What is truth?

[teachccd]

“Touchstone is alive” would be a statement about the real world, assuming by “alive” you mean “conscious and metabolizing”, or some such. That would be a synthetic propoisition.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘absolute’ here – you haven’t said. If by “absolute” you mean “without qualification”, I would say my existence is an objective fact, a fact which obtains independent of my subjective will or anyone else’s, and allow that as “absolute” – my existence is not beholden to anyone’s subjective qualification.

-TS

ab⋅so⋅lute  /ˈæbhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəˌlut, ˌæbhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəˈlut/ sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation ab-suh-loot, ab-suh-loot] sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA

***–adjective ***1.free from imperfection; complete; perfect: *absolute liberty. *2.not mixed or adulterated; pure: *absolute alcohol. *3.complete; outright: *an absolute lie; an absolute denial. *4.free from restriction or limitation; not limited in any way: *absolute command; absolute freedom. *5.unrestrained or unlimited by a constitution, counterbalancing group, etc., in the exercise of governmental power, esp. when arbitrary or despotic: *an absolute monarch. ***6.viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic: ***absolute knowledge. *7.positive; certain: *absolute in opinion; absolute evidence. *8.Grammar. a.relatively independent syntactically. The construction It being Sunday in It being Sunday, the family went to church is an absolute construction.b.(of a usually transitive verb) used without an object, as the verb give in *The charity asked him to give.*c.(of an adjective) having its noun understood, not expressed, as poor in *The poor are always with us.*d.characterizing the phonological form of a word or phrase occurring by itself, not influenced by surrounding forms, as not in is not (as opposed to isn’t), or will in they will (as opposed to they’ll). Compare sandhi. 9.Physics. a.independent of arbitrary standards or of particular properties of substances or systems: *absolute humidity. *b.pertaining to a system of units, as the centimeter-gram-second system, based on some primary units, esp. units of length, mass, and time.c.pertaining to a measurement based on an absolute zero or unit: *absolute temperature. *10.Education. noting or pertaining to the scale of a grading system based on an individual’s performance considered as representing his or her knowledge of a given subject regardless of the performance of others in a group: *The math department marks on an absolute scale. *Compare curve (def. 10).11.Climatology. noting or pertaining to the highest or lowest value of a meteorological quantity recorded during a given, usually long, period of time: *absolute maximum temperature. *12.Mathematics. (of an inequality) indicating that the expression is true for all values of the variable, as x2 + 1 > 0 for all real numbers x; unconditional. Compare conditional (def. 6).13.Computers. machine-specific and requiring no translation (opposed to symbolic ): *absolute coding; absolute address. *
***–noun ***14.something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc. (opposed to relative ).15.**the absolute, **a.something that is free from any restriction or condition.b.something that is independent of some or all relations.c.something that is perfect or complete.d.(in Hegelianism) the world process operating in accordance with the absolute idea.

**Origin: **
1350–1400; ME < L absolūtus free, unrestricted, unconditioned (ptp. of absolvere to absolve ), equiv. to ab- ab- + solū- loosen + -tus ptp. suffixhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

 

[annie678]

What is truth?

I am not a big philosopher and have learned that splitting hairs can lead me astray, so this might be too simple.

My definition of truth is Jesus Christ and all things that lead me to Him. The rest is just man’s perception and our attempts to make sense or understand the truth. I’ve learned that when I need clarification, I must be still and wait. The more I do this, the more clearly I see Truth, the less I am lead astray, and when I am the more easily I am led back.

God bless you and your confirmation candidates. I am serving as a sponsor for a young man being confirmed next spring and doing so has brought me great joy!!

 

[teachccd]

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘absolute’ here – you haven’t said. If by “absolute” you mean “without qualification”, I would say my existence is an objective fact, a fact which obtains independent of my subjective will or anyone else’s, and allow that as “absolute” – my existence is not beholden to anyone’s subjective qualification.

-TS

What exactly is an “objective fact”?? Please tell me what you mean and how that differs from absolute truth…

 

[Eucharisted]

What exactly is an “objective fact”?? Please tell me what you mean and how that differs from absolute truth…

“Objective fact” is a nonsensical term used by people who are ignorant of philosophy and science. It’s how people ignore some facts and pay attention to others, because they clasify some as objective - and so true - and others are not objective - and so not true or at least unable to be known as true. So any time someone tells you about an “objective fact”, you can be sure they are ignorant of what they’re talking about.

