What is this "scientific method" you all speak of?

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Yeah, right, like aesthetic considerations had nothing to do with the drafting of those ordinances to begin with.
Nope, it has a lot to do with orderliness and uniformity. And sometimes with downright stupidity. In some communities the use of astro-turf is forbidden, even though the “real” grass is inferior.
Yes, I suppose if Da Vinci or Picasso painted over your paint by number canvas, you and everyone else would call that vandalism, too.
Yes, because there is a large supply of empty canvasses “out there”.
This is getting deliciously absurd.
Indeed, but not in the sense as you imagine.
 
What? Are sharp and blunt not merely matters of “subjective” determination?
Sharp and blunt are relative terms. The same knife which is “sharp enough” to cut one material, is “too blunt” to cut another one. Just like “heavy” and “light”. The same objective weight (expressed in pounds) can be too heavy for one person and very light for another one. Or “close” as opposed to “far”… the examples are endless. In each case there might be an objective number which describes attribute in question, but this value says nothing about how an individual perceives that attribute.

As for the purposes of the current discussion, the “subjective / objective” differentiation is exactly what is necessary, and so your “metaphor” of “blunt knife” was just another unfortunate allegory.
 
Sharp and blunt are relative terms. The same knife which is “sharp enough” to cut one material, is “too blunt” to cut another one. Just like “heavy” and “light”. The same objective weight (expressed in pounds) can be too heavy for one person and very light for another one. Or “close” as opposed to “far”… the examples are endless. In each case there might be an objective number which describes attribute in question, but this value says nothing about how an individual perceives that attribute.

As for the purposes of the current discussion, the “subjective / objective” differentiation is exactly what is necessary, and so your “metaphor” of “blunt knife” was just another unfortunate allegory.
 
The opinion of the majority counts for nothing as far as the individual is concerned when it comes to aesthetic preferences.
You can assemble 1,00 people on a beach front property in Florida to welcome the sun as it rises above the horizon. You will hardly find a person who thinks the event is not stunningly beautiful and all thousand people great the dawn with applause. Only blind people might abstain. This can be viewed as religious beauty, since the Creator is a greater artist than anyone on Earth.

Does the opinion of the majority not count for something as far as the individual is concerned? :confused:

Would he not question whether he has missed something that the vast majority have seen?
 
Nope, it has a lot to do with orderliness and uniformity.
Why would orderliness and uniformity be “preferred” to mayhem and unsightly clutter? Why not base laws upon those qualities?

Because those are determinably less aesthetically appealing, perhaps?
 
Sharp and blunt are relative terms.
Relative to the task and objectively so.

Not merely relative to subjects, which IS the point.

A scalpel needs to be sharper than a shovel for the job it does, not merely because of subjective preference.

A surgeon does not “prefer” to use a sharp scalpel over a shovel to operate in the same sense that s/he may prefer onions over mushrooms on a pizza. This was my point about qualities being relative to ends and means rather than being MERE matters of preference or taste and nothing else.
 
As for the purposes of the current discussion, the “subjective / objective” differentiation is exactly what is necessary, …
Yes, that is the claim you keep making but we have no reason for thinking it is true and many reasons for thinking it is false.
 
Only blind people might abstain.
And those who have seen it hundreds of times, and could not be bothered to get up to see it again.
Why would orderliness and uniformity be “preferred” to mayhem and unsightly clutter? Why not base laws upon those qualities?

Because those are determinably less aesthetically appealing, perhaps?
Things are usually considered more appealing when we are exposed to it many times. I tried to steer you in the proper direction when I made a short reference to the different oblongs and which ratio is the most appealing to most people. The ratio of “1.618… to 1” is nothing intrinsically “special” and still, most people find it appealing. I was curious if you will ponder it and either realize the reason, or ask about it. Too bad it was another “wasted effort” on my side. But I am already accustomed to it.
Relative to the task and objectively so.
Of course. I was not talking about instruments, rather our relationship to the instruments along with our assessment of those instruments . You are still mixing apples and oranges.
Yes, that is the claim you keep making but we have no reason for thinking it is true and many reasons for thinking it is false.
Still you could not bring up any arguments for your opinion. I gave you a very detailed explanation about the “taste of the salty fish”, and you did not even acknowledged it. Why is that? The “weight” of an object is objective, the “heaviness” is not. And that is the point I want to explain to you.

