What is there to say about slavery and the Bible? Especially the Old Testament? (MERGED)

[Mike_from_NJ]

I know that some people get terribly hung up in the stories and events of the Bible. This is especially so in the stories in the Hebrew Scriptures.

This has never been my problem. I see the History of a people. I see a history of a people becoming a nation. The laws were harsh, yes. Life was hard. This is a history of people that it is not unlike the history of all peoples throughout the world.

You must not have heard the multitudes of people on CAF admonishing others by saying that the Bible is not a history book. It’s supposed to give insight to our alleged creator, To those who see slavery as a terrible wrong this insight shows a God calling for man’s inhumanity against man.

It is not a fairy story white washed and politically correct. It is real. It is honest. It is a story of iron, strength and courage.

The whitewashing comes afterward – centuries and millennia later. It’s not a story of strength of strength and courage, but one of cowardice and cruelty.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Slavery was the bedrock of civil society at the time.

It was not the goal of the Holy Spirit to overturn the civil society, but to transcend it by preparing for the coming of our LORD, and everlasting life. Societies come and go.

It would have done no good to eliminate slavery and then have a new country take over and reinstate it.

ICXC NIKA.

Leviticus 20:23 “You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.” Because other cultures do something doesn’t make it right for the Hebrews to do the same, by God’s own words.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

People were sacrificing children, cannibals, incestuous. Homosexual gang rape and child prostitution are all common in the Old Testament.

The laws in the Old Testament, including those about slavery, were God’s first controls on what had become a completely out of control situation.

The laws were not meant to be permanent nor the complete solution but only the first step in a plan which would culminate in God himself becoming man to teach us how to love.

That’s all.

-Tim-

Remember two things:

1. These instructions were given by God while the Hebrews were wandering the desert after leaving Egypt. They had no slaves at the time. The theory that this not-as-awful slavery would be a gradual change for the Hebrews doesn’t hold water in the slightest.
2. God commanded the Hebrews to perform several acts that only they performed (e.g. honoring the Sabbath) or that only some neighboring cultures practiced (e,g, circumcision). These commands were made without regard to the culture at the time.

 

[SirEwenii]

Intentionally killing someone is wrong, but injuring someone so severely that they eventually die as a result is right? We call the latter manslaughter and we have laws against that. The penalties for manslaughter aren’t as butsevere as those for murder, but they are severe.

The idea that one can manslaughter another without penalty is wrong. The idea that one can beat another person that they own is wrong on multiple levels.

Sir, you may be interested in reading numbers 35, from vhere to erse 9 onwards. Anyone who commits manslaughter was punished. It’s no different for slaves. Perhaps I was not clear before but in exodus it is referring to a man who beat his slave, he dies a few days later but it’s not clear the cause of his death. These were instructions for judges it may be the beating was the cause of death but the judge was not to condemn the slave owner based on the fact that the slave was beaten a few days before. Remember there is no autopsy determine cause of death. The assumption is of the owners innocence as it is how money he loses when the slave dies. This is the kind of reasoning in all these chapters, and the meaning is not hard to see if you’ve been reading through the chapters in order.

 

[HelenRose]

You must not have heard the multitudes of people on CAF admonishing others by saying that the Bible is not a history book. It’s supposed to give insight to our alleged creator, To those who see slavery as a terrible wrong this insight shows a God calling for man’s inhumanity against man.

The whitewashing comes afterward – centuries and millennia later. It’s not a story of strength of strength and courage, but one of cowardice and cruelty.

I can’t see where David’s antics were white-washed.
Abraham and Sarah don’t shine particularly.
The sorted behavior of Kings after David - no valor there

These are not stories of fictitious people, washed and cleaned up for children stories.
You are right. These were brutal times with brutal people surviving in a brutal time. Not a whole lot different than our times.

The Bible speaks the truth about human nature and our need for God’s love. It is a magnificent history of a people who have survived. If you want to hate the Bible and try to convince me to renounce it’s strength and power, you are going to have do better.

