What is Tongues?

[gusano]

I might add,
It is a strange thing about the Gift of Tongues…
God Gives it to us His children
and many others who don’t know the Gift want to “manage” it for us.

“scratching the head”…

gusano

 

[Agricola]

jax8686:

Tongues can be a language of man, or a language of Angels (which classifies demonic tongues in there too considering Demons are fallen Angels) There are a surprising number of Catholics out there with the gift of tongues, but because of many peoples bad reactions, modern charismatics are almost pushed into ‘underground’ meetings because the average Catholic wont accept it. About the strong reference that tongues has no place in the Mass, i beg to differ. One parish i used to visit have a very nice worship band playing during mass. they did sing apropriate songs, and it wasnt outrageous as to take away from teh Mass as soo many people will instantly assume. towards the ends of the songs, or even during the middle, the instuments would quiet down so it was mainly only the acoustic guitar going, and in this time many people would start speaking in tongues. it was always controlled, and reverent. And just to add in, I do have the gift of tongues, i am greatful for it, it is a way for me to pray when i dont have any words, it is the perfect form of prayer from me to God. although i dont know my exact words, i konw the topic i am praying for, and that is good enough. It is an amazing gift, and i wish everyone had it and loved it. Just to throw a spin on this… i also have the Gift of prophecy… the thing is, i dont know anything much about it… could someone point me in teh right direction, or give some advice where to look…? thanx alot

Dear Jax,

There are passages of scripture that point to the reason why I doubt the origin of ejaculatory prayer during Mass. Here are a few of them.

“Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?” (1 Corinthians 14:6)

“Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (1 Corinthians 14:19)
.
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” (1 Corinthians 14:33)

“If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)

Throughout 1 Corinthians chapter 4 Paul warns against speaking in tongues without interpretation. This does not mean that it is illicit to do so in private for the purposes of self-edification and personal prayer, merely that it is not beneficial for others unless there is interpretation. I call the use of the gift of tongues for self-edification and personal prayer ejaculatory prayer. I do this in order that a distinction may be made between the gift of tongues as ejaculatory prayer and the gift of tongues as first spoken of in Acts 2:4,6:
“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.”

“And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak inhis own tongue.”

I am not blessed with either form of the gift of tongues. I have neither asked for them, nor do I intend to. I don’t believe myself to be called to their use. Not having them does not mean that I have a bias against those who are blessed with these gifts however. On the contrary, my concern is for the proper use of the gifts of tongues, particularly when there is the potential for distraction at Mass, or the intimidation of others, who, though they may possess an intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit, have not been given the same gifts.

I trust that I am not coming off as disrepectful of the gifts themselves, not of those who are blessed with them. My intention is to try to figure out exactly what they are, and in what context they should be used.

As an exercise for all, I think it worthwhile to examen 1 Corinthians chapter 14 in its entirety, as well as Acts chapter 2. What better source of knowledge on the matter could we ask for?

God bless,

Agricola

 

[Agricola]

gusano:

Hi Agricola,
Do you have the Gift of Tongues ?

Dear Gusano,

No, I have not been given the gift of tongues. Though I have several friends who have.

I believe there is a difference between “biblical” knowledge and mere “literary” knowledge of a subject. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, whereas a Shakespearian play isn’t.

No, I don’t want to “manage” your gifts for you. I am suggesting that that responsibility rests on your shoulders, as Paul suggests in his first letter to the Corinthians.

Please understand that I’m not spending my time writing in this thread for personal gratification. I don’t enjoy talking about the gift of tongues normally. People are very passionate in its defense, and I am often accused of trying to stifle the workings of the Holy Spirit. This is not what I’m doing! At most, I am asking those who are blessed with the gifts to consider, in light of Revelation, to evaluate their use of their gifts so as to use them rightly.

Finally, God bless,

Agricola

 

[pira114]

I could see why people would be skeptical. If it’s a language that no one knows, how do we know the person’s not just faking it? And if it’s a known human language, how do we know the person did not learn this language, and is claiming to have not?