=====================================

On the other hand, you still have not “enlightened” me just how can one prove a “universal negative proposition”. Why do you keep it to yourself? Sharing is a “virtue”, while miserly keeping to yourself is not.
 
Yes, because there is a large supply of empty canvasses “out there”.
I will happily trade you an empty canvas for your vandalized one, but I doubt you would go for it.

Thus, showing that you either do appreciate beauty for its own sake or have no class and simply wish to profit from the honest labours of those with real talent and eyes for creating truly beautiful works. That would be utterly bourgeoisie and tasteless, of you, Hee_Zen!

I would have expected much more from a mathematician. 🤓
 
I will happily trade you an empty canvas for your vandalized one, but I doubt you would go for it.
The vandalism would still be the same. It was your nonsense to talk about overpainting a Rembrandt. I challenged you to do your painting on an empty canvas, and submit it to a “beauty contest” to see if that painting would merit a “praise”. You keep changing the subject in pretty much every post you make. Rather boring, I say.

Where is your “proof” of a universal negative? That would be awesome to learn something really new, that was impossible for everyone (literally everyone!) up until you came along. Not nice to be to stingy… are you a reincarnation of Scrooge?
 
You can assemble 1,00 people on a beach front property in Florida to welcome the sun as it rises above the horizon. You will hardly find a person who thinks the event is not stunningly beautiful and all thousand people great the dawn with applause. Only blind people might abstain. This can be viewed as religious beauty, since the Creator is a greater artist than anyone on Earth.

Does the opinion of the majority not count for something as far as the individual is concerned? :confused:

Would he not question whether he has missed something that the vast majority have seen?
👍 Moreover much beauty has objective features, such as the Golden Ratio, and can be explained scientifically. Some fascinating examples are given here:

io9.com/5985588/15-uncanny-examples-of-the-golden-ratio-in-nature
 
You can assemble 1,00 people on a beach front property in Florida to welcome the sun as it rises above the horizon. You will hardly find a person who thinks the event is not stunningly beautiful and all thousand people great the dawn with applause. Only blind people might abstain. This can be viewed as religious beauty, since the Creator is a greater artist than anyone on Earth.

Does the opinion of the majority not count for something as far as the individual is concerned? :confused:

Would he not question whether he has missed something that the vast majority have seen?
You are on exceptionally tricky ground here, Charles. Do you really want to suggest that if a majority of people find something beautiful (or interesting or exciting or worth watching or…dare we say correct?) then does not that count for something?

Ever been to a contemporary art museum? Or a bull fight? Or been hunting? Of perhaps attended a hanging? What if you were the one person in that 1,000 who thought it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be.

I think you’re confusing a majority decsion (or even a universal decsion) as carrying some weight other than it being a majority (or universal) decision. Everyone likes to use extreme examples when it comes to matters of morality (it must objectively wrong to torture puppies) because you’ll get universal agreement. Try less extreme examples (hunting? Killing animals for food? Animal experiments?) that have no religious implications and it is much, much harder to get agreement on the morality of such actions.
 
And those who have seen it hundreds of times, and could not be bothered to get up to see it again.
FYI, no two sunrises are the same, unless you have a certain sunrise taped over your window, which I believe could get boring. 🤷

search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AuquML6nIXTwLJL80pRyqjubvZx4?fr=yfp-t-314-s&toggle=1&fp=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=photos%20of%20sunrise%20and%20sunset

The photos of sunrise at the above website feebly suggest the overpowering experience of beauty in the presence of a real one.

Do you also get bored looking at beautiful women? I never do. There are so few of them to look I go into shock and awe mode when I see one.
 
You are on exceptionally tricky ground here, Charles. Do you really want to suggest that if a majority of people find something beautiful (or interesting or exciting or worth watching or…dare we say correct?) then does not that count for something?