I am more concerned about the slavery existing in the United States now. The inhuman enslavement of the unborn child.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I can’t see where David’s antics were white-washed.
Abraham and Sarah don’t shine particularly.
The sorted behavior of Kings after David - no valor there

These are not stories of fictitious people, washed and cleaned up for children stories.
You are right. These were brutal times with brutal people surviving in a brutal time. Not a whole lot different than our times.

There is rarely whitewashing of the human characters in the Bible (Lot is a notable exception), and the reason for that is that having flawed humans in the Bible doesn’t undercut the message being sent. It’s God’s actions that are often whitewashed. When you hear or read things like “Biblical slavery isn’t the same as chattel slavery” or “We can’t understand what God thinks” when he does something abominable then whitewashing is taking place.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Sir, you may be interested in reading numbers 35, from vhere to erse 9 onwards. Anyone who commits manslaughter was punished. It’s no different for slaves. Perhaps I was not clear before but in exodus it is referring to a man who beat his slave, he dies a few days later but it’s not clear the cause of his death. These were instructions for judges it may be the beating was the cause of death but the judge was not to condemn the slave owner based on the fact that the slave was beaten a few days before. Remember there is no autopsy determine cause of death. The assumption is of the owners innocence as it is how money he loses when the slave dies.

Numbers 35:9 and on definitely give punishment for manslaughtering another human. Exodus 21:20-21 says that an owner who manslaughters a slave is not to be punished because the slave is property.

This is the kind of reasoning in all these chapters, and the meaning is not hard to see if you’ve been reading through the chapters in order.

It surely can’t be reasoning if you have to ignore what the passages actually say.

 

[HelenRose]

There is rarely whitewashing of the human characters in the Bible (Lot is a notable exception), and the reason for that is that having flawed humans in the Bible doesn’t undercut the message being sent. It’s God’s actions that are often whitewashed. When you hear or read things like “Biblical slavery isn’t the same as chattel slavery” or “We can’t understand what God thinks” when he does something abominable then whitewashing is taking place.

But it is still recorded isn’t it?
You may not like the rationale given, but you can’t say that it was white washed out.

I think many people want God to be a warm soft fuzzy. I try to remember that He is the creator of the forces of evolution. Nothing warm and fuzzy about survival of the fittest. He is the creator of the forces that cause the exploding stars. Complaining about God, is a bit like spitting at a hurricane.

Yes, He does love us. Yes, He sent His beloved Son because of His love. But… He is still God and I for one am not going to second guess Him.

If you are so concerned about slavery, are you defending the unborn? This is where slavery is here and now. Are you working with organizations fighting the sex trade which is a profitable business selling countless numbers of women and children and young mean around the world.

It is great to sit in front of a computer and complain about slavery in the distant past. But, it is another thing all together to complain and fight against slavery now.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

But it is still recorded isn’t it?
You may not like the rationale given, but you can’t say that it was white washed out.

Yes it was written, because slavery wasn’t seen as wrong at the time. As I said earlier it’s centuries and millennia later that the whitewashing is in full effect trying to rescue the God character from those who question his endorsement of slavery. God is not only said to be the creator but is also said to be love. Not just loving, but love itself. It’s hard to square that concept with a deity who can just as easily say not to own slaves as he said not to work on the Sabbath.

And I know you’ve tried several times to change the subject to abortion. It’s a common practice when God is shown as doing evil things to try and try and change the subject to divert attention away from such things. But no level of misdirection will allow us to say that what God is written to have said and done in the Bible is entierly good and without fault – especially when it comes to slavery.

 

[HelenRose]

Yes it was written, because slavery wasn’t seen as wrong at the time. As I said earlier it’s centuries and millennia later that the whitewashing is in full effect trying to rescue the God character from those who question his endorsement of slavery. God is not only said to be the creator but is also said to be love. Not just loving, but love itself. It’s hard to square that concept with a deity who can just as easily say not to own slaves as he said not to work on the Sabbath.