 

[teachccd]

I am not a big philosopher and have learned that splitting hairs can lead me astray, so this might be too simple.

My definition of truth is Jesus Christ and all things that lead me to Him. The rest is just man’s perception and our attempts to make sense or understand the truth. I’ve learned that when I need clarification, I must be still and wait. The more I do this, the more clearly I see Truth, the less I am lead astray, and when I am the more easily I am led back.

God bless you and your confirmation candidates. I am serving as a sponsor for a young man being confirmed next spring and doing so has brought me great joy!!

Great!! Congratulations on being a sponsor!! As you can see in this thread our definition isn’t necessarily as clear to those who do not have God as their source. Without an absolute moral truth (God) an individual can view anything as relational and therefore everything becomes a perception as compared or contrasted to something else. And since everything eventually changes, so does that perception. In our understanding, God does not change therefore moral truths can never change.

It is an interesting topic by which all of us will be deemed accountable as even an atheist cannot avoid the origins of his own existence. And that origin is either an absolute origin or a relational jabberwock.

God bless you…teachccd

 

[MindOverMatter]

2+2=4. Is that not absolute truth?

You will drive yourself insane speaking to a relativist, since the truth is only what they want it to be; the truth is merely the whim of their emotions. To believe in relativism, is ultimately selfish. I hope that the following will be more enlightening.

Absolute Truth According To Being
We can speak of truth in two ways. There is beings and concepts. When we speak of “absolute truth” in terms of being, we are talking about that which is the ground of all that is real, as apposed to “not real”, and is the reason for why there are real things. Absolute truth is synonymous to that which is absolute being; it is perfect being. Absolute Truth is that which is unchanging, and is thus synonymous with that which is existentially timeless and eternal. God is necessary; thus God is absolute reality. But we must understand that God does not participate in reality; God is reality. God does not participate in absolute truth; God is absolute truth. But when we speak of “created people”, we are not talking about that which is absolute truth, but rather we are talking about that which participates in absolute truth. Absolute being is the basis of all logical truth and epistemological truth. There cannot be a reality that is by definition absolutely nothing, for nothing is not real. Thus there is only absolute reality, that which is, and that which participates in reality. Thus absolute being is the eternal ground of logic because it is by nature “existence” or “absolute reality”; and for that reason a thing cannot be and not be at the same time. God is the reason why 2 + 2 = 4. Gods very being is the cause of that truth. Not that when i say participate, this does not mean that we are a substantial part of what is reality by nature; for absolute reality is transcendent of parts in respect of its natures. When i say participate i mean that we are made actual by reality, and that we are sustained in being by that which is existence by nature. But we are not in any way shape or form the nature that is existence, because existence by definition cannot begin to exist of fail to exist.

Absolute Truth According To Morality.
A human act can be objectively good or bad, but this is only true if the fundamental ground of all contingent reality is the eternal/timeless “absolute good”; not just in “act”, but in being. Thus the absolute good must be understood as the absolute being spoken of in the first paragraph. In God, act and being are one, thus “existence” is an eternal act or expression of perfect goodness by definition of its being. Thus any person that comes to exist in such a reality is, as a result of that eternal expression, morally accountable for their personal acts. But to understand this more clearly we must recognize that God is, by definition of his being, “perfect-love”, which means that God is perfectly giving of good things for nothing more then the fact that it is good, and goodness is the timeless expression of Gods being. We know this to be true because God has revealed himself to be the giver of being; and to give love eternally is to love perfectly. It is true that God is love because God is being, and being is absolute truth, and the absolute truth eternally acts out love. Existence is love, and so to act against love is to act against Existence. Thus for a person to act selfishly is to retain the good of existence for ones self in spite of other creatures; which contradicts the eternal will of existence, and promotes the destruction of creation. To be selfish is to not share the greater good. We are at one with God when we share the love of God, and the only way to truly share the love of God is to love God, whom is eternal love itself.

 

[GEddie]

“You can’t handle the truth!” -----Jack Nicholson

(sorry, couldn’t resist)

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Touchstone]

What exactly is an “objective fact”?? Please tell me what you mean and how that differs from absolute truth…

Objective means that the proposition is not dependent on any mind’s will or opinion. An objective fact is a statement about reality that corresponds to the state of affairs of the world regardless of anyone’s opinion about.