Those would be the immediate questions in my mind. Now that I know what it is, I remember seeing it on TV, in one of those “tent Christian” shows. It looked fake to me. Just like the “exorcisms” they were doing to drive out the demons in people who looked fine. Unfortunately, there are so many scam artists out there, it leads one to be skeptical.

Thank you all so much for educating me.

 

[netmilsmom]

pira114:

I could see why people would be skeptical. If it’s a language that no one knows, how do we know the person’s not just faking it? And if it’s a known human language, how do we know the person did not learn this language, and is claiming to have not?

Those would be the immediate questions in my mind. Now that I know what it is, I remember seeing it on TV, in one of those “tent Christian” shows. It looked fake to me. Just like the “exorcisms” they were doing to drive out the demons in people who looked fine. Unfortunately, there are so many scam artists out there, it leads one to be skeptical.

Thank you all so much for educating me.

As with any personal revelation, the church does not require us to believe in it. Whether it be Lourdes, Akita, or tongues, we do not have to believe.
I will go with Mother Angelica, who after being in the Charismatic movement when it was popular, chose to move herself away because it, “Took the focus off the Eucharist.”
One can be in doubt that a person is receiving a gift from the Holy Spirit and not some other reason, but one can never be in doubt that Jesus comes to us right on the Altar in every Holy Mass.

 

[totustuusmaria]

gusano:

Hi James,
It is refreshing to hear from someone who experiences the Gift (s) versus someone who has a lot of literary “knowledge about it”.

Jesus tells us The Holy Spirit comes to lead us into all the Truth.
So, I would say;
Pray for and develope a Love for Truth.
Prayerfully learn all you can about The Blood of Christ.
Prayerfully learn to discern the Promptings of The Spirit.
(All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.) Rom 8:14
Get very friendly with The Book of Wisdom
Develop a Love for the Word of God that is equal to a love of The Eucharist.
Develop a healthy felowship balance with Believers as well as unbelievers.
Accept all that befalls you.
Get involve in the New Evangelism.
Get involved in The Catechumenate.
Learn how to do Romans 12: 1

We Receive it from The Altar
We give it away to all who will receive it.

God Bless,

gusano

I also speak in tougnes on a daily basis. James was right, though. There is an excessive amount of prejudice surrounding people who speak in tougnes. For example, most Traditional Catholics wouldn’t accept me even though I attend the Tridentine Mass, etc, because I speak in tougnes.

 

[Agricola]

Dear Totustuusmaria,

Is the lack of acceptance presumed or experienced? Did you speak in tongues during Mass? Regardless, consider this: Perhaps there is no prejudice against you. Perhaps those attending the Tridentine Mass were distracted by your speaking in tongues and were puzzled as to why you would bring it into the context of the Liturgy.

Saint Paul asks those with the gift of tongues to use it responsibly (1 Corinthians 14). If you follow his instruction, you shouldn’t have any problems with predjudice. Saint Paul had both the gift of tongues and the gift of prophesy, and he was inspired to write the instruction he gives.

As a side note, the word prejudice refers to judgement without prior knowledge or investigation. One who has investigated an issue can be mistaken in one’s judgement, but not prejudiced.

God bless,

Agricola

 

[gusano]

totustuusmaria:

I also speak in tougnes on a daily basis. James was right, though. There is an excessive amount of prejudice surrounding people who speak in tougnes. For example, most Traditional Catholics wouldn’t accept me even though I attend the Tridentine Mass, etc, because I speak in tougnes.

Hi Maria,
I Pray in Tongues at Mass also, Most of My Prayer of Worship in Mass is barely audible,
I doubt anyone else can hear me except God, unless someone puts their ear next to my lips,
No one has ever voiced offense by my Prayer in tongues,
But I have witnessed an instant radical change of behavior in a total stranger when I was Prompted By The Holy Spirit
to place my hand on his shoulder and Pray in Tongues boldly to Our Father.
The only offense I have ever heard is in discussions such as these where people voice their fears of “what might happen”

"Anyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus can expect to be persecuted." 2 Tim. 3: 12

Another thing I love to do, in Worship, during various parts uf the Liturgy of The Eucharist is; …
"It is my wish , then, that in every place the men shall offer prayers with blameless hands held aloft,
and free from anger and dissension." 1 Tim. 2: 8

I have never heard one objection to raising of hands either.
I am confident that Our Father enjoys it
I know I do.