And I know you’ve tried several times to change the subject to abortion. It’s a common practice when God is shown as doing evil things to try and try and change the subject to divert attention away from such things. But no level of misdirection will allow us to say that what God is written to have said and done in the Bible is entierly good and without fault – especially when it comes to slavery.

You are so right. I am trying to show you that your dismay at slavery in the Hebrew Scriptures is not about slavery but about your rejection of the Bible. Slavery is your hook. The slavery of abortion is mine.

I can’t see that my arguing with you any more is going the help the situation at all. So, I thank you for giving me something to think about and I will say goodbye.

 

[SirEwenii]

Numbers 35:9 and on defiof nitely give punishment for manslaughtering another human. Exodus 21:20-21 says that an owner who manslaughters a slave is not to be punished because the slave is property.

It surely can’t be reasoning if you have to ignore what the passages actually say.

I repeat these are guidelines for judging the people of Israel. The owner is not punished for manslaughter because it is not supposed that the owner did in fact cause the death of his own property. This is a guideline for how Moses should judge cases. There were no autopsies, this was not today. No one is suggesting this a basis to judge the law today. If a slave died a couple of days after a beating it was not to be supposed that the owner was guilty of murder (e fact that there was a beating was not enough to convict him)

Are you familiar with the sort of world this was?

Sir, on what basis so you call this immoral or wrong anyway? Isn’t that just arbitrary?

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I repeat these are guidelines for judging the people of Israel. The owner is not punished for manslaughter because it is not supposed that the owner did in fact cause the death of his own property. This is a guideline for how Moses should judge cases. There were no autopsies, this was not today. No one is suggesting this a basis to judge the law today.

And I at no point suggested it either so there’s no logical reason why you would bring it up. This is all about God. God is love. God is unchanging. God says it’s perfectly fine to own another person. God is unchanging. God says it’s ok to beat another person. God is unchanging. The limit to which God allows a slave to be is at a level so brutal that it cripples a man and he dies the next day of those injuries. God is unchanging. God is love?

If a slave died a couple of days after a beating it was not to be supposed that the owner was guilty of murder (e fact that there was a beating was not enough to convict him)

Right, because God as described in the Bible sees slaves as property. He calls them such and allows them to be brutalized and bashed in with NO penalty whatsoever.

Are you familiar with the sort of world this was?

As I noted God specifically told his people not to engage in the customs of the surrounding areas. So we can stop using that rationalization of how many cultures had slaves. As I also noted these rules were given to the Hebrews when they were wandering in the desert and had no slaves. There was no demand to purchase them from other countries as God lays out for them.

Sir, on what basis so you call this immoral or wrong anyway? Isn’t that just arbitrary?

Here we go. Whenever the question of morality in Catholicism comes up, and the arguments supporting it fail (as they have here spectacularly) the subject shifts to how a non-believer can have a basis for morality.

At some point I’m going to change my signature to link to the basis of my morality that I’ve given in several other posts. But not today, as I won’t accept that dodge. I want you to defend the morality of slavery.

Is it moral to own another person?
Why was it necessary for God to tell HIS people how to own slaves while at the same time telling them not to follow the customs of those in neighboring lands?

 

[SirEwenii]

God never changes but the definition of slave does (in modern days people badly in debt often go to jail, but these people often became bond slaves for six years, just one of the reasons one night become a slave)

God never changes but economic systems do (many of these bondslaves entered into it voluntarily, otherwise they were likely to starve to death! A common enough thing at the time)

God never changes but the way of implementing a just judicial system does.judge These were laws for punishment not universal moral truths. It’s wrong to cheat on your spouse but there is no judicial law against it in our society. These were for keeping law and order. They are not universal moral laws but laws for judges.

You sir can continue to place God on the bench and sit on the judgement seat if you like. But at the end of the day it makes as much sense as my pet dog making judgement calls about the rules of the house. At the end of the day we have a thrice holy God whom you hate, just as all men do naturally apart from a supernatural work of grace, and it is He who sits on the judgement throne and it is you and I, yes I perhaps even more than you, who stand at the bench to be judged. I’m not using fear tactics, I’m not trying to scare you because I know this doesn’t. I have a world view, just as we all do. This is God’s world.