I’m not sure what you mean by “absolute” truth, which as I said, to me means “without qualifications”. Truth, if it is to have any meaning at all, needs some qualifications, just like those I provided for “objective”. So, I must just be confused by what you mean when you use “absolute” as an adjective for truth.

Or do you simply mean “objective”, here, as I’ve defined it, above?

-TS

 

[teachccd]

Objective means that the proposition is not dependent on any mind’s will or opinion. An objective fact is a statement about reality that corresponds to the state of affairs of the world regardless of anyone’s opinion about.

Isn’t that without qualifications which is what absolute truth is? Isn’t a person’s will and/or opinion involved in a qualification? What are the elements of a qualification if not the discernment of those acknowledging the objective fact?

I’m not sure what you mean by “absolute” truth, which as I said, to me means “without qualifications”. Truth, if it is to have any meaning at all, needs some qualifications, just like those I provided for “objective”. So, I must just be confused by what you mean when you use “absolute” as an adjective for truth.

Or do you simply mean “objective”, here, as I’ve defined it, above?

-TS

Your contradiction disolves your definition. If your existence requires no qualification and is merely an “objective” fact and the state of affairs dictates that indeed you do exist then isn’t that assent of the will an automatic qualification of truth? How, then, can you express your existence to others without some qualification? Wouldn’t that then make your existence an absolute truth extenuating from the objective fact? In other words, when you tell someone about yourself it must first be assumed that you exist. So, then, wouldn’t anything you say stem from the objective fact and that, in and of itself, result in absolute truth?

 

[Touchstone]

Isn’t that without qualifications which is what absolute truth is?

I don’t know, and you seem reluctant to answer, just offering questions back. I don’t use the term “absolute truth”, because when pressed on it, I have to admit it’s not meaningful or precise in any practical way. I do think “objective” is both meaningful and practical as an adjective for truth, so I use that. But someone who uses the term “absolute truth” signals to me someone who is confused. So I am asking for some clarity on what you mean by “absolute truth”. What makes a proposition “X” an absolute truth, or not?

Isn’t a person’s will and/or opinion involved in a qualification?

No, and the qualification I gave expressly eliminated that. “Objective” implies a state of affairs that is not affected by any opinion or will.

What are the elements of a qualification if not the discernment of those acknowledging the objective fact?

Objectivity is an ideal, not a practical adjective, in the same way a “perfect circle” is an ideal, not something you will ever find in the real world. Like the circles we can find in nature, some of which are very close approximations of a “perfect circle”, objective truths are approximate to one degree or another, with some being much better approximations than others. So, a consensus reading of a thermometer by a thousand scientists would improve the objective credentials of the reading over my own individual reading of the temperature on the thermometer. A thousand independent measurements of the room temperature, each using a different thermometer, and each attested by the reading of a thousand observers would be even better. We can reasonably discount our likelihood of bias or error as these independent and consilient points of evidence are added.

We can imagine that reality isn’t real, or that somehow we are just imagining that all of these reports are fantasies, or part of some pervasive conspiracy, but the parsimonious conclusion is that these reports reflect actual readings as reported by actual observers.

Your contradiction disolves your definition. If your existence requires no qualification and is merely an “objective” fact and the state of affairs dictates that indeed you do exist then isn’t that assent of the will an automatic qualification of truth?

An objective fact, by definition obtains independently of my will or my choosing to accept it or not. I am free to reject it, ignore it, or accept it, but the facts don’t care. They are what they are, regardless of what I think about them.

How, then, can you express your existence to others without some qualification?

I can’t, which is why I think it’s important to qualify that claim with objective verification. It’s also why “absolute” is problematic here as a term, and confounding to conversations like this rather than illuminative. I have a “self-evident” sense of existence through my consciousnes, but that is a subjective experience. I can, however, qualify my my existence by observation and verification by outside parties, which provides more and more credibility as to my existence as an objective fact as I accumulate more and more independent and affirmative reports of my existence.

Wouldn’t that then make your existence an absolute truth extenuating from the objective fact? In other words, when you tell someone about yourself it must first be assumed that you exist. So, then, wouldn’t anything you say stem from the objective fact and that, in and of itself, result in absolute truth?

First, “telling” presupposes existence. If I say “I cannot communicate in English”, I have refuted myself on transcendental grounds because my sentence must be false in order for it to be true. I must be able to communicate in English to deny that very ability in that sentence.