Ever been to a contemporary art museum? Or a bull fight? Or been hunting? Of perhaps attended a hanging? What if you were the one person in that 1,000 who thought it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be.
So what am I to make of a young and smart aficionado of science who has ready plenty of Carl Sagan and nothing by Einstein or Newton. Suppose he thinks Sagan must be the great scientific mind because he can understand Sagan. But he thinks Einstein and Newton don’t matter so much even if all the world thinks they do because what the world thinks really doesn’t matter. Ought he not to examine well his own worthless opinion, and what am I to think of such a worthless numbskull?
 
FYI, no two sunrises are the same…
Been there, done it, have a t-shirt to prove it. You think that the subjective opinion of many people will elevate it to an objective status. Of course many people think that the sunrise or the sunset are beautiful. But some people will find a thunderstorm with heavy lightning also beautiful, while others are simply scared of it. Some people get “attracted” to some gruesome, and macabre spectacles, like slowing down to see the blood and bones coming from highway accidents. They do not find it “beautiful”, but they are drawn to such sights.

Of course the fact is, that whatever we experience **very frequently **- we find appealing. That is why we find the ratio of “1.618… to 1” so visually pleasing. It has nothing to do with the numbers themselves, but it has everything to do that we find this ratio in abundance in nature.

The opposite is also true, when you are exposed to too many “beautiful” pictures in a museum in a short period of time, you get overwhelmed and get museum-fatigue. So this beauty will lead to boredom, while seeing the same pictures separated by longer intervals is just fine and the boredom will not “kick in”.

The whole procedure is more complicated than just a simplistic reference to the “sunrise”. But one thing is certain. “Beauty is still in the eyes of the beholder”, and the fact that many people will find the same thing “beautiful” does not make any difference.
 
:twocents:

Way I see it, is that it is all about relationships.
Some people aren’t comfortable with the concept of mystery, but that is ultimately what relationships are all about - the mystery that is oneself relating to the mystery that is other, even when that other is an aspect of oneself.

Beauty exists in the relationship between the person and the reality being witnessed.
In loving what is other, one connects to its intrinsic beauty. To say that it exists solely in the observer is solipsistic.
An appreciation of beauty has to be cultivated, btw; it isn’t democratic.

Science involves a particular kind of relationship.wherein we seek patterns in what can be identified and measured. You cannot measure beauty.
However, technology brings into sensory experience the beauty that exists in the macrocosm and what is most minute.
Because it is a social activity, it is easily compromised in our quest for honour, power and wealth.
 
So what am I to make of a young and smart aficionado of science who has ready plenty of Carl Sagan and nothing by Einstein or Newton. Suppose he thinks Sagan must be the great scientific mind because he can understand Sagan. But he thinks Einstein and Newton don’t matter so much even if all the world thinks they do because what the world thinks really doesn’t matter. Ought he not to examine well his own worthless opinion, and what am I to think of such a worthless numbskull?
I’m suggesting that what everyone agrees with is not necessarily true. Are you trying to make the case that if someone has a diiferent opinion it therefore has equal validity?

Apologies if I misread your post. It wasn’t easy to Interpret.
 
  1. What does provide the whole picture - as far as that is humanly possible?
Our ignorance does the job at the very end.
  1. What is the framework within which science operates?
A) Experience a phenomena/anomaly which shows our ignorance to the subject matter
B) Reviewing the knowledge
C) Creation a new knowledge which anomaly is resolved within
D) Go to (A)
  1. What are the principles on which science is based?
A) There exists an objective reality
B) It is possible to know
 
The whole procedure is more complicated than just a simplistic reference to the “sunrise”. But one thing is certain. “Beauty is still in the eyes of the beholder”, and the fact that many people will find the same thing “beautiful” does not make any difference.
Well yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there has to be something objectively beautiful for the eye to behold. No?

Putting aside the fact that the sun does not actually rise and set, but that the Earth is turning on its axis, when everybody beholds the sun rise in the east and set in the west every day, are we to say that everybody is having a purely subjective experience, or are we to say that everybody is having the same experience because it is the experience of a real event, not an event you can choose to interpret.
 
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