Apocolypse 11: 1

gusano

 

[jax8686]

1 cor 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for the unbelievers…

nothing specifies what they dont beleive… maybe its lack of beleif in the holy Spirit and his Gifts…

1 Cor 14: 21 It is written in the law: “By people speaking strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners i will speak to this people, and even so tehy will not listen to me, says the Lord”

some people will just never get it?..

and just to add to the Need for interpretation, the preist presiding over the charismatic Mass has the gift of interpretation. as well as my close friend just learned she has the gift of interpretation as well. There are people out there with interpretation, more than any of us know. but if tongues are silenced, how can interpretation ever be used, and how can the message be shared.
(i dont remember where) Paul thanks God and praises him that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else.

I find it kind of ironic… Lots of protestants keep Jesus out of their worship and Focus on the Holy Spirit… or at least give the Spirit the front and center… where as Catholics just Ignore the Holy Spirit, especailly at mass…

 

[palmas85]

1 cor 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for the unbelievers…

nothing specifies what they dont beleive… maybe its lack of beleif in the holy Spirit and his Gifts…

1 Cor 14: 21 It is written in the law: “By people speaking strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners i will speak to this people, and even so tehy will not listen to me, says the Lord”

some people will just never get it?..

I find it kind of ironic… Lots of protestants keep Jesus out of their worship and Focus on the Holy Spirit… or at least give the Spirit the front and center… where as Catholics just Ignore the Holy Spirit, especailly at mass…

Well, I cannot speak for other Catholics, only for myself. In Catechism I was taught that the Blessed Trinity consisted of God, Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit and further that the Blessed Trinity was one divine nature in three persons, all the same, equal yet distinct.

That being so, how can we ignore the Holy Spirit in the sacrifice of the Mass? It seems to me that by the very nature of the Blessed Trinity, if we adore one we adore all. We cannot separate the three from each other due to their divine nature, even though they are three distinct persons. We were told that was a supernatural mystery, that being a truth we could not fully understand, but which we believe because we have Gods word for it.

The attempt that I see from some Charismatics to separate the Holy Spirit from the Blessed Trinity, and as stated above place Him front and center, shows me that these people don’t truly grasp the concept of the Blessed Trinity at all.

If they did, how could they feel He is ignored, when He is one and the same as Christ Jesus and God?

 

[palmas85]

1 cor 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for the unbelievers…

nothing specifies what they dont beleive… maybe its lack of beleif in the holy Spirit and his Gifts…

1 Cor 14: 21 It is written in the law: “By people speaking strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners i will speak to this people, and even so tehy will not listen to me, says the Lord”

some people will just never get it?..

and just to add to the Need for interpretation, the preist presiding over the charismatic Mass has the gift of interpretation. as well as my close friend just learned she has the gift of interpretation as well. There are people out there with interpretation, more than any of us know. but if tongues are silenced, how can interpretation ever be used, and how can the message be shared.
(i dont remember where) Paul thanks God and praises him that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else.

I find it kind of ironic… Lots of protestants keep Jesus out of their worship and Focus on the Holy Spirit… or at least give the Spirit the front and center… where as Catholics just Ignore the Holy Spirit, especailly at mass…

The more I thought about this the more concerned I became. What exactly is the Charismatic movement doing? Is it trying to somehow elevate the Holy Spirit above God and Jesus and make Him the center of Catholic worship? From this post it appears to me that is the direction that the movement is heading, if this poster knows what he is talking about. It certainly seems that he has more respect and reverence towards the Protestant style of worship than the Catholic.

I have long wondered why the Holy Spirit would have chosen to bestow his gifts more frequently upon the various Protestant Charismatics sects and lately, since 1967, on a few Catholics as well. Why did these gifts not manifest themselves more frequently since the 1st century only reappearing in masse around 1900 or so.

It has often been said that Lucifer can appear as an angel of light. Maybe in some way he is doing that now, and trying again to disrupt Gods Church as he has in the past, working from inside the Church as opposed to outside.