Similarly, any communication at all presupposes my existence. But a presupposition is not an objective fact. To establish my experience of existence and communication from that, I would need some kind of method for verifying that independently – the witness of other minds, for example, or instrumentation that can detect my existence/communication, for another. To the extent I’m able to establish evidence that obtains independent of my will or desires, I will have substantiated my existence as an objective fact.

-TS

 

[teachccd]

An objective fact, by definition obtains independently of my will or my choosing to accept it or not. I am free to reject it, ignore it, or accept it, but the facts don’t care. They are what they are, regardless of what I think about them.

-TS

ab⋅so⋅lute

/ˈæbhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəˌlut, ˌæbhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəˈlut/ sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation ab-suh-loot, ab-suh-loot] sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA

***–adjective ***1.free from imperfection; complete; perfect: *absolute liberty. *2.not mixed or adulterated; pure: *absolute alcohol. *3.complete; outright: *an absolute lie; an absolute denial. *4.free from restriction or limitation; not limited in any way: *absolute command; absolute freedom. *5.unrestrained or unlimited by a constitution, counterbalancing group, etc., in the exercise of governmental power, esp. when arbitrary or despotic: *an absolute monarch. *6.viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic: *absolute knowledge. ***7.****positive; certain: ***absolute in opinion; absolute evidence. *8.Grammar. a.relatively independent syntactically. The construction It being Sunday in It being Sunday, the family went to church is an absolute construction.b.(of a usually transitive verb) used without an object, as the verb give in *The charity asked him to give.*c.(of an adjective) having its noun understood, not expressed, as poor in *The poor are always with us.*d.characterizing the phonological form of a word or phrase occurring by itself, not influenced by surrounding forms, as not in is not (as opposed to isn’t), or will in they will (as opposed to they’ll). Compare sandhi. 9… (Shortened for brevity of posting) 11.Climatology. noting or pertaining to the highest or lowest value of a meteorological quantity recorded during a given, usually long, period of time: *absolute maximum temperature. *12.Mathematics. (of an inequality) indicating that the expression is true for all values of the variable, as x2 + 1 > 0 for all real numbers x; unconditional. Compare conditional (def. 6).13.Computers. machine-specific and requiring no translation (opposed to symbolic ): *absolute coding; absolute address. *
***–noun ***14.**something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc. (**opposed to relative ).15.**the absolute, **a.something that is free from any restriction or condition.**b.****something that is independent of some or all relations.**c.something that is perfect or complete.d.(in Hegelianism) the world process operating in accordance with the absolute idea.

**Origin: **
1350–1400; ME < L absolūtus free, unrestricted, unconditioned (ptp. of absolvere to absolve ), equiv. to ab- ab- + solū- loosen + -tus ptp. suffixhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

Related forms:
***ab⋅so⋅lute⋅ness, noun ***

Synonyms:
***2. ***unadulterated, sheer, unqualified, undiluted, uncontaminated. ***4. ***total, unconditional. Absolute, unqualified, utter all mean unmodified. Absolute implies an unquestionable finality: *an absolute coward. *Unqualified means without reservations or conditions: *an unqualified success. *Utter expresses totality or entirety: *an utter failure. **5. ***autocratic, dictatorial, totalitarian. ***6. ***categorical. ***7. ***unequivocal, definite, sure.

Antonyms:
***1. ***imperfect, flawed. ***2. ***mixed, diluted, contaminated. 4. qualified. ***6. ***relative.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

---

What part of the above definition can you say does not parallel itself with your definition of “objective” fact? Please note what I’ve highlighted in red and tell me how this differs from your definition of objective truth… And remember that if you look I do not answer everything with a question. I am giving you my definition of absolute. Now clarify the differences…and I sincerely thank you for your time and congeniality. This is a very controversial topic and I value your viewpoints.

 

[jmcrae]

I am a confirmation facilitator and our group had a pretty deep discussion on their understanding of truth. Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:38, “what is truth”? Many youths today believe that what is true for someone is their truth. Muslems have their truth and that’s o.k. since that is what truth is for them.

We are on the topic of morality and I wanted to establish the definition of absolute truth as opposed to moral relativism. We discussed faith and reason and how faith is not blind but evidential. It was the most intense discussion thus far.

So now I pose to you: What is truth?