 

[Tomdstone]

God never changes but the definition of slave does (in modern days people badly in debt often go to jail, but these people often became bond slaves for six years, just one of the reasons one night become a slave)

God never changes but economic systems do (many of these bondslaves entered into it voluntarily, otherwise they were likely to starve to death! A common enough thing at the time)

God never changes but the way of implementing a just judicial system does.judge These were laws for punishment not universal moral truths. It’s wrong to cheat on your spouse but there is no judicial law against it in our society. These were for keeping law and order. They are not universal moral laws but laws for judges.

You sir can continue to place God on the bench and sit on the judgement seat if you like. But at the end of the day it makes as much sense as my pet dog making judgement calls about the rules of the house. At the end of the day we have a thrice holy God whom you hate, just as all men do naturally apart from a supernatural work of grace, and it is He who sits on the judgement throne and it is you and I, yes I perhaps even more than you, who stand at the bench to be judged. I’m not using fear tactics, I’m not trying to scare you because I know this doesn’t. I have a world view, just as we all do. This is God’s world.

Is it morally acceptable to enslave men, women and children?

 

[SirEwenii]

In

Is it morally acceptable to enslave men, women and children?

I think bondslavery is morally acceptable.

Not slavery in the 18th century sense. There is an enormous difference.

I am even in a kind of bond slavery. I have to pay an enormous student debt. It’s forcibly removed from my income

 

[Elena321]

Jimmy Akin has a lot to say about the “dark passages” in the Bible.

Here is his opinion on Jesus v Slavery, not sure if it is what you were looking for:

jimmyakin.com/2004/09/jesus_vs_slaver.html

Her is another article on wh God allows suffering:
jimmyakin.com/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

Here is an article by Akin in the NCR on why God allows sin and suffering:
ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/why-does-god-allow-sin-and-suffering

Also the Church always condemned so-called “chattel slavery” where human beings were treated as property, and Pope St Pius V forbade slvaery in the new world (whch the Spanish and Portuguese authorities sadly ignored). The type of slavery practiced by the Israelites was more a form of indentured labour in which the servant had some kinds of rights against his owner (not saying that’s a good thing, but labour relations were not in their infancy) and religious festivities often required the freeing of slaves.

I will post new articles as soon as I find them.

Also clerics like St Peter Claver and Charles Martial Lavigerie (founder of the White Fathers missionary Priest order) were strong campaigners for the abolition of slavery.

During the US civil war, the senior Catholic Bishop, John Hughes, supported the union and Lincoln even sent him as an envoy to Italy and France to counter pro-southern sentiment there.

It seems odd to me beacuse then doesn’t that mean that God allowed a “caste system” of sorts(like in India)?
What i mean by that is that obviously the people born into wealth would have been the slave owners and the ones born into poverty would have had to be the ones to sell themselves into slavery/servitude.It seems awfully unjust.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

God never changes but the definition of slave does (in modern days people badly in debt often go to jail, but these people often became bond slaves for six years, just one of the reasons one night become a slave)

Let’s be careful here. Only a fraction of the slaves described in the Bible are to be set free after 6 years. It does not include:

• Non-Hebrews
• Women
• Children born into slavery
• People who won’t submit to blackmail. By that I mean that according to Exodus 21 a male Hebrew slave who was set free in his 7th year would not take with him any family gained during his slavery. He could choose to announce that he would submit, have his ear run through with an awl, and then stay with his family in exchange for his freedom.

God never changes but economic systems do (many of these bondslaves entered into it voluntarily, otherwise they were likely to starve to death! A common enough thing at the time)

Indentured servitude was a real thing. It didn’t involve manslaughter though. It didn’t mean a person got to keep any kids he made during his servitude.

Again remember that those selling themselves into service are but a portion of those slaves listed in the Bible. God tells his people to go into neighboring nations and buy slaves. Buy people! And they will serve for life. Since this appalling, and you and I agree that God never changes, then it’s fair to say that God remains appalling by this metric.