It could certainly explain why some feel the need to elevate the Holy Spirit above God and Christ Jesus and make Him the center of worship. I can inagine that Lucifer and his minions would truly enjoy such a thing… As I see it elevating the Holy Spirit as an individual, above God and Christ, would display a lack of belief in the Blessed Trinity, would weaken the faith immeasurably, and could lead to more of a decline in the Church.

Just my opinion, but this does worry me a lot.

 

[netmilsmom]

palmas85:

Just my opinion, but this does worry me a lot.

And you are not the only one this worried.
It was stated to me on these boards that Mother Angelica was Charismatic. I suspected that she was drawn up into it when it was all the rage in Catholic circles then found it was not correct.
In Raymond Arroyo’s book on Mother Angelica, she talks about the Charismatic Movement on page 134.

“The charismatic movement in general was going in the wrong direction. With the books and the talks I tried to bend them towards the Sacraments and the Eucharist, Our Lady and a deep interior life- not all the running around in tongues and all that kind of stuff…/snip/ Mother began to realize that people were taking the gifts rather than the Lord.”

Later in the book she totally denies the movement and what it has become stating that it took the focus off the Eucharist.

You and she are very wise, my Friend!

 

[mark_a]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Later in the book she totally denies the movement and what it has become stating that it took the focus off the Eucharist.

You and she are very wise, my Friend!

Although I don’t doubt the sincerity of some of these people speaking in tongues, I have to believe many just enjoy their “rock star”-like status. In the end, what good does speaking in tongues do? How does it make them more humble before God?

But then again, Fr. Greoschel seems to like them.

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

The more I thought about this the more concerned I became. What exactly is the Charismatic movement doing? Is it trying to somehow elevate the Holy Spirit above God and Jesus and make Him the center of Catholic worship? From this post it appears to me that is the direction that the movement is heading, if this poster knows what he is talking about. It certainly seems that he has more respect and reverence towards the Protestant style of worship than the Catholic.

I disagree Palmas,
so far,…you have only indicated second-hand knowledge concerning the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
none is from your own experience in The Holy Spirit.

I have long wondered why the Holy Spirit would have chosen to bestow his gifts more frequently upon the various Protestant Charismatics sects and lately, since 1967, on a few Catholics as well. Why did these gifts not manifest themselves more frequently since the 1st century only reappearing in masse around 1900 or so.

I disagree with this also Palmas,
It is evident you have not read the Lives of the Saints who have enjoyed the Gifts of the Spirit throughout the 2000 years since Pentecost.
The only thing you indicate reading is “1900 or so” stories.

It has often been said that Lucifer can appear as an angel of light. Maybe in some way he is doing that now, and trying again to disrupt Gods Church as he has in the past, working from inside the Church as opposed to outside.

Now this I can agree, you may have some experience with.
Have you ever considered the possibility that you could be one of those “working from inside…to disrupt the church” ?
Wait, I remember you told me you were from that church that separated after Vatican II.
so you are really a “separated catholic” posing as a “concerned Roman catholic”.

It could certainly explain why some feel the need to elevate the Holy Spirit above God and Christ Jesus and make Him the center of worship. I can inagine that Lucifer and his minions would truly enjoy such a thing… As I see it elevating the Holy Spirit as an individual, above God and Christ, would display a lack of belief in the Blessed Trinity, would weaken the faith immeasurably, and could lead to more of a decline in the Church.

Just my opinion, but this does worry me a lot.

I can see that all comes from your own (?) imagination.
How come you are so familiar with how Lucifer and his minions think and feel ?

Please allow me to tell you a True story…
**"Barnabas, Saul and John Mark…traveled as far as Paphos where they came across a Jewish magician named Bar-Jesus who posed as a prophet.
He was attached to the court of the proconsular governor Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence who had summuned Barnabas and Saul and was anxious to hear the Word of God.
But Elymas “the magician” -for that is what his name means—opposed them and sought to turn the governor away from the faith.
Saul (also known as Paul) was filled with the Holy Spirit; he stares at him and exclaimed: ‘you are an impostor and a thoroughgoung fraud, you son of Satan and enemy of all that is right! Will you never stop trying to make crooked the straight paths of the Lord ?
The Lord’s hand is upon you even now ! for a time you shall be blind, unable so much as to see the sun.’
At once a misty darkness came over him and he groped about for some one to lead him by the hand. **

Acts 13: 6-11

Whever there are Catholics who want to learn more about the Holy Spirit…
"Elymas " shows up to muddy the water, so that honest hungry people will get turned off and wander away confused.
Satan is the author of confusion.