Without having read the rest of the thread, yet …

Truth is the meaning of the facts.

 

[hatsoff]

So basically then, every statement that you make is jabberwock.

That’s nonsense. Literally.

So then how do I benefit listening to you and any relational statements that you have to offer?

You asked a few questions, and so I assumed you were interested in hearing accurate answers. I have provided some such.

If it is only truth to you then why express it to me?

Because it’s not “only truth to” me. It’s truth to everyone who understands the English language, a group which appears to include you.

Please be reiminded that this is for conversation only as I do not mean to sound uncharitable. It is just my thoughts and not anything against you.

No worries.

 

[yablabo]

I am a confirmation facilitator and our group had a pretty deep discussion on their understanding of truth. Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:38, “what is truth”? Many youths today believe that what is true for someone is their truth. Muslems have their truth and that’s o.k. since that is what truth is for them.

We are on the topic of morality and I wanted to establish the definition of absolute truth as opposed to moral relativism. We discussed faith and reason and how faith is not blind but evidential. It was the most intense discussion thus far.

So now I pose to you: What is truth?

Truth is the conformity of the intellect upon reality.

– Nicole

 

[teachccd]

Without having read the rest of the thread, yet …

Truth is the meaning of the facts.

Oh, my friend, please read this thread and then I ask for a little HELP!! :banghead:

 

[teachccd]

That’s nonsense. Literally.

You asked a few questions, and so I assumed you were interested in hearing accurate answers. I have provided some such.

Because it’s not “only truth to” me. It’s truth to everyone who understands the English language, a group which appears to include you.

No worries.

What is truth to everyone who speaks the English language? Yes, (thank you for observing that I speak english ,) but what makes you so sure that you hold the truth? If truth is relational, as you stated earlier, then isn’t any concept only as true as how it relates to something else? The reason why I said that anything you said is jabberwocky is not nonsensical when viewed in this manner. If you are indeed providing “accurate” information but it is not relative to my belief system then it is as jabberwocky to me as anything I say is to you.

Anyway, again I emphasize that I appreciate your time and your views and I intend to remain charitable as I hope to portray through a keyboard…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Truth is the conformity of the intellect upon reality.

– Nicole

I like that, Nicole. After reading through this thread and another one along the same lines, my view of reality is becoming obscured…

 

[crazzeto]

I am a confirmation facilitator and our group had a pretty deep discussion on their understanding of truth. Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:38, “what is truth”? Many youths today believe that what is true for someone is their truth. Muslems have their truth and that’s o.k. since that is what truth is for them.

We are on the topic of morality and I wanted to establish the definition of absolute truth as opposed to moral relativism. We discussed faith and reason and how faith is not blind but evidential. It was the most intense discussion thus far.

So now I pose to you: What is truth?

Ah yes, the current trend of total relitivism… It extends far beyond just faith and morals, it’s finally made it’s way to scientific analysisb(at least on the internetz). Ironically by trying to make everything true in a “live and let live” attitude they’ve made nothing true. If you ask me, in the world of… reality… God is Truth, just as God is Love. Start there, hold fast to that and everything else becomes clear.

 

[teachccd]

Ah yes, the current trend of total relitivism… It extends far beyond just faith and morals, it’s finally made it’s way to scientific analysisb(at least on the internetz). Ironically by trying to make everything true in a “live and let live” attitude they’ve made nothing true. If you ask me, in the world of… reality… God is Truth, just as God is Love. Start there, hold fast to that and everything else becomes clear.

You felt my pain and for that I will be forever in your debt…God bless you…teachccd

 

[jmcrae]

2+2=4. Is that not absolute truth?

Not necessarily. For as long as the first two and the second two are alike, they come together to equal four. They can never equal five (or any other random number), but if they are ever not alike, then at that time, they can only ever equal two and two, without ever coming to four.

For example, 2 apples plus 2 apples = 4 apples.

2 apples plus 2 oranges = 4 fruits, but only two apples and two oranges - never four of each, nor four of either.

2 apples and 2 rabbits can only = 2 apples and 2 rabbits - they don’t have enough in common to become four of anything.

Mathematically, 2+2=4, all the time - this is a fact. But as soon as you begin to apply meaning (truth) to it, then it becomes ambiguous - you have to know what it is that you are counting, before you know for certain whether it is true or not.

That isn’t relativism, though - that’s just the practical application of the mathematical principle.