God never changes but the way of implementing a just judicial system does.judge These were laws for punishment not universal moral truths. It’s wrong to cheat on your spouse but there is no judicial law against it in our society. These were for keeping law and order. They are not universal moral laws but laws for judges.

“Punishment”?! What crime does a child commit to be born or sold into slavery? What crime does a foreigner commit by being rounded up and sold to the people of Yahweh, and to likely be beaten with no recourse? Are you suggesting that God wasn’t wise enough to demand order in his society through means apart from slavery? Was he not powerful enough? That’s the one thing that always amazes me in these discussions about slavery in the Bible. God is explained as impotent in keeping things orderly when the influence of others is involved. He can demand the death for someone who picks up sticks on the Sabbath, but can’t be bothered to tell his people that owning others is wrong. He can come this close to killing Moses because he hadn’t circumcised his boy in a timely manner, but can’t lift a finger for those enslaved people screaming and crying for relief.

You sir can continue to place God on the bench and sit on the judgement seat if you like. But at the end of the day it makes as much sense as my pet dog making judgement calls about the rules of the house.

You have repeatedly confused power with morality. In a contest of power (were he to exist) God would win. In a contest of morality, this flawed man sitting at my keyboard would win. Every. Time. One just has to approach what God’s position on slavery honestly to know this is true.

At the end of the day we have a thrice holy God whom you hate, just as all men do naturally apart from a supernatural work of grace, and it is He who sits on the judgement throne and it is you and I, yes I perhaps even more than you, who stand at the bench to be judged. I’m not using fear tactics, I’m not trying to scare you because I know this doesn’t. I have a world view, just as we all do. This is God’s world.

In first grade there was a kid in another class who on the playground would occasionally demand money under threats that his big brother would beat up those who wouldn’t pay. I never paid and I never met this big brother.

I’d like to think that if God were real that he’s looking at the people who call good that which is evil and shaking his head.

 

[Elena321]

Where is that?

biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-28.htm

“New International Version
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,…”

Deutoronomy:
22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
22:27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

**It sounds like it was a very paternalistic society.It reminds me of some muslim societies still today.
Ie;the spreading of the cloth to prove the womans virginity,the assumption that if a women didn’t scream it was cause she wanted/enjoying it etc…

What is a modern day women meant to make of all this?**

 

[Elena321]

It’s important to realise that the old testament slbeing ave is a completely different social position to the slavery you are probably thinking of (if you’re thinking of the slavery that was common in modern history Europe and the Americas.)

It would be best to call the old testament slaves “bondslaves” they were bonded to their masters for seven years and in the seventh year they had to be set free- unless they wanted to stay with their master (see Exodus 21:5-6).you may not see this but this was in essence an employment contact. We are talking about a time when people literally starved to death and many people voluntarily went into “slavery”. It was actually a great mercy that if they did choose to stay their master had to keep them on.

Many bondslaves owed their masters a debt, today people like this can end up in jail, in old testament times they worked for these masters
In the context of the old testament times far from being oppressive the system of slavery was a mercy.

I often think this was why God allowed men to continue in their error and have many wives at this time, though it is clearly against His plan for marriage. In a society like this a single woman was in serious danger of starving to death, or as they are unprotected they could have been treated violently or raped (hence care for widows being a common theme in the bible).

I encourage you to read more about the context of this time and the reasons why people became bondslaves

I understand about the context of the times but why instead didn’t God help them to evolve-eg:God could have said give women the same wage as men etc so then they could easier provide for their families without becoming slaves?

 

[Elena321]

2000 years from now, people will be asking why did God permit the enslavement, the dismemberment, the selling, the freezing, the manipulation, the killing for body parts of the unborn child.

It is allowed because people and society are given free will to make decisions.
Evil exists because we decide that it should.
Slavery existed then and exits now because our world says yes to it.
God works with us where we are at.

Ye,but God could have said not to do these things because He told them not to do other things.