"Therefore a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God."
Heb. 4: 9

God,
please bless hungry Catholics with Gifts & Fruits of the Holy Spirit,
and bless frauds wit Repentance and Conversion.

Amen.

gusano

 

[palmas85]

gusano:

I disagree Palmas,
so far,…you have only indicated second-hand knowledge concerning the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
none is from your own experience in The Holy Spirit.

I disagree with this also Palmas,
It is evident you have not read the Lives of the Saints who have enjoyed the Gifts of the Spirit throughout the 2000 years since Pentecost.
The only thing you indicate reading is “1900 or so” stories.

Now this I can agree, you may have some experience with.
Have you ever considered the possibility that you could be one of those “working from inside…to disrupt the church” ?
Wait, I remember you told me you were from that church that separated after Vatican II.
so you are really a “separated catholic” posing as a “concerned Roman catholic”.

I can see that all comes from your own (?) imagination.
How come you are so familiar with how Lucifer and his minions think and feel ?

Please allow me to tell you a True story…
**"Barnabas, Saul and John Mark…traveled as far as Paphos where they came across a Jewish magician named Bar-Jesus who posed as a prophet.
He was attached to the court of the proconsular governor Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence who had summuned Barnabas and Saul and was anxious to hear the Word of God.
But Elymas “the magician” -for that is what his name means—opposed them and sought to turn the governor away from the faith.
Saul (also known as Paul) was filled with the Holy Spirit; he stares at him and exclaimed: ‘you are an impostor and a thoroughgoung fraud, you son of Satan and enemy of all that is right! Will you never stop trying to make crooked the straight paths of the Lord ?
The Lord’s hand is upon you even now ! for a time you shall be blind, unable so much as to see the sun.’
At once a misty darkness came over him and he groped about for some one to lead him by the hand. **

Acts 13: 6-11

Whever there are Catholics who want to learn more about the Holy Spirit…
"Elymas " shows up to muddy the water, so that honest hungry people will get turned off and wander away confused.
Satan is the author of confusion.

"Therefore a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God."
Heb. 4: 9

God,
please bless hungry Catholics with Gifts & Fruits of the Holy Spirit,
and bless frauds wit Repentance and Conversion.

Amen.

gusano

You know Hermanito, I always liked you, even though I truly believe your soul is in danger. If you are going to talk about me personally, at least say the truth. I never told you I was from the church that separated after Vatican II. As a matter of fact hermanito, if you pull up all of my threads you will se that I repeatedly have stated my unequivocal support for the Holy Father and the Vatican. How dare you make up something to attack me personally because I brought forth something that you, perhaps blinded refuse to even see the possibility of.

When someone points out that the Holy Spirit should be the center of the Mass it flies in direct contradiction of the Churches teaching. Elevating the Holy Spirit above God in the Mass and making Him the center of worship and adoration I think borders on heresy.

As far as me being familiar with satan hermanito, I know only what I was taught and what I read and what I see. You have to know your enemy in order to defeat him hermanito. When I see a person, or a group or a movement trying to re-direct the course of the Holy sacrifice of the Mass. I will talk, I will speak and I will not be intimidated by your slurs.

You are indeed correct Hermanito, Satan does cause confusion, he does indeed, look at what you posted.

 

[netmilsmom]

mark a:

But then again, Fr. Greoschel seems to like them.

Well, you know, no one is perfect!

 

[gusano]

Be calm, Think accurately,
Who pointed out that The Holy Spirit should be the center of the Mass ?

I believe The Father is active in every Mass.
I believe Jesus Christ is active in every Mass .
I believe The Holy Spirit is active in every Mass.

