fr Matthias Scheeben (a more recent translation is available from Amazon.com and other booksellers).

 

[TrueLight]

I’d like to recommend a book for those Catholics who are still skeptical about theosis or deification: The Glories of Divine Grace by Fr Matthias Scheeben (a more recent translation is available from Amazon.com and other booksellers).

I don’t know if it is a matter of being skeptical. I think some Catholics are a little bit intimidated by it.

 

[TrueLight]

It ABSOLUTELY is significant…I pointed this out on the Traditional Catholic forum a few months back, the similarities between Carmelites and Byzantines and the response I got was very close to what you have posted.

I’m sorry. What was the response?

 

[twf]

Deification is also a major theme in the Roman liturgy - both in the mass and in the liturgy of the hours…at every single mass the priest prays By this mingling of water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity…repeatedly in the divine office we say phrases like “for in Christ we are already seated at your right hand in glory”. Deification is certainly emphasized in Dominican circles. It was St. Thomas Aquinas, after all, who said “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”.

In fact, I once attended mass at a local parish entrusted to the care of the Dominicans. During the homily the priest boldly addressed the entire congregation and said “You are gods!”. He of course elaborated upon that theme within a Dominican theological context…

In North America we are used to Latin Catholics being very “reserved” in the expression of their faith…but if you journey to Latin America or parts of Europe or even Asia you will see zealous public expressions of devotion to Our Lady and the saints…the masses will walk on their knees in honor of images of the Virgin…lay flowers and gifts at the feet of the saints…walk through the streets singing hymns of praise to the Virgin and the saints… how can anyone see these practices as even remotely Christian unless one understands, lives, and embraces deification?