How about you ?
I just happen to enjoy The Fellowship in The Holy Spirit because He reveals Jesus more intimately to Me, and Jesus reveals The Father more intimately to me…

Whom should I fear ?
What can men or demons do to me ? … since
Christ lives in me, my Hope of Glory !

gusano

 

[palmas85]

gusano:

Ok Palmas,
Be calm, Think accurately,
Who pointed out that The Holy Spirit should be the center of the Mass ?

I believe The Father is active in every Mass.
I believe Jesus Christ is active in every Mass .
I believe The Holy Spirit is active in every Mass.

How about you ?
I just happen to enjoy The Fellowship in The Holy Spirit because He reveals Jesus more intimately to Me, and Jesus reveals The Father more intimately to me…

Whom should I fear ?
What can men or demons do to me ? … since
Christ lives in me, my Hope of Glory !

gusano

Well hermanito, perhaps you should read some of the posts your fellow charismatics have posted. You decided to attack me, based on my response to someone elses post. Read his post, then question me again hermanito. I will not be intimidated by you or anyone else who thinks the Mass is lacking in reverence to the Holy Spirit and tries to change it so that the Holy Spirit is elevated and God and Jesus put down. I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit wants that Hermanito, I may be wrong, but I just don’t think that is in His agenda.

Then you write something thats obviously a complete lie about me to justify your opinion. I will not be intimidated by you hermanito. I would suggest that if you are going to say something about me or quote something I said, make sure it is the truth and not something that you made up. Me entiendes hermanito?

 

[totustuusmaria]

I can only speak from my experience: those of you who have followed by writings know that I am not a liberal; however, my experience with the Charismatic renewal has been overwhelmingly positive. I am headed toward the Priesthood, and I don’t know that I would be if it weren’t for the Charismatic Renewal, my brother is as well, I know over a dozen men who are studying for the priesthood or were just ordained who first started considering it because of the Charismatic renewal. Because of the Charismatic renewal my parish exists. We have perpetual adoration and reported miracles during it. We also have doubled in size in the last three years. We have a 99% attendance rate at Sunday liturgies and a higher than average attendance rate at daily masses. We get about 30 converts a year from protestant and a handful of baptisms. We are deeply theological and hold fidelity to the magisterium to be one of the top virtues. Our mission statement includes the line: “in the power of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the Church.” and that just about describes us. My pastor is the best priest I have ever met in my entire life. He has asked and asked the bishop for permission to offer the Tridentine Mass and been turned down. The whole parish doesn’t want it either since there is still some superstition that it would conflict with our Charismatic identity–we are a personal parish established to be a Charismatic parish.

My parish came out of the Word of God community which was started in 1967. I know personally the first Catholic to have been “baptised in the Holy Spirit” in 1967 and have heard him speak about what transpired often. I myself was prayed over for certain spiritual gifts at about 6 and have spoken in tougnes ever since. My experience of speaking in tougnes, prophecying, words of wisdom, words of knowledge, healing, and extraordinary consolations and favors has been completely positive. God has never let me leave the Church. Th Eucharist has always been the center of my devotion. My excersize of the Charismatic faith has done nothing but drive me deeper and closer to the Eucharist.

With that said, though, I said it was overwhelmingly positive, but there have been some negative aspects. Those have to do with the ecumenism that prevailed associated with the charismaticism that I experienced. This ecumenism confused me conscerning my faith for a time and, if it weren’t for the Eucharist, I may have become protestant. It has lead away from the Catholic Chuch 2-5 people (I can’t recal the exact number) that I know personally. Of course, more people have come into the Catholic Church because of it that I know, but that isn’t an exchange I’m willing to make.

My major criticisms with it are along the lines of St. John of the Cross. I think that many people in the Charismatic Renewal get focused on the phenomena and trapped in the begginer stage. Then too, I don’t believe all the “gifts” come from God. I believe some of it comes from the induvidual and some of it from the devil. I think more people need to excercise the gift of discernment of spirits. I think an essential part to being a good charismatic is to say: “Lord, I thank you for these gifts, but I don’t want these gifts because what I want is you. Do not let me become attatched to the gifts when I should be attatched to the giver.” If one maintains that attitude, one avoids most of the risks associated with the Charismatic Renewal.

With that said, it’s not much of a problem in my parish because my parish is of the Carmelite spirituality, and many people, especially Ralph Martin (a parishoner, head of Renewal Ministries and host of The Choices We Face) do everything they can to make sure that everyone knows the teachings of John of the Cross and also of Theresa of Avila.

That’s my experience. I’m being sincere. I’m not saying this because I’m a liberal or a dissident, but because my experience of the private revelations related to Charismaticism have been generally positive. In any case, praying in tougnes has produced a lot of fruits in my life. If the Church ever condemned any of this, I would abandon it in a second, as would most of the Catholics in my parish.

 

[palmas85]

totustuusmaria:

I can only speak from my experience: those of you who have followed by writings know that I am not a liberal; however, my experience with the Charismatic renewal has been overwhelmingly positive. I am headed toward the Priesthood, and I don’t know that I would be if it weren’t for the Charismatic Renewal, my brother is as well, I know over a dozen men who are studying for the priesthood or were just ordained who first started considering it because of the Charismatic renewal. Because of the Charismatic renewal my parish exists. We have perpetual adoration and reported miracles during it. We also have doubled in size in the last three years. We have a 99% attendance rate at Sunday liturgies and a higher than average attendance rate at daily masses. We get about 30 converts a year from protestant and a handful of baptisms. We are deeply theological and hold fidelity to the magisterium to be one of the top virtues. Our mission statement includes the line: “in the power of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the Church.” and that just about describes us. My pastor is the best priest I have ever met in my entire life. He has asked and asked the bishop for permission to offer the Tridentine Mass and been turned down. The whole parish doesn’t want it either since there is still some superstition that it would conflict with our Charismatic identity–we are a personal parish established to be a Charismatic parish.

My parish came out of the Word of God community which was started in 1967. I know personally the first Catholic to have been “baptised in the Holy Spirit” in 1967 and have heard him speak about what transpired often. I myself was prayed over for certain spiritual gifts at about 6 and have spoken in tougnes ever since. My experience of speaking in tougnes, prophecying, words of wisdom, words of knowledge, healing, and extraordinary consolations and favors has been completely positive. God has never let me leave the Church. Th Eucharist has always been the center of my devotion. My excersize of the Charismatic faith has done nothing but drive me deeper and closer to the Eucharist.

With that said, though, I said it was overwhelmingly positive, but there have been some negative aspects. Those have to do with the ecumenism that prevailed associated with the charismaticism that I experienced. This ecumenism confused me conscerning my faith for a time and, if it weren’t for the Eucharist, I may have become protestant. It has lead away from the Catholic Chuch 2-5 people (I can’t recal the exact number) that I know personally. Of course, more people have come into the Catholic Church because of it that I know, but that isn’t an exchange I’m willing to make.

My major criticisms with it are along the lines of St. John of the Cross. I think that many people in the Charismatic Renewal get focused on the phenomena and trapped in the begginer stage. Then too, I don’t believe all the “gifts” come from God. I believe some of it comes from the induvidual and some of it from the devil. I think more people need to excercise the gift of discernment of spirits. I think an essential part to being a good charismatic is to say: “Lord, I thank you for these gifts, but I don’t want these gifts because what I want is you. Do not let me become attatched to the gifts when I should be attatched to the giver.” If one maintains that attitude, one avoids most of the risks associated with the Charismatic Renewal.

With that said, it’s not much of a problem in my parish because my parish is of the Carmelite spirituality, and many people, especially Ralph Martin (a parishoner, head of Renewal Ministries and host of The Choices We Face) do everything they can to make sure that everyone knows the teachings of John of the Cross and also of Theresa of Avila.

That’s my experience. I’m being sincere. I’m not saying this because I’m a liberal or a dissident, but because my experience of the private revelations related to Charismaticism have been generally positive. In any case, praying in tougnes has produced a lot of fruits in my life. If the Church ever condemned any of this, I would abandon it in a second, as would most of the Catholics in my parish.

I hope that your experience is the norm, but from everything I have seen, you appear to be in a minority position in the whole movement. My prayers are